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tesco samoa February 16th, 2004 05:10 PM

OT- Rights in the USA and Canada and the world
 
Hi I read this in the latest

CRYPTO-GRAM
I was wondering what my friends down south think about it. It raises some interesting questions. As this is starting to occur in Canada as well I am looking for opinions. Also I would like opinions of other ways that other countries handle these issues.
February 15, 2004

by Bruce Schneier
Founder and CTO
Counterpane Internet Security, Inc.
schneier@counterpane.com


Toward Universal Surveillance



Last month the Supreme Court let stand the Justice Department's right
to secretly arrest non-citizen residents. Combined with the
government's power to designate foreign prisoners of war as "enemy
combatants" in order to ignore international treaties regulating their
incarceration, and their power to indefinitely detain U.S. citizens
without charge or access to an attorney, the United States is looking
more and more like a police state.

Since 9/11, the Justice Department has asked for, and largely received,
additional powers that allow it to perform an unprecedented amount of
surveillance of American citizens and visitors. The USA PATRIOT Act,
passed in haste after 9/11, started the ball rolling. In December, a
provision slipped into an appropriations bill allowing the FBI to
obtain personal financial information from banks, insurance companies,
travel agencies, real estate agents, stockbrokers, the U.S. Postal
Service, jewelry stores, casinos, and car dealerships without a warrant
-- because they're all construed as financial institutions. Starting
this year, the U.S. government is photographing and fingerprinting
foreign visitors into this country from all but 27 other countries.

The litany continues. CAPPS-II, the government's vast computerized
system for probing the backgrounds of all passengers boarding flights,
will be fielded this year. Total Information Awareness, a program that
would link diverse databases and allow the FBI to collate information
on all Americans, was halted at the federal level after a huge public
outcry, but is continuing at a state level with federal funding. Over
New Year's, the FBI collected the names of 260,000 people staying at
Las Vegas hotels. More and more, at every level of society, the "Big
Brother is Watching You" style of total surveillance is slowly becoming
a reality.

Security is a trade off. It makes no sense to ask whether a particular
security system is effective or not -- otherwise you'd all be wearing
bulletproof vests and staying immured in your home. The proper
question to ask is whether the trade-off is worth it. Is the level of
security gained worth the costs, whether in money, in liberties, in
privacy, or in convenience?

This is a personal decision, and one greatly influenced by the
situation. For most of us, bulletproof vests are not worth the cost
and inconvenience. For some of us, home burglar alarm systems
are. And most of us lock our doors at night.

Terrorism is no different. We need to weigh each security
countermeasure. Is the additional security against the risks worth the
costs? Are there smarter things we can be spending our money on? How
does the risk of terrorism compare with the risks in other aspects of
our lives: automobile accidents, domestic violence, industrial
pollution, and so on? Are there costs that are just too expensive for
us to bear?

Unfortunately, it's rare to hear this level of informed debate. Few
people remind us how minor the terrorist threat really is. Rarely do
we discuss how little identification has to do with security, and how
broad surveillance of everyone doesn't really prevent terrorism. And
where's the debate about what's more important: the freedoms and
liberties that have made America great or some temporary security?

Instead, the DOJ (fueled by a strong police mentality inside the
Administration) is directing our nation's political changes in response
to 9/11. And it's making trade-offs from its own subjective
perspective: trade-offs that benefit it even if they are to the
detriment of others.

From the point of view of the DOJ, judicial oversight is unnecessary
and unwarranted; doing away with it is a better trade off. They think
collecting information on everyone is a good idea, because they are
less concerned with the loss of privacy and liberty. Expensive
surveillance and data mining systems are a good trade-off for them
because more budget means even more power. And from their perspective,
secrecy is better than openness; if the police are absolutely
trustworthy, then there's nothing to be gained from a public process.

If you put the police in charge of security, the trade-offs they make
result in measures that resemble a police state.

This is wrong. The trade-offs are larger than the FBI or the
DOJ. Just as a company would never put a single department in charge
of its own budget, someone above the narrow perspective of the DOJ
needs to be balancing the country's needs and making decisions about
these security trade-offs.

The laws limiting police power were put in place to protect us from
police abuse. Privacy protects us from threats by government,
corporations, and individuals. And the greatest strength of our nation
comes from our freedoms, our openness, our liberties, and our system of
justice. Ben Franklin once said: "Those who would give up essential
liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor
safety." Since 9/11 Americans have squandered an enormous amount of
liberty, and we didn't even get any temporary safety in return.

narf poit chez BOOM February 16th, 2004 07:05 PM

Re: OT- Rights in the USA and Canada and the world
 
gee, pretty soon democratic russia might be fighting communist us.

Slynky February 16th, 2004 07:24 PM

Re: OT- Rights in the USA and Canada and the world
 
I fear you may have opened a can of worms (as we say in the southern part of the US).

I'm as cynical as a guy can be. Having worked for the government for most of my life, it makes it even worse. Although I don't do much now in the way of what I used to do when I was in the military...I still keep my "view" on what the government here does. When I was in the military, I worked in intel (for most of my time). I even worked at the infamous NSA (for outsiders, that's the National Security Agency) facility for a year.

So, accordingly, I have a lot of opinions on the subject you mention:

1- I love my country and wouldn't really want to live anywhere else but the US has its faults. It's a bully nation. An arrogant nation. And a nation filled with dirty tricks. But, I tell myself, perhaps it has to be that way. I'll never really know or understand fully, I suspect.

2- I wonder if the Patriot Act (one need only look at the name to see the "spin" already starting...JEEZ!) was something the government wanted to do all along and just found the WTC and 9-11 disaster the proper excuse. They needed a good reason to inact this stuff and the WTC gave it to them. Before that, it would never have been approved.

3- The sort of thing you mention below reminds me of WW2..where we assumed anyone with slanted eyes (I don't mean that in a bad way...just using a somewhat derogative term for effect) was a potential enemy...and confined them. We are still paying reparations for that. I certainly wouldn't want to be "pigeon-holed" because of the way I looked!

4- It also reminds me of the US Civil War. (see the Gods and Generals thread http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) As a study in college, I learned a lot about how civil rights were restricted during that time as well. And for the same reason...to preserve and protect the Union. The president broke more rules during that time than had ever been broken before. For example, if a journalist in the North wrote something negative about the North's stance, s/he could be jailed for no reason at all. Funding for the war broke all sorts of regulations and laws. But, alas, I sort of understand.

5- I frequent a convenience store down the street and the guy is from the Middle East. I forget where. But he is the friendlist guy I've met in a store. I sometimes spend 1 minute buying stuff and 5 minutes chatting. Once in a while, I wonder if he could be doing any thing that was against the US and that I am an idiot. When that happens, I hate myself for thinking it...then I think to myself, what if I am wrong and something does happen. It's a problem and worry that a lot of people may have, I think.

6- I tell myself that I shouldn't worry about increased "monitoring" by the government. After all, if I'm doing nothing wrong...I have nothing to worry about. But, on the other hand, I don't like the idea that the government may be reading this thread and wondering if I'm a threat. Who knows what they are capable of thinking and doing when they read the least bit of dissention into a comment like this.

As I said, you may have opened a can of worms here.

Rollo February 16th, 2004 07:46 PM

Re: OT- Rights in the USA and Canada and the world
 
Quote:

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
gee, pretty soon democratic russia might be fighting communist us.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">this has nothing to do with communism.

narf poit chez BOOM February 16th, 2004 07:59 PM

Re: OT- Rights in the USA and Canada and the world
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Rollo:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
gee, pretty soon democratic russia might be fighting communist us.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">this has nothing to do with communism. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">police state=communism+-2.

tesco samoa February 16th, 2004 08:06 PM

Re: OT- Rights in the USA and Canada and the world
 
Slynky I do not think you opened a can of worms.

I value your opinion.

And please no country bashing. I wish to keep this thread to its original intent and that is the issue of Rights and Freedoms.

Slynky February 16th, 2004 08:14 PM

Re: OT- Rights in the USA and Canada and the world
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Rollo:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
gee, pretty soon democratic russia might be fighting communist us.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">this has nothing to do with communism. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">We, in the US, DO have a sort of communism. We just don't use that word. But, we have a tax system based upon ability to pay, and a welfare system that takes care of those who don't/can't do it. It's kind of like a communism with a twist, so to speak.

narf poit chez BOOM February 16th, 2004 08:14 PM

Re: OT- Rights in the USA and Canada and the world
 
and my point is that there being eroded in the us and somewhat in canada 'for our own good'.

Rollo February 16th, 2004 08:22 PM

Re: OT- Rights in the USA and Canada and the world
 
Quote:

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
police state=communism+-2.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, that is just plain wrong.

police state ~ fascism.

Communism has nothing to do with that.

[ February 16, 2004, 18:25: Message edited by: Rollo ]

narf poit chez BOOM February 16th, 2004 08:25 PM

Re: OT- Rights in the USA and Canada and the world
 
communism is forced socialism.

your ball.

Rollo February 16th, 2004 08:26 PM

Re: OT- Rights in the USA and Canada and the world
 
Communism doesn't have to be forced. That's my point.

Slynky February 16th, 2004 08:30 PM

Re: OT- Rights in the USA and Canada and the world
 
Quote:

Originally posted by tesco samoa:
Slynky I do not think you opened a can of worms.

I value your opinion.

And please no country bashing. I wish to keep this thread to its original intent and that is the issue of Rights and Freedoms.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks, Tesco!

Let me say right off...this is one of my favortie forums. Although we don't live down the street from each other, in this world of the Internet, it's the next best things. It is rare, if ever, that I will lash out at someone or say that something they wrote is stupid. I try to treat this "distance" that the Internet gives us as if the guy were in the room with me.

Having said that...I don't think I was picking on a country. If I was desparaging a country, it was the US. As a citizen, and as one who fought in a war and one who served to help protect the freedom we have in the US, I feel I have the right to say things about the US that aren't sweet.

As a person who has visited over 25 countries, one who enjoys the exchange and views of people of different countries, I think I am the Last person to find fault with another country because all of them have their good points and bad points...same as the US.

And, I hope, I spoke to the rights and freedoms of a country as you initially started...the US...and what they were doing. Because, when you reduce the average human to their basic desires, I think it comes down to this: All want the opportunity to grow up safely, get married, have a family, and give them the best life they can have. No matter where they live!

So, to summarize, I don't think I was doing any "country bashing". If I misunderstood the initial post, please correct me.

Hehe, and I said, YOU opened the can of worms...not me...LOL http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Roanon February 16th, 2004 08:31 PM

Re: OT- Rights in the USA and Canada and the world
 
police state ~ fascism ~ communism.

No big difference living under Hitler or Stalin.

narf poit chez BOOM February 16th, 2004 08:31 PM

Re: OT- Rights in the USA and Canada and the world
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Rollo:
Communism doesn't have to be forced. That's my point.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">unforced communism is socialism. that's my point.

Slynky February 16th, 2004 08:34 PM

Re: OT- Rights in the USA and Canada and the world
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Rollo:
Communism doesn't have to be forced. That's my point.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And that is true. In the smallest of environments, a commune (the source of the word, "communism") is usually a happily agreed-upon style of living. "We" tried it in the US during the Hippie days and it rarely (in actuality) ever worked. Why? Because human nature, IMHO, tends toward greed. To get MORE than they are entitled to...or to do less than they should to support the community.

Roanon February 16th, 2004 08:35 PM

Re: OT- Rights in the USA and Canada and the world
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Rollo:
Communism doesn't have to be forced. That's my point.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Without force, you will not be able to keep the majority of people unhappy.

Slynky February 16th, 2004 08:41 PM

Re: OT- Rights in the USA and Canada and the world
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Roanon:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Rollo:
Communism doesn't have to be forced. That's my point.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Without force, you will not be able to keep the majority of people unhappy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have to disagree. Now...please understand...I know your country is Germany. And know this: If I had to live in another country besides the US, it would be a tough choice between Germany and Australia.

But, I disagree with the "force" comment. (unless "force" is a different definition)

To have a "successful" country, you need only keep the population happy enough to not revolt. That doesn't take force. It takes giving them things. If they have enough things to keep them happy, they will not revolt. Force, on the other hand, is only playing for time...sooner or later, there will be a revolt.

Roanon February 16th, 2004 08:42 PM

Re: OT- Rights in the USA and Canada and the world
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Slynky:
it rarely (in actuality) ever worked. Why? Because human nature, IMHO, tends toward greed. To get MORE than they are entitled to...or to do less than they should to support the community.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Exactly. But greed is the main driving force of mankind. And this is not generally bad. Take away the greed, and humanity would still live in caves using stone tools (if at all).
Agreed, there should be regulations and limits, but the only way to make everyone communistically equal is to downgrade everything to the lowest possible level - and let it stay there. Communism = nice theorey, just sucks in reality.

Slynky February 16th, 2004 08:48 PM

Re: OT- Rights in the USA and Canada and the world
 
Roanon said, "Communism = nice theorey, just sucks in reality."

I think we agree! Sometimes, it sucks to admit humanity has built-in faults.

BTW, your English is wonderful! As good as Alneyan's.

Roanon February 16th, 2004 08:49 PM

Re: OT- Rights in the USA and Canada and the world
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Slynky:
To have a "successful" country, you need only keep the population happy enough to not revolt. That doesn't take force. It takes giving them things. If they have enough things to keep them happy, they will not revolt.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yep. This was something already known to the Romans - the emperors knew that the people needed nothing else than "panem et circenses" - bread and games.
Problem with communism, you cannot give under such a system, only deny. Because it is easy to deny equally, but giving has to start somewhere, to come from somewhere i.e. something has to be developed somewhere. This would mean unequality, or "greedy taking more than they are entitled to" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif somewhere. And this would be in contrast to basic communistic principles.

tesco samoa February 16th, 2004 10:15 PM

Re: OT- Rights in the USA and Canada and the world
 
Slynky... I am sorry I did not say you were country bashing.... Maybe I need a few more returns between those sentances http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I was just reminding posters what the intent of the thread was.

Roanon.

I disagree with you in the greed concept. And I also agree with you. If that makes you go Huh!

I used to think it was just greed.

But I believe that it is the quest of Standard of Living.

People wish to live their lives where they can see that their standard of living increases from year to year.

This includes material goods, shelter, food , stability and level of comfort.

With this thought think about those 5 key areas. There is greed involved there. Yes but it is just part of the puzzle.

We have never seen a Marxist Version of Communisim. For the conditions to trigger/evoluve (from a marxist point of view) this have never been met.

But if you take a Marxist point of view and apply it to the 5 key areas that societies strive towards this Version of Communisim could happen with the different levels of greed that people do have.

For greed to truely kill a system everyone should have an equal level of greed. But that is not the case as its the standard of living that is the goal. This is why we have seen the many types of goverments in the 20th century and the reason they flurish and decline.

Well thats what I think. And I do believe it ties into a persons rights within what ever country they live in.

Would you ( anyone ) choose a high standard of living over personal freedoms within a nation and the personal freedoms of others in other nations?

It is a tough question to answer. And one where I have not answered yet. And one that is not cut and dry. Perhaps I do not want to answer it, but I also do not want the question answered for me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Baron Munchausen February 16th, 2004 11:31 PM

Re: OT- Rights in the USA and Canada and the world
 
greed (noun)

An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth: “Many... attach to competition the stigma of selfish greed” (Henry Fawcett).

(American Heritage Dictionary, emphasis added)

There is a difference between desire for property, security, and advancement and greed...

EvilGenius4ABetterTomorro February 16th, 2004 11:37 PM

Re: OT- Rights in the USA and Canada and the world
 
I just thought Communism was an economic system. Didn't Lenin originally want basic freedoms for his people?
Look at China now. Free enterprise style of economy but a totalitarian form of government.

I'm really scared for this country. Erosion of the middle class, clampdown of our constituional rights. I'm afraid we're heading for a two class system. Filthy rich business owners and semi rich technicians and the working poor. If you keep Playstations affordable the lower class won't rebel (modern day Version of the Roman Coloseum games) And if you do get uppity enough and ***** about "your place" in society, it's off to prison for you!

DYSLEXICS OF AMERICA UNTIE!

Slynky February 17th, 2004 12:07 AM

Re: OT- Rights in the USA and Canada and the world
 
Quote:

Originally posted by EvilGenius4ABetterTomorro:
I just thought Communism was an economic system. Didn't Lenin originally want basic freedoms for his people?
Look at China now. Free enterprise style of economy but a totalitarian form of government.

I'm really scared for this country. Erosion of the middle class, clampdown of our constituional rights. I'm afraid we're heading for a two class system. Filthy rich business owners and semi rich technicians and the working poor. If you keep Playstations affordable the lower class won't rebel (modern day Version of the Roman Coloseum games) And if you do get uppity enough and ***** about "your place" in society, it's off to prison for you!

DYSLEXICS OF AMERICA UNTIE!

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think you said what I said with more words...

As I said, "Give the population just enough to keep them from revolting."

A good analgy, though...the games in the collosium.

narf poit chez BOOM February 17th, 2004 12:14 AM

Re: OT- Rights in the USA and Canada and the world
 
i always liked 'ANARCHISTS UNITE!', if your looking for an ironical slogan.

EvilGenius4ABetterTomorro February 17th, 2004 12:53 AM

Re: OT- Rights in the USA and Canada and the world
 
In Civ III, when the populations get cranky you build a coloseum! Isn't there something in a Mel Brooks movie about how the people are revolting?
I'd think that the first step is to get 3rd world populations under control so the big wigs here don't use their populations for cheap labor. Now a conspiracy theorist would say that is what's happening now with diseases and wars being used to whittle down other countries populations. Oh, don't know what to think now. When the aliens come I want a window seat of this place!

Pyromaniacs of America Ignite!

Atrocities February 17th, 2004 01:01 AM

Re: OT- Rights in the USA and Canada and the world
 
Quote:

Originally posted by EvilGenius4ABetterTomorro:
I just thought Communism was an economic system. Didn't Lenin originally want basic freedoms for his people?
Look at China now. Free enterprise style of economy but a totalitarian form of government.

I'm really scared for this country. Erosion of the middle class, clampdown of our constituional rights. I'm afraid we're heading for a two class system. Filthy rich business owners and semi rich technicians and the working poor. If you keep Playstations affordable the lower class won't rebel (modern day Version of the Roman Coloseum games) And if you do get uppity enough and ***** about "your place" in society, it's off to prison for you!

DYSLEXICS OF AMERICA UNTIE!

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The new world order. It is the evelution of our society. There will always be a slave class and a rich power wielding currupt governing class.

It has been like this throughout history, and it will continue to be like this.

[ February 16, 2004, 23:02: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

atari_eric February 17th, 2004 01:17 AM

Re: OT- Rights in the USA and Canada and the world
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Atrocities:
The new world order. It is the evelution of our society. There will always be a slave class and a rich power wielding currupt governing class.

It has been like this throughout history, and it will continue to be like this.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Gee, if that's true, why even bother keeping the humans around? Why not replace us with something better?

narf poit chez BOOM February 17th, 2004 05:07 AM

Re: OT- Rights in the USA and Canada and the world
 
interesting webcomic auther's blog: http://www.davidpinero.com/chuckblog/blogout.cfm
don't agree with everything, but there's some good stuff there.

Atrocities February 17th, 2004 05:13 AM

Re: OT- Rights in the USA and Canada and the world
 
Quote:

Originally posted by atari_eric:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Atrocities:
The new world order. It is the evelution of our society. There will always be a slave class and a rich power wielding currupt governing class.

It has been like this throughout history, and it will continue to be like this.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Gee, if that's true, why even bother keeping the humans around? Why not replace us with something better? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They are trying, clones. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Rojero February 19th, 2004 11:36 PM

Re: OT- Rights in the USA and Canada and the world
 
Quote:

Originally posted by tesco samoa:
Slynky I do not think you opened a can of worms.

I value your opinion.

And please no country bashing. I wish to keep this thread to its original intent and that is the issue of Rights and Freedoms.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well I gotta tell you as a recent vet, and in fact I had just finished my tour Last june as some of you know, it was quite difficult to see my home town of NYC attacked. I cant fathom the total outcome of all the worlds chaos but I must admit that I would rather be here in America and have the ability as a citizen to change things as opposed to other nations who do not give that right to its citizens. My opinion is , to quote and paraphrase a certain Mel Gibson movie (Braveheart), that the government is there to serve us and not the citizens serve those in power.
Freedom isnt free....


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