Laying Mines problem since new Patch, Bug?
 

Greets..

I have noticed since the latest patch I can no longer lay bunches and clumps of mines in the strategic turn. For example, i'll bring my Minesweeper/layer to a warp point, this one only has one mine layer component on it, and when I go to lay mines, it will only let me lay one mine a turn. This prevents the wholesale quick mining of warp points or planets for defense which, while possibly balancing, I don't care for and don't agree with. How long is a turn supposed to be? A month or two? I fail to believe that with one mine layer component I can only lay one mine a month, that just doesn't make sense. Please put it back to the way it was.

Re: Laying Mines problem since new Patch, Bug?
 

Its not a bug its as intended.

Quote from the Beta patch thread:
14. Changed - There is now a limit per game turn in the number of fighters\
satellites\mines that can be launched. There is no limit to
the number of units that can be recovered. The Unit Transfer
window has been modified to display the numbers that can be
launched in a turn per ship.
NOTE: All 3 levels of mine layers, fighter bays, and satellites
bays have been changed to that they can only launch 1
unit per game turn or combat turn. (This was to make it
a little more interesting)
End quote.

This can be tweaked in my game I changed it so that a level 2 can launch 2 per turn and a level 3 can launch 3 This helps a bit but its still a lot slower than it was. The slower deployment helps the AI the most because it uses ship sizes like destroyer ect. to deploy instead of transports like I usually do so it doesn't carry hundreds of units around to deploy. At least they didn't limit the number of troops deployed from a troop transport per turn.

You can make the changes in the data\component.txt file to change the number of units launched per turn but you have to edit each component seperately.

[This message has been edited by Tomgs (edited 23 December 2000).]

Re: Laying Mines problem since new Patch, Bug?
 

I have gotta agree. most laying type things let you lay x number of things per tactical phase, not game turn. It might be OK if a level 1 layer let you lay 1 per tactical phase and 2 let you lay 2. there might not have been cause for a change, since this would not be very limiting even.

there can be a tactical combat for every movement point of a ship, with 30 turns (at default) of mine laying per combat.. or the new system for simutanious allows 1 combat per 5 days, whatever that comes out to. probably something like 5 combats per turn or so. so 5*30=150 mines per turn from a level 1 mine layer.

I think if mines need balancing, the answer is to make warheads less damaging, or do a random ammount of damage (ohh, it blew up too far from the ship). or to increase the power of sweepers. to make mines ineffective to deploy in order to counter the AI not treating them right is just friggin lame and it hoses up multiplayer games.

Re: Laying Mines problem since new Patch, Bug?
 

There are separate entries for how many units a component can launch per tactical turn and how many it can launch per game turn. You can probably set the limit per game turn so high that it effectively works just like before the patch, but there could be a hard-coded limit on the value the game will work with. I agree that it makes no sense the way it is since the patch, so I plan to change it when I install the patch (after finishing my current game).

Why doesn't it make sense? OK, if you string sectors with enemy units consecutively a ship could fight as many battles as it has stategic movement points. For a Battlecruiser or smaller with 6 quantum engines and a Solar Sail 3, belonging to a "Propulsion Experts" race, that is 13 battles in a single strategic turn. If it has one component which can launch 1 unit per tactical turn, at 30 tactical turns per battle that means 390 units can be launched during the 1 month strategic turn. So, if it can launch 390 units per month under combat conditions why would it only be able to launch 1 sitting by itself for the entire month under non-combat conditions. It just doesn't make sense for the "per game turn" limit to be less than 390 times the "per tactical turn" limit.

Re: Laying Mines problem since new Patch, Bug?
 

Gentelemen! (Err, and ladies if present? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif )

As I have pointed out too many times to recall now, the "balance" problem with mines is not the number that can be deployed, nor even the relative ineffectivness of minesweepers. It is the INFALLABLE HIT of every single mine. Mines never miss. As things are now, when you enter a minefield you get hit again and again until you are destroyed or the mines run out. This is beyond ridiculous. The one weapon system that will probably be impossible in "real" space warfare is mines, but even if they are possible they sure aren't going to be 100 percent effective. The vastness of space makes the concept of a mine very difficult to implement. It's very hard to imagine ships "accidently" hitting them, and if they have to detect ships and seek then they have the same chance to hit or miss as other weapons. If we want even a trace of realism with mines, we need to make them have a less than 100 percent chance to hit.

Re: Laying Mines problem since new Patch, Bug?
 

I agree on that one Baron. Also putting some random damage on those hits would be good too, but not essential.

Re: Laying Mines problem since new Patch, Bug?
 

I agree with all that plus I'd like to point out how much more interesting it'd be if you didn't know for a fact that a minefield is gone once you made it through. As it stands, if you survive, you must have had all the mines blow as you moved through.

Logically, all you'd know is that you cleared one path and if the mines drift about at all, it'd close up again before another fleet could pass through it. Wouldn't it be a lot more interesting as well as realistic to not really know if a minefield is gone until the minesweepers had been through?

A reasonable fix might be to have a percentage of mines able to "engage" an opponent. The higher the overall number of mines, the higher the density, so the greater number of mines would be found along any path cutting through the field. Even if the auto-hit for mines is kept, adding a random varience to this percentage would still generate some, well, randomness.

Re: Laying Mines problem since new Patch, Bug?
 

The idea that a minefield continues to go off untill the ship is destroyed or the field is used up is not really such a far fetched idea. We must go beyond the thinking that all mines are the dumb ones that were used over the past several wars. There are mines today that can detect hovering helicopters and then launch a fragmentation device into the air in the direction of the chopper..then there are others that fire anti tank missiles at approaching threats..most people think mines need to have some kind of contact before they explode, and while most of them do, many of them do not. The anti helicopter mines have been in use since the mid eighties. Today the tactical internet between combat platforms is the new thing, and it is not hard to imagine a couple centuries from now that smart mines would be able to "talk" to each other, not only to determine friend from foe, but to attack targets until the target is destroyed, even being able to process battle damage assesments and pass this info back to a friendly HQ. Even having the individual mines reposition to cover holes from previous breaching attempts seems logical. From a play balancing point of view this may not seem entirely fair, but from a realistic one, its perfectly logical.

Re: Laying Mines problem since new Patch, Bug?
 

I tend to agree - tactical and strategic needs more separation when it comes to launching units.. There should not be a restriction on the amount launched when dealing with the long term strategic time scale of the game, strategically launching units should not be limited.

[This message has been edited by AJC (edited 24 December 2000).]

Re: Laying Mines problem since new Patch, Bug?
 

first off, i agree that peoples thinking on what mines are is a bit constrained. we are doing lots of crazy stuff with them now, and the can be an unbalancing aspect of warfare. it remains ballanced since everyone has them though. sort of like mutual assured distruction, but not so nasty. now, to the rant:

did some testing here in a simultanious movement game. combats seem to occur once per movement point per ship/fleet per turn.

so for arguement, with 20 ships per side not grouped in fleets, with 10 mp each, thats 400 combats at 30 phases each, is 1200 possible mines, and as far as i can tell the formula is infinitly extendable. as far as im concerned thats all keen, but it means that mine / fighter deployments should not be limited as long as the unit has at least 1 movement point left.

I mean, look at a modern air craft carrier. it can launch its fighters pretty danm fast. I think something on the order of one every 30 seconds, or 2 minutes, or something equally mean. they tend to have 1 lift, and 1 runway, and alot of storage space (ok, im simplifying). but MM would have us believe that 25th century carriers or mine layers will need one lift and one runway for EVERY DARN FIGHTER unless they only want to launch one per MONTH. come on now...

I also noticed something else interesting, in a simutanious (i'll spell that differently each time, thank you) movement game, the disposable emergency speed booster rocket things seem to do two things for you. jack and spit. I think jack left town, and spit's probably edited for television. anyone able to make them, i dont know.. work? when you use them, they are not used until the turn is computed, so you plot your movement with your standard speed, then they get used, then the turn ends.. then your back to standard speed, without ever getting to plot movement at the higher speed. and as far as the test above went, they did not even factor into the number of times that combat occured in a turn. whoo hoo.

Re: Laying Mines problem since new Patch, Bug?
 

Argh! Puke SMASH!!

okay, hold on tight here, but when i was 'fixing' mine layers, sats, and fighter bays, i noticed that not only were the silly littel per game turn limits put on, but level 3 fighter bays which used to launch 2 fighters per combat turn, now (wait for it.. wait for it..) only launch one!

now, i can see some arguements both for and against this. either way though, its a fairly major component change and it would have been nice to have some sort of notice for it.

on the whole though, this has been a great patch. dont get me wrong, MM has been doing a superb job overall. and things like this.. well, things like this probably help to bolster the Mod'er community http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Re: Laying Mines problem since new Patch, Bug?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>okay, hold on tight here, but when i was 'fixing' mine layers, sats, and fighter bays, i noticed that not only were the silly littel per game turn limits put on, but level 3 fighter bays which used to launch 2 fighters per combat turn, now (wait for it.. wait for it..) only launch one!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, didn't look at .txt files for that one, but in the Version history file for latest patch that was mentioned.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>on the whole though, this has been a great patch. dont get me wrong, MM has been doing a superb job overall. and things like this.. well, things like this probably help to bolster the Mod'er community<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMAO. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

On the side note, when you deploy units in combat, all the units deployed RETURN to their carrier after combat.
However, I haven't tried that on mines, just satellites.

Re: Laying Mines problem since new Patch, Bug?
 

Another possible solution to balancing mines is to see how many mines detect the enemy vessels... based upon Ship size, number in fleet (&sensors/ecm/cloak). Thus only a % of mines will "engage" the ship/fleet... they will attack untill enemy is deystroyed... and you won't know if the field is completely clean.

Trachmyr

Re: Laying Mines problem since new Patch, Bug?
 

yes, it does seem that I didnt pay enough attention to the Version history..

as for the percent of mines engaging based on size and cloak, thats awesome. It would also mean that you could put things like sensors on mines, and actual mine 'design' would not be quite as rhetorical as it is now.

Re: Laying Mines problem since new Patch, Bug?
 

on how mines are triggered, the general concencus that i have read on the board, and what i have seen with smaller fleets, has been that when a field is triggered, mines attack one ship till it dies, then go for another.

mostly people complain about this, but I dont mind too much really. the odd thing is, that i just plowed a fleet of dreadnaughts through a hostile warp point (okay, it wasn't to bright of me). six bought the farm, and about 7 others were damaged rather heavily. the fact that some were damaged without being destroyed makes me wonder if something changed in the new Version, or if we have had a major missconception about whats going on. or if i have been missunderstanding the entire discussion.

Re: Laying Mines problem since new Patch, Bug?
 

Well, if you want to put mines down, you'll have to put more mine layers on your ship. (Again, the tradeoff, more layers, or more cargo?)
However, I think that the layers should be able to launch more than 1 a turn. Thats silly.

Re: Laying Mines problem since new Patch, Bug?
 

I'm pretty sure mines pick random ships to damage, as I have had a bunch of smashed up ships sitting on a warp point waiting for repair far too often.

Re: Laying Mines problem since new Patch, Bug?
 

A mine in space would not work like an old-fashioned naval mine, exploding when something hit it. Space being vast, the chances that something will run over your mine is remote. Even with a proximity fuse, the warhead would have to be huge to cause any damage at all. So, for mines to be realistic in space, they would have to be one of two things:

1) A stealthed seeker that waited to activate until it detected a target in range. Some modern naval mines are this already.

2) A disposable (bomb-pumped) one shot non-seeking weapon that fired at the first target which came in range (or perhaps held fire once the target is in range until the range to target starts increasing).

In scenario 1, point defense would work and you'd need a bunch of them to be effective (enough to saturate PD).

In scenario 2, you could postulate that the bomb-pumping the weapon makes it more powerful than even massive base-mounted weapons. You'd avoid having to play out the interaction with PD. However, it could still miss and the target's ECM would help it miss (you'd need to add combat sensors in your mine design).

In either scenario, you'd have the possibility of ships coming through the sector without getting within range. Again, space being vast, the chance of a ship coming within range of even one mine as it passed through the minefield sector would be remote. The only way to deal with that is to make mines a warp point-only weapon which attacks only enemy ships using the warp point (either direction). Then you can postulate the mines are all set up within range of the warp point. Note that this does not save the concept of a simple explosive mine. If they were all close enough to the warp point to damage something coming through, the first mine that went off would either detonate or destroy all the rest. They'd all have to go off together, probably over-killing the first target and letting the rest of the enemy fleet come through unharmed.

Using the warp point-only idea in combination with scenario #2 would make mines work more or less like they do now, in warp point sectors. However, you'd still need to address the interaction between the mine's fire control system (scanners, combat sensors, etc..) and the target's passive defenses (ECM, cloak, etc...). Cloaked ships that could not be detected by the systems installed in the mines would simply not set off any mines.

So, what is mine sweeping in that case? Probably some sort of very short-ranged decoy that goes through the warp point first to set off the mines.

Re: Laying Mines problem since new Patch, Bug?
 

Here is a (large) quote I found in one of the Star Trek sites:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The antimatter mine is a simple, no-frills weapon designed to be used in large numbers in order to restrict or deny an area of space to enemy forces. The simplest form of mine is the command model; this consists of a matter and antimatter charge held suspended in containment fields within a small case which also holds a communications mechanism. This type of mine would be deployed within the scan radius of a controlling vessel; the ship then monitors the area for the approach of enemy vessels, detonating a mine by remote control when an enemy vessel approached it. If a long duration minefield is required a sensor drone can take the place of the ship. The Enterprise-D used such a minefield to force the surrender of a Cardassian fleet in the McAllister Nebula in 2369.
More complex and effective mines are each fitted with their own sensor system. Although this makes the mines slightly more difficult to construct, such a minefield is not dependant on a single drone to run it and is hence more resistant to countermeasures.
The better mines are essentially tiny drone spacecraft, fitted with their own independent sensors and drive system, controlled by an artificial intelligence computer. The Federation Type 16 mine is an example of this type - it constantly surveys space around it to a radius of five light seconds, analysing anything which enters this zone and comparing it to a pre-programmed file of enemy vessel types. The entire minefield can be networked together, allowing them to share sensor information between them. If an enemy target enters the field the mines will determine which one has the best possible intercept solution; this mine will activate its micro impulse drive at the appropriate moment and track in on the target, detonating its warhead at the moment of closest approach. The Type 19 mine operates in a similar manner but the mines are fitted with a small warp engine to allow them to engage targets using warp drive. At this level the mine is essentially a photon torpedo capable of lying dormant for long periods.

The most recent development in Federation mine technology is the Type 21 mine developed by an engineering team on Deep Space Nine under Chief Miles O'Brien. At one metre in diameter this is one of the smallest mines in use by the Federation. It contains a photonic charge equal to several hundred grenades rather than a matter/antimatter charge, along with a micro impulse system and sensor system capable of scanning out to a radius of two thousand kilometres. This very limited range and destructive capability is more than offset by the use of both a cloaking device and a replicator system on the mines; when a target is detected the mines calculate the number required to destroy it, and allocate that number to the task. Once the target is destroyed the mines in that area latch onto the wreckage of both mines and target and use it in their on-board replicators to construct new mines. This allows the field to actually increase in size and density substantially whenever a target is attacked. This type of minefield is exceptionally difficult to clear; the use of a cloaking system on the mines means that an enemy can never be sure that every mine has been destroyed in a weapons barrage. Should only a handful survive to destroy another target, hundreds or even thousands more mines are quickly replicated and the field can be back up to full strength within hours. Such a minefield was deployed at the Bajoran Wormhole to block access by Dominion forces, triggering the Federation-Dominion war. The Dominion forces which captured DS9 at the outbreak of the war struggled several months to disable the minefield without success.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Re: Laying Mines problem since new Patch, Bug?
 

Bill,

1 other idea which I think is what happens here, Each "mine" actually represents a minefield that has been laid down. Additional "mines" make the field bigger to catch more ships.

------------------
Seawolf on the prowl

Re: Laying Mines problem since new Patch, Bug?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Seawolf:
Bill,

1 other idea which I think is what happens here, Each "mine" actually represents a minefield that has been laid down. Additional "mines" make the field bigger to catch more ships.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, in the game SE4 is based on, called Starfire, minefields are Groups of small autonomous missiles that attack ships entering their tactical hex that don't have the proper IFF code. They are defended against with point defense, and can be shot at by beam weapons if the ship has the right scanners, but only in that actual hex. (Small, difficult to detect targets.)

SE4 is a different game, so the different method of attack seems acceptable. I'm trying to remember if mines in Starfire can attack ships using ECM3 in cloaking mode. Probably not, but you never know. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif



------------------
--
"What do -you- want?" "I'd like to live -just- long enough
to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a
pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors
come with too high a price. I would look up into your lifeless
eyes and wave like this..." *waggle* "...can you and your
associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"

Re: Laying Mines problem since new Patch, Bug?
 

this problem of strategic mine laying is easily modified in the components file - there are two listing for launching units- strategic and tactical - the second number listed is the strategic launch capablity..

change The Ability 1 Val 2 , to read 1000 and the launching component can launch as many units as required per strategic turn.

I left the limit of 1 unit launched per tactical turn on my Fighter Bay, Satellite Bay and Mine laying components because I agree with the limitation in combat.

example: Fighter bay-

Name := Fighter Bay I
Description := Area on a starship where fighters are stored for launch.
Pic Num := 58
Tonnage Space Taken := 30
Tonnage Structure := 30
Cost Minerals := 100
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := None
General Group := Unit Launch
Family := 15
Roman Numeral := 1
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Fighters
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Number of Abilities := 2
Ability 1 Type := Launch/Recover Fighters
Ability 1 Descr := Can launch and recover fighters from space. 1 fighter can be launched per combat turn.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 1
Ability 1 Val 2 := 1000
Ability 2 Type := Cargo Storage
Ability 2 Descr := Provides 30kT of cargo space.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 30
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None


[This message has been edited by AJC (edited 30 December 2000).]

Re: Laying Mines problem since new Patch, Bug?
 

Ah, so that's how it's done. Haven't taken the time to go into the files and find it.

I'd try to limit that number a bit more. I think what they were trying to change was the advantage human players had over computer players, which was humans would design a minelayer with one mine layer and a bunch of cargo bays. The limit should be something like the number of small mines (or fighters, or satellites) that can be launched by that bay. Or maybe five to ten times that much.



------------------
--
"What do -you- want?" "I'd like to live -just- long enough
to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a
pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors
come with too high a price. I would look up into your lifeless
eyes and wave like this..." *waggle* "...can you and your
associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"

Re: Laying Mines problem since new Patch, Bug?
 

I changed it a bit differently in my files. I made the amount to be launched equal to the level of the component. So a level 2 mine layer can launch 2 per turn. This is still a bit of a limit but it is possible to live with and just maybe the computer can deal with this small increase better than an larger number. I don't often use mines anyway and I can live with a few satelites launched per turn. Others can set different limits according to their preferances. I usually try to set limits based on level I like the idea that if you invest research points you get some added benifits from the technology. I may increase the cargo size of the components a bit more also because the AI doesn't seem to put any cargo bins on its launcher ships, maybe this will even it out a bit more. I will have to be careful not to increase it too much or I will see transports full of fighter bays and mine layers.

Re: Laying Mines problem since new Patch, Bug?
 

You know, I've just played a game of Stars! since I hadn't for a long time. I find the treatment of mines in Stars! to be MUCH more logical. Wouldn't it be great if a minefield in SE IV could be an attribute of a sector, like a storm is? You would just put a mine-layer equipped ship in a sector with the order to lay mines and a "minefield" would appear with the number of mines as an attribute. No screwing around with individual mines. I have to wonder why it was considered too much micro-management to have to build your missiles and carry them, but not considered too much for mines. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...s/confused.gif

Anyway, a minefield in Stars! is just an area where you have a percentage chance to hit (or be hit - depending on your view of how mines work) by a mine. And, minefields DECAY with time as the mines get old and break down. Now there's a cool idea. If this were added to SE, suddenly you wouldn't be able to build mine defenses up to infinity (or the unit limit). You'd have to MAINTAIN your minefields. Either leave a mine layer "on patrol" in the sector or send one back periodically to renew the field.

You would not necessarily be completely destroyed when you hit a mine, either. So, you'd have crippled ships slowing a fleet down, or having to try to get home somehow, or getting slaughtered by a "sentry" fleet posted nearby. All much more realistic -- and interesting -- than guaranteed total annihilation. The percentage chance to hit a mine would have to be different in SE since the navigation grid is much "coarser" than in Stars! but otherwise this would translate quite well, I think. And it would save a lot of overhead on the game to not treat mines as individual units, just as it saves to not treat missiles as individual units. So, drop mines as units and add drones! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Laying Mines problem since new Patch, Bug?
 

Being a long time Stars player, I absolutely agree with Baron Munchausen on the mines. The mines in SE should be changed to a % chance of hitting mines, and the mines should decay over time.

If we get rid of mines as an individual unit, a mine layer can basically lay infinite number of mines (when given order to do it, and it ofc cost resources per turn)
And when the sector is selected, it should show info about the mine field , such as the number of mines, level of mine tech used, and % chance to hit a passing ship.

It will be possible to have 2 mine fields with 2 different level of tech in the same sector. So, when a ship enters, it will be tested to see if the 1st field will hit the ship. Hit, destroyed or not, if the ship survives the 1st field, it will be tested again with the 2nd field.

Perhaps higher minelayer/minelaying tech should increase the % chance to hit ships entering the mine field, and maybe the damage applied would be higher too.

Re: Laying Mines problem since new Patch, Bug?
 

Looks like someone else also saw the same problem. Malfador/Shrapnel let me know if this will be in the next fix.

Re: Laying Mines problem since new Patch, Bug?
 

Baron,

I don't think that mine automatically destroy a ship. If the mine was weak enough and a larger enough ship passed through the components could absorb the bLast and still have enough left.

------------------
Seawolf on the prowl

Re: Laying Mines problem since new Patch, Bug?
 

I had a mine group orbiting one of my frontier planets a fleet attacked the world and I had 4 partially damaged ships attacking after the mines were used up. So unless 3 of the ships were previously damaged (which is a possibility but there were no strange warp points near there) they all took partial damage from the mines. 4 of their ships were destroyed outright and there were no ships undamaged after hitting the minefield. Now when I hit a minefield all the damage seems to concentrate on ships one after another leaving at most one damaged ship. Hopefully this wasn't just an isolated incident and mines damage ships randomly and not just one after another.

[This message has been edited by Tomgs (edited 02 January 2001).]

Re: Laying Mines problem since new Patch, Bug?
 

I think this change was awesome. No more super transports that can lay mines/sat's/fighters. I actually have to think about my mine and sat layers more and balance cargo space vs unit launch capabilities. I've started building dreadnaughts that have 20 lauch bays so that I can launch more units per turn. It's also made those bays actually have a real use beyond give a ship the ability to launch units.

The only problem I have with this change is related to fighters and not being able to transfer cargo from a transport ship carrying fighters to a fighter carrier. It would be nice to do ship to ship transport without the need for a planet to be present.