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AI Modding 101?
Was yapping in #SE4, and Fryon mentioned that there was indeed a document on AI Modding, though he couldn't remember the name of it.
Does anyone have any info on modding the AI? Documentation? Anything? |
Re: AI Modding 101?
This is my first post. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
I have been following your Posts Litcube and I can feel your pain. I'm also having trouble modding the AI, especially the (Computer Opponent)_AI_DesignCreation.txt. More on that later. I can't find any documenation on AI Modding. I have look everywhere but only find some notes or a passing sentence or a topic on the message board. Let see, I looked at the "Frequently Asked Questions for Newbies" post but found only a small section on Modding. This topic is more geared for players and is excellent for newbies. I learned a lot about the game but no AI modding help. I then looked at http://galileo.spaceports.com/~kazharii/modding101/ and read through Imperator Fyron (Nolan Kelly) excellent SEIV Modding 101 tutorial. I learn a lot from his tutorial but again no AI Modding help. Next I went to http://invirtuo.cc/phpwiki/index.php/AI The encyclopedia Malfadorica Wiki for Space Empire IV Gold. All I got where definitions of the AI files. No help here. I then look through the AI Campaign and TDM-MODPACK for help but only read that they tweaked the AI. So I re-read what is written in the Default_AI_DesignCreation.txt for anymore clues I might have missed. Am I just not noticing where the AI modding document is? The only document I could find that actually talk a little about the AI files is the "Modifying the Universe In a Day" by Chris Traber and that is found on the SEIV Gold CD. But it doesn't go in to the text file details like the SEIV Modding Tutorial 101. The SE4 Modder by David Gunstensen does help with AI research and facility construction but it doesn't help with design creation and it doesn't help you understand the AI files. So I did a search for AI help on the forum and that led me to Litcube who is asking a lot of questions about AI modding. I just can't imagine that with all of the excellent MOD tutorials out there for SEIV Gold that we can't find one for AI modding that goes into some kind of detail. If there is one, I just not seeing it but I have try to stress in my post that I have looked for one. You start to look at the AI mods and the original files and you think you start to understand something and something will just throw you like in the AI_Research.txt. What is Not Connected? I can probably guess but it nice to have stuff spell out for you sometimes. In reference to the post here: http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...;f=23;t=010966 and I'm still confused with Num Misc Abilities := 7 Misc Ability 1 Name := Point-Defense Misc Ability 1 Spaces Per One := 400 Okay, Rollo said that that means that for each 400kt of hull space one component that has Point-Defense ability will be added. Note that this is always rounded down, but a minimum of one component will be added. So that results in: 1 component for hulls from 1 to 799 2 components for hulls from 800 to 1199 3 components for hulls from 1200 to 1599 and so on... Okay, that makes sense but when you look at this: Misc Ability 1 Name := Point-Defense Misc Ability 1 Spaces Per One := 400 Misc Ability 2 Name := Cloak Level Misc Ability 2 Spaces Per One := 10000 Misc Ability 3 Name := Quantum Reactor Misc Ability 3 Spaces Per One := 10000 Misc Ability 4 Name := Combat To Hit Defense Plus Misc Ability 4 Spaces Per One := 10000 Misc Ability 5 Name := Combat To Hit Offense Plus Misc Ability 5 Spaces Per One := 10000 Misc Ability 6 Name := Multiplex Tracking Misc Ability 6 Spaces Per One := 10000 Misc Ability 7 Name := Shield Regeneration Misc Ability 7 Spaces Per One := 800 Misc Ability 8 Name := Emergency Resupply Misc Ability 8 Spaces Per One := 800 Misc Ability 9 Name := Self-Destruct Misc Ability 9 Spaces Per One := 10000 Misc Ability 10 Name := Scanner Jammer Misc Ability 10 Spaces Per One := 10000 Misc Ability 11 Name := Supply Storage Misc Ability 11 Spaces Per One := 500 you can start to get confused again. Okay if 400 is supposed to be "each 400kt of hull space one component that has Point-Defense ability will be added" then why are we seeing values of 10000? An unmodded base ship has a value of 1500 tonnage. BTW these values come from the TDM-Modpack. Also in the AI_DesignCreation.txt header, it says under Vehicle size user requirements "Does not have any Min Percent requirements for a comp type different than the Majority Comp Type. Does not have any Max Percent requirements for the Majority Comp Type." How does percentage play it to this? I thought we were talking about tonnage? And what about this? Majority Comp Spaces Per One := 1200 Majority Comp Ability := Weapon Secondary Comp Spaces Per One := 500 Secondary Comp Ability := Weapon Are we saying here that the majority comp ability was always be first look at and then secondary comp ability if there is enough tonnage? Or does the AI design have to be able to use a majority and secondary comp space if listed in the txt file? It took 2 hours just to discover that I was looking at the wrong weapons family when looking at the Majority Weapon Family Pick 1. I kept looking at the Family value instead of the weapon family for a weapon in the components.txt. My point is that we need a document on modding AI in the spirit of the SEIV Modding 101 if there isn't one already. I already started working on one just for my sanity but it wont be good as what Rollo or Mephisto can come up with. I'm sorry to vent but I just can't understand why it so hard to find documentation on Modding AI txt files. |
Re: AI Modding 101?
Exactly. It's funny that you've noticed that I've been pulling out my hair over trying to Mod AI. There's alot of "re-inventing" the wheel going on out there, and it's a shame.
I've managed to get the basics of the design files and construction files down. If you look at the quantum reactor on your list (10000Kt), you only need one in a ship. There's a minimum of one, so anything ammount of KT over the ammount of the largest ship, will result in a maximum & minimum of one on a ship. I've also managed to find out how to get the AI to design more than one types of attack ships. I still don't understand Oleg's method of using the "must have", and with my experimentatino, it doesn't work as well as I would have thought. Using boarding ships, kamakazie ships seems to work well. There's alot of hardcode in the AI. "Easy modding" my ***. My biggest problem right now is the lack of momentum the AI seems to show. With no logical reason whatsoever, the AI will simply give up doing much of anything after a certain point in time. They quit expanding. I have no idea why. |
Re: AI Modding 101?
These might be of some use:
AI Cheat Sheet Generic AI Excel Spreadsheet *sigh* where did all of these people go? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif [ February 22, 2004, 05:53: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ] |
Re: AI Modding 101?
The "AI cheat sheet" Fyron links to really is excellent. Check it out!
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Re: AI Modding 101?
yes, you guys are right. The documentation is hard to find. It is mostly bits and pieces that can be found on the board.
I think the biggest help to start with is Atraikius Design Cheat Sheet (thanks for digging that up Fyron): Quote:
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Re: AI Modding 101?
I just got back from eating. I took a quick look at the AI Cheat Sheet. It looks very helpful with explaining the AI_DesignCreation. I have look through the "Modding and other help tool" Posts but pass on this one becuase it was just called "cheat sheet." When you unzip it, you find the doc called AI_DesignCreation_CheatSheet. Thank you Imperator Fyron. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I must give a special thanks to Atraikius for creating it. I'll look harder through these Posts to make sure I didn't miss anything else. I going to bed now so I'll read the whole doc tomorrow but from what I seen so far is gold. This document should be connected to the other mod tutorials and not buried in a post.
Rollo, anymore help you can provide regarding AI Modding would be appricated. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Litcube, thanks for the help regarding the 10000Kt issue. I'm not familiar with Oleg's method of using the "must have" so I don't know what to tell you. I'm interested though and would like to know more if you can point me to the information. As far as your AI slowing in momentum, I'm not a mod expert and without more information on your setup, maybe either your AI can't research something or they are not adding all of the correct components they need for their unit or ship? Maybe maintenance is eating up all of the AI resources? Maybe a ship is too expensive to build and taking too many extra turns to get out of the space yard. I'm just guessing but when the AI doesn't act right for me, I play a couple of more turns and then goto Game Menu -> Players -> and uncheck the AI in question and play him for a turn to see what's going on. |
Re: AI Modding 101?
alright, here is what I was looking for:
This thread along with the design sheet should help you to get started: AI Text Files Tips & Hints and here is something to explain how research works: AI modding: research.txt Feel free to post additional specific questions, though. I totally agree that an AI modding 101 would be a great thing. [ February 22, 2004, 08:10: Message edited by: Rollo ] |
Re: AI Modding 101?
Thanks again Rollo for all of your help. There is a lot of great info here to sort through.
I got to, got to, go to bed but I had one quick questions before I'm gone. I read through your excellent AI Modding Research.txt and I have a quick question about "Not Connected" AI State. I looked at what Tampa_Gamer (your second link)also said about AI Modding Research.txt: (6) Make sure you test your races “Not Connected” research tree - some people actually play this option and they may want your race to do more than sit on its thumbs for 100 turns. This is taken from one of the AI Reseach.txt file: AI State := Not Connected Tech Area Name := Rock Planet Colonization Tech Area Level := 1 Tech Area Min Percent := 100 I notice all of the "Not Connected" AI States use a "Tech Area Min Percent" of 100. Is "Not Connected" the AI's way of saying it's researched everything that is important and it's going to now just research one tech regardless of what is actually happening in the game? |
Re: AI Modding 101?
"Not Connected" refers to a situation in which the AI is not connected to any other races. Basically, if you start a game with No Warp Points, the AI will be in the Not Connected state. If the AI gets completely cut off from all other empires, it might go into the Not Connected state.
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Re: AI Modding 101?
'Not Connected' is an AI state. When the AI thinks it is 'alone in the universe' (i.e. not connected to others via warp points), it switches to that state.
So while in 'Not Connected' state it researches different than in all the other states. Higher priotity to colonization tech, warp point opening, etc. [ February 22, 2004, 09:03: Message edited by: Rollo ] |
Re: AI Modding 101?
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"Tech Area Min Percent" of 100 always results in lost research points, since only one project will be in the queue. |
Re: AI Modding 101?
Just realized that I shouldn't say this a bad choice without providing a better alternative http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
This is what I use for some of my races: Quote:
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Re: AI Modding 101?
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It is very easy to deal with this problem using "must have": For example, if you want 10 "attack ship 1" and 10 "attack ship 2", you use must have := 10 for the first name and "must have := 20(!) for the second entry. This way, AI build 10 a.s.1 and then 10 (!) a.s.2 since the number of "must have" corresponds to the summ of all attack ships in service. It can be done with "planet per item" but it is more tricky. If you want say 4 a.s.1 per planet and 4 a.s.2 per planet, you must use planet per item :=4 for first ship name and planet per item :=2 (!) for second name. If you use =4 in the second entry, no ships would be build since SE "thinks" the fullfilment for attack ships was satisfied by a.s.1 numbers. [ February 22, 2004, 09:54: Message edited by: oleg ] |
Re: AI Modding 101?
You should concentrate on one file in your modding first. Doing them all at once will get you confused. For testing AI designs I suggest to create one savegame with High Tech and one with Medium Tech so you can test you design file with different tech levels.
One major trick in the design of AI ships is to remember that the AI will fill a design with the primary weapon. Knowing this you should only add one primary weapon, fill the ship with everything else you want to have on board and then the AI will fill the remaining space with weapons. Watch the designs in the game but do not use the "condensed view". Each component is in the order the AI added it into the design. |
Re: AI Modding 101?
Holy smokes. If you build it, they will come.
Everything has been a great help, guys, thanks. If I've learned anything by reading this, though, it's that AI modding is *alot* of work, if you're going to do it right. Especially if you've completely redone the tech tree. :/ |
Re: AI Modding 101?
Here's another:
What defines each of the AI's modes? Exploration, I'm assuming is right off the start. But at what point does it shift gears? And to which gear does it shift? |
Re: AI Modding 101?
I agree with Litcube. Thanks to everyone for there help. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
I just read your question Litcube and would like to know too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif Quote:
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"Tech Area Min Percent" of 100 always results in lost research points, since only one project will be in the queue. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This was taken from the TDM-Modpack. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif I am really happy with Atraikius AI_DesignCreation_CheatSheet.doc but I'm bothered that this post and the document will get buried again when this post becomes old news. I was wondering if the document could be link to "Frequently Asked Questions for Newbies" or to Imperator Fyron SEIV Modding 101 tutorial since the doc is a modding subject? [ February 22, 2004, 22:11: Message edited by: hicksz ] |
Re: AI Modding 101?
The conditions that make the AI switch states are hard-coded and not available to players in any way.
MM had a special debug mode in the game for a while that let us watch and see what modes the AI was using (to help develop AI mods, of course... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif and it seemed to spend more time in 'short term defense' mode than anything else. As a general rule, it will be in 'exploration' mode when there are no enemies to deal with. So, yes, the first part of most games will be spent entirely in exploration mode until first contact with periodic breaks for 'Infrastructure' mode. First reaction to an enemy incursion is 'Defend - short term' and since anyone you don't have a treaty above 'non-intercourse' with is an enemy that would be why it spends so much time in that mode. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif When the AI wants to get aggressive it goes into 'prepare for attack' mode and this is obvious if you are the object of attack. We've all seen it. The fleet that is going to attack you will sit there in plain view as it builds up. If the attack fails it assesses its strength according to its own secret standards and either starts a new buildup or goes into 'infrastructure' mode to build up its strength some more before checking to see if it ought to attack someone -- assuming it is not attacked in turn before getting around to that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif The other modes are very rarely used, unfortunately. I never once saw the AI use 'defend - long term' mode. [ February 23, 2004, 03:47: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ] |
Re: AI Modding 101?
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Re: AI Modding 101?
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For the past month or so, most of my requests for AI Modding help have been met with, "Read SE4 Modding 101". |
Re: AI Modding 101?
Baron Munchausen,
I'm assuming that this debug mode doesn't exist anymore. I'm curious why a game that is purportedly modder friendly would disable an invaluable tool such as this; but again, I'm assuming. Have you ever seen the AI go back into "explorer" mode after initial contact with a race? [ February 23, 2004, 18:38: Message edited by: Litcube ] |
Re: AI Modding 101?
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I will contact Attraikus when I get home from work. His E-mail is listed on his profile and I will try to seek permission. I will let you know if I get it. Hopefully this can be a start to completing your modding 101 tutorial. I remember reading on your forum that the AI mods were being considered. As soon as all of the AI mods are added SE V will come out and we will have to start all over again. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif [ February 23, 2004, 20:05: Message edited by: hicksz ] |
Re: AI Modding 101?
This mode only existed in the beta Versions, never in the public Version to prevent cheating. The AI will return to "Exploration" when the AI has no contact to another race.
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Re: AI Modding 101?
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[ February 23, 2004, 22:44: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ] |
Re: AI Modding 101?
Im sure that once this latest patch is realised that there will be a need to upgrade and enhance the AI and its strategies etc. I would like to see a "smarter" and "more adaptive" AI instead of just pushing for weapons to bLast you - pursuing shields easily nullifies this. The other big AI research ship upgrade tactics is its special weapons.
More adaptive research targets and a smart selective based upon feedback from battles might make em more challanging ? That said we will also need some work on a AI Modding FAQ. |
Re: AI Modding 101?
Imperator Fyron, it looks like I'm not going to be able to get Atraikius permission to post his AI_DesignCreation_CheatSheet on your website. I e-mailed him three days ago and didn't get an answer. I also did a search on his name and he hasn't posted since June of 2003.
Litcube, I ran into this post entitled "My AI Design Q&A" looking for Atraikius. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...3;t=009267;p=1 I don't have the time right now to read through every post but I notice a lot of AI Modding subjects including AI states. Maybe something here will interest you. On another note, I have a question. Why do we have a Max Size Tonnage in the AI_Settings.txt for up to three turns? I was playing with the VehicleSize.txt ship and base tonnage sizes (Increasing them) and noticing that the AI was not creating all of it's ships and bases after turn 1. It took a while to notice the problem because I thought I did something wrong in the component.txt. |
Re: AI Modding 101?
Does anyone that knows/knew Atraikus think he would object if I included his cheat sheet in SEIV Modding 101?
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Re: AI Modding 101?
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The text is tricky because: "Max Ship Size Tonnage From Start 1 Amount" does not equal "The max ship size tonnage for selecting low tech at start of new game". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Also I discovered that "Max Ship Size Tonnage From Start 1 Num Turns" is referring to a full game year. I did this test with a race and they didn't develop full ship designs until 2401.0 after adding a value of 1. Now correct me if I'm wrong but I thought after you completed everything you wanted to do you press the "End Turn" button which is a transition of 2400.0 to 2400.1. It's an area that I just find confusing (but understand now) because of the way the text in the AI_Setting is written. [ February 27, 2004, 04:43: Message edited by: hicksz ] |
Re: AI Modding 101?
[quote]Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
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Max Ship Size Tonnage From Start 1 Amount := 510 Max Ship Size Tonnage From Start 1 Num Turns := 20 Max Ship Size Tonnage From Start 2 Amount := 610 Max Ship Size Tonnage From Start 2 Num Turns := 40 Max Ship Size Tonnage From Start 3 Amount := 0 Max Ship Size Tonnage From Start 3 Num Turns := 0 That means the AI will not make designs bigger than 510kt for the first 20 turns. And no designs bigger than 610 for the first 40 turns. Note that these settings don't really come into play unless you use a full-tech start or increase the hull sizes in your mod. [ February 27, 2004, 05:46: Message edited by: Rollo ] |
Re: AI Modding 101?
Hmm... See, this is why you should write an AI Modding 101 Rollo. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
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Re: AI Modding 101?
[quote]Originally posted by Rollo:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Imperator Fyron: Quote:
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Max Ship Size Tonnage From Start 1 Amount := 510 Max Ship Size Tonnage From Start 1 Num Turns := 20 Max Ship Size Tonnage From Start 2 Amount := 610 Max Ship Size Tonnage From Start 2 Num Turns := 40 Max Ship Size Tonnage From Start 3 Amount := 0 Max Ship Size Tonnage From Start 3 Num Turns := 0 That means the AI will not make designs bigger than 510kt for the first 20 turns. And no designs bigger than 610 for the first 40 turns. Note that these settings don't really come into play unless you use a full-tech start or increase the hull sizes in your mod. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks Rollo for responding to my question. Imperator Fyron, it sure look like the tech level was having an effect. I must have been hitting the right combination. Thanks again for helping. |
Re: AI Modding 101?
Imperator Fyon,
I was able to get a hold of Atraikius and he said it was okay to put the AI_DesignCreation_CheatSheet on your website. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Plus he welcomes you to also add the "Generic AI Excel Spreadsheet" too. All he wants is and I Quote: "state that it was from me, and that I would like to know of any of the errors (with the Generic AI Excel Spreadsheet) so I can get them fixed (I know there are several that will come up when starting a new game, but haven't gotten around to fixing finding and fixing them yet)" He said that he had started working on more of the AI files but had decided to include them into an excel sheet that will actually create a full set of basic AI files for you. He just hasn't had the time to clean up the bugs. Here is your original link to the files for your convience Imperator Fyon. Thanks again for your help and support. Quote:
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Re: AI Modding 101?
Rise, thread. RISE from the grave.
What? no more questions in over two years?! =) |
Re: AI Modding 101?
/me whacks off the threads head and stabs a stake in it's heart.
* Bored. |
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