Strange Agoraphobic AI
 

What would cause an AI to stay in it's home system?

I have created 10 AIs for use with my mod. They're all very similar. I tested them all many, many times using omnipresent mode, so that I can see what they're all doing on the galactic map. However, when I sat down to play, I've learned they act *very* differently when the omnipresent mode is taken off.

I've tested all the AIs. All but 2 will do the following:

- Start out OK.
- Colonize all planets in home system
- Build one more colony ship
- Colony ship stays at home planet

And that's it. It won't venture anywhere else. Bothersome. Any ideas?

Re: Strange Agoraphobic AI
 

Do you have them set to build at least one attack ship while in Exploration state? AIs only explore using designs designated as attack ships; no other types will use unexplored warp points. Using omnipresent view, the AI has effectively explored everything and should expand normally. This is one possible cause, at least, of what you're seeing.

[ February 26, 2004, 03:21: Message edited by: Krsqk ]

Re: Strange Agoraphobic AI
 

Do they have the Xenophobic cultural trait?

Re: Strange Agoraphobic AI
 

They're not Xenophobic.


I don't have an attack ship in the explore queue, Krsk, but that goes for all the races. Yet two still explore with their colony ships.

Even scarier.. I've copied the AI files from the working race into those that are stagnant. Same results..

<cue screechy violin music>

Re: Strange Agoraphobic AI
 

Are you using the latest patch? I noticed some of the AIs in a game I was playing with the beta were very ... "non-agressive" in their expansion for some reason but I was busy watching other parts of the game. It may be that something has changed in the AI code that makes the AI not explore enough in the current game.

Re: Strange Agoraphobic AI
 

1.91.

I've noticed that Krsk is right. If I allow these races to have a scout ship, they'll scout ahead, and *will* expand.

Thing that gets me, is that these two freak races seem to be eager. They will expand without any scout / attack ship.

There's clearly a setting within the race files that allows this "fearless colony ship scout" behaviour.

What is it?

Re: Strange Agoraphobic AI
 

Ancient Race racial trait? If you'd like, you could email me the AI files for one of the aberrant races and one of the normal races (text only, please--I don't really need the pics on my dialup connection http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) and I'll take a look.

Re: Strange Agoraphobic AI
 

Bingo.


You're the man, Krsqk. That was it. The only two that were doing anything were the Ancient Races.

Re: Strange Agoraphobic AI
 

Bottled demon is right! Sooner or later they would be contacted by another AI, and when they reach the level of 'partnership' with some other AI they will get all the maps that their partner has and start pouring out of their home system. An interesting variation on the 'neutral' in that they will react more like you would expect a race to react when discovering it is possible to leave their system. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Effectively, you will have a new racial trait -- 'expansionist' -- which you assign or remove by the use of Attack ships in their build lists. A 'normal' AI is effectively expansionist, while AIs without the exploring ships are not.

Re: Strange Agoraphobic AI
 

For the purposes of the mod that I will probably never produce, I do not intend this AI to make Partnerships. I think I can keep them from doing so, I believe it is done with other AIs.

This particular race would be given some very potent technology, sort of a Here There be Dragons variation on the Space Monsters, only they might be a little more communicative.

My previous plan was to just give them very little supplies, so the ships sould be called back before they could get to far, though that would make it possible for them to spread a little, and might keep them from colonizing their home system, depending on planet placement.

If this works the way it sounds, and espeically if Boarders, Kamakazi, Carriers, Drone Carriers, Mine Layers, and Sat Layers will not traverse unexplored warp points, I van include angels and devils, heavens and hells, in that mod that I will probably never produce.

Also, by giving away the right System Maps, a player could direct these monstrosities into the systems of his enemies. He had just better be prepared to never make use of those systems himself.

[ February 26, 2004, 15:54: Message edited by: Loser ]

Re: Strange Agoraphobic AI
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, I think the trait is more on the other side, and I would call it Hesitant. The AI is not willing to step through any Warp Point until it knows what is on the other side. Even seeing a ship come through is not good enough, they have to be given a picture of hte other side.

I think I'd like to see some decent AIs set up this way, sort of Neutral++. They'd need a different tech progression in addition to different ship designs. I mean, they're still weak, but if you're going to play with Neutrals anyway, might as well make them a little more interesting.

Re: Strange Agoraphobic AI
 

So your plan is to replace the current neutral AIs with agorophibic AIs?

Re: Strange Agoraphobic AI
 

No, in that mod I will probably never produce I am replacing the Neutrals with 'minor races' who will have some of the aspects of the player races, in that some special technologies can be trade or taken from them that would otherwise only be available form a player race. They can also be Uplifted, if a player race trades them the right techs, and minor races will be able to leave their systems, once they get ships.

I'm planning on using your agoraphobes as Space Monsters.

Re: Strange Agoraphobic AI
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Whoa, does this mean that if I build an AI and give them only Colony ships they will colonize the freak out of their homes system but not ever step outside?

That's great. I know exactly what to do with that.

What if I don't give them Attack Ships, but instead Boarding and Kamakazi Ships with attack-style designs?

Would this allow them to have an agressive and built up fleet wihtout ever making it out of their home system?

If they are given star charts, assuming they accept, will they follow those charts out of their home system and expand along the given route?

There is so much possibility here. If this works it means I can have a Bottled Demon AI. Don't let them out!

[edit] What about Carriers or Drone Carriers or Sat Layers? Do these explore while the AI is in any mode?

[ February 26, 2004, 13:25: Message edited by: Loser ]

Re: Strange Agoraphobic AI
 

Now that I think about it, Carrier designs may explore as well.

The main concern with building a ship-heavy "Hesitant" race is maintenance--you'd need some sort of special economic tech to allow them to build masses of ships. And drones. Drones would be great--lots and lots of drones all over the place. Of course, they'd all be gone after the first battle, but what a battle that would be! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Strange Agoraphobic AI
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">that's not true. I cannot recall for all the individual design types (boarding, kamikaze, carrier, etc.), but two things I know for sure:
1) fleets will explore (regardless of the design types included)
2) attack bases will explore

In fact the attack base design types are great for exploring, since they are not included into fleets and wander off alone. Scout ship designs using the attack base design type can help the AI explore and expand.

Re: Strange Agoraphobic AI
 

Loser - I like your idea for the bottled demon AI. Some testing regarding boarding ships, carriers and kamikaze ships needs to be done. In any case you'll want to use a high number of turns that the AI doesn't use fleets. So the AI will not venture out for, say, the first 100 turns.

[ February 27, 2004, 21:19: Message edited by: Rollo ]

Re: Strange Agoraphobic AI
 

While I like the 'keep hem bottled up then let them out' idea for a lot of other settings, for that mod that I will probably never produce I would need the buggers to stay put until someone takes action to get them out. And even then I'd like to have it possible to avoid them, mostly.

Since fleets will explore, I guess that means no fleets for this AI. As inconvenient as that sounds, it should be okay, as each of their ships will approximate SE IV godhood in every way that can be done. This AI/empire/specialized-racial-tech combination is not meant to be beaten, just avoided. Here There Be Dragons.

Even if Colony Ships are the only ships that don't explore this little idea is more full-bodied than it was before, as they can at least fill out their home system now, and are still intimidating even if they use only Fighters and Drones.

[ February 27, 2004, 21:43: Message edited by: Loser ]

Re: Strange Agoraphobic AI
 

I did a quick hack with one of my AI and tested them.
Results:
1) Kamikaze and boarding ships do not explore on their own (when not part of a fleet), but sit on the homeworld.
2) Carriers, as Krsqk suspected, do explore.
3) Satellite layers are deploying sats on the warp points.

Re: Strange Agoraphobic AI
 

Thank you for looking into this Rollo.

If a Kamikaze or Boarding Ship is built on another world does it move to the homeworld?

If an invader enters the system will the Kamikaze or Boarding Ship move to engage?

Since Sat Layers work is it safe to assume that Mine Layers will work too?

What about Stellar Manipulation Ships? They will open additional Wrap Points, I assume, but will they explore them?

Again, Rollo, thank you for looking into this. With so many of the Old Guard AI designers missing it is gret that you still respond to inquiries like this.

Re: Strange Agoraphobic AI
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yes

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yes and no. They might try to engage and then 'chicken out' on second thought. The AI is easily scared by superior numbers and since all these ships would engange on their own it is not really effective. That is the big downside of not using fleets. (but more on this later)

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yes

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The warp point openers would not explore (fairly certain). I have noticed an odd tendency by the AI, however, to not open warp points from their home system though. So they might not open any warp points at all, even when they have a ship available.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You are welcome. Hey, this is a hobby of mine http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Because of the poor performance of the single boarding and kamikaze ships I tried something else: Defense Ships. I removed all the kamikaze and boarding ships from the queue and built only Defense Ships as warships. Also I set the 'Fleets Dont Use For Num Turns' back to 10, so the defense ships would form fleets.

Defense ships build their own fleets and don't mix with attack, carriers, boarding, etc. I just tested this and found that defense fleets do not explore. And they do engage the enemy in a much more efficient way then the lone ships would http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Hope this helps. It certainly gives me some food for thought on implementing monsters and other nasty things http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif .

Rollo

Re: Strange Agoraphobic AI
 

oh, and to adress Litcube's original problem.
Try this for the start of your vehicle construction queue:

AI State := Exploration
Num Queue Entries := ...
Entry 1 Type := Colonizer
Entry 1 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 1 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 2 Type := Attack Base
Entry 2 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 2 Must Have At Least := 1
Entry 3 Type := ...

Since the AI will put 3 items in the queue, you'll get two colonizers and a scout.

Also make sure that you have a valid 'Attack Base' design from game start (Size Minimum Tonnage := 10) and put some extra supply on it for better exploring http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .
Here is an example of a pretty straight-forward one:

Name := Scout
Design Type := Attack Base
Vehicle Type := Ship
Default Strategy := Optimal Firing Range
Size Minimum Tonnage := 10
Size Maximum Tonnage := 400
Num Must Have At Least 1 Ability := 0
Must Have Ability 1 := Weapon
Minimum Speed := 4
Desired Speed := 6
Majority Weapon Family Pick 1 := 22
Majority Weapon Family Pick 2 := 25
Majority Weapon Family Pick 3 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 4 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 5 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 1 := 25
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 2 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 3 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 4 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 5 := 0
Shields Spaces Per One := 250
Armor Spaces Per One := 0
Majority Comp Spaces Per One := 10000
Majority Comp Ability := Weapon
Secondary Comp Spaces Per One := 200
Secondary Comp Ability := Weapon
Num Misc Abilities := 9
Misc Ability 1 Name := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Misc Ability 1 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 2 Name := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Misc Ability 2 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 3 Name := Supply Storage
Misc Ability 3 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 4 Name := Point-Defense
Misc Ability 4 Spaces Per One := 130
Misc Ability 5 Name := Solar Supply Generation
Misc Ability 5 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 6 Name := Solar Supply Generation
Misc Ability 6 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 7 Name := Extra Movement Generation
Misc Ability 7 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 8 Name := Supply Storage
Misc Ability 8 Spaces Per One := 20
Misc Ability 9 Name := Self-Destruct
Misc Ability 9 Spaces Per One := 10000

Re: Strange Agoraphobic AI
 

Wow, thanks Rollo. Ya learn something new everyday.

I was always under the impression that the attack base design was a space station..

I've noticed you AI pros use "must have at least" rather than the "number per planet". Oleg originally introduced me to this idea.

Aren't you worried about scaling? I think I still don't fully understand this concept.