Temporal Strategy
 

Hey there Empire fiends!

I have decided to start a game with high technology and 5000 racepoints to see what kind of end-game designs I could come up with... Well the answer is SWEET! Upon discovering mounts (thanks for the help) I was able to try several designs. I usually play temporal technology and found that in the high-end game it is probably the most powerful tech (at least for me)... It's just the weapons, combined with mounts, are so powerful it's almost too easy to defeat other race's dreadnoughts in a 1-1 battle. For example, I have found the combination of heavy and massive mounts + shield accelerators + tachyon cannons are so powerful I can usually destroy an enemy dreadnought in 3-5 turns! Time distortion burst is extremely powerful with 4x dmg to shields and you don't have to use the shield accelerators taking up space. So you can have even more weapons. Well, I will discuss my strategies for owning the game with temporal in the end-game...

Started with, ancient tech, temporal tech, advanced storage. Artisans. Increased space combat modifiers and maintenance/repair/construction. 1 Homeworld, AI bonus.

1) Stellar manipulation is your friend!
The first thing I did was to create a stellar star destroyer (nebulae). They are fairly cheap as manipulators go, and with my temporal space yard I cranked plenty out in the first couple turns. I was ancient race so I quickly found out where the enemy was starting. As homeworlds don't start with system shields I was able to wipe out half the AI's fledling empires in the first encounters. But I was playing HUGE galaxy so I couldn't get there fast enough to wipe out all of them. Ships get destroyed when you destroy a star so I had to rebuild them over and over and send them out, not quick enough...
2) Alliances - not sure about them
I first made alliances really quickly, thinking I could be the great "peacekeepers" of the galaxy. Turns out I had partners with almost all of the enemy AI and they proceeded to abuse their partner privileges, by colonizing right next to my home system! So I proceeded to use tactic (1) to clear out those systems. It worked great! I then quickly constructed ringworlds in the empty systems (clear nebulae/create star/create ringworld). It takes a long time, but if you protect your ships with fleets, the enemy will usually bypass you in an empty system. It is well worth it as a full ringworld will give you +100% production due to population.
3) Bases
Star bases and battle stations protecting your colonies are the ultimate protection with temporal. With their superb mounts, you can up your dmg considerably with the temp weps... I use time distortion bursts (you can fill a starbase with tons of these while still having plenty of room for shields/whatnot) or a combo of shield accelerators / beam weps (more can fit) or tachyon cannons (insane almost 1000dmg!). I had one starbase destroy a fleet of psychic ships (12 dreadnoughts) with 10 or so time distortion bursts.
4) Attack ships
Using the same idea as the bases, you can create a formidable mixed fleet. I typically use a mixed fleet of dreadnoughts, battleships, and cruisers. On my dreads I have shield accelerators and tachyons for terrible dmg w/mounts. On my battleships I usually have shield accelerators with beams. I tend to not use the advanced shield and armor skipping weapons (null space, etc.) because they have a terrible refire rate. Shield accelerators can do 900dmg with huge mounts and fire every turn while tachyon cannons can do massive dmg every 2 turns. Standard beam weps can do about half (or 1/3 I forget) of the cannons but fire every turn, good to keep armor down on organics. On my cruisers, I just load up on seekers. I tend not to use fighters unless in a fleet battle. I also tend not to use troops as my homeworlds and ringworlds produce way too much resources for me to keep up with anyways.
5) Planet attacking
Most planets in the end game from empires that start far away from you have a huge number of weapons platforms on their planets. The best strategy I have found for defeating these is to use fleets of seeker-laden cruisers to overwhelm their point defense. 15+ cruisers with 5 capital ship missiles each have enough fire power to overwhelm the enemy point defense and deliver significant enough dmg. Add even more cruisers 25+ and the combat will be pretty short. ALWAYS use tactical when doing this, as I usually put 1 or 2 other weps besides the seekers to keep the fleet somewhat balanced. If you hit strategic, even using maximum wep range, they will fire their cruisers and then stupidly go up to the planet to use their shorter range weps, thereby destroying themselves to massive mount weapons platforms. I lost a fleet of 45+ ships doing this on a heavily defended planet because I got cocky.
6) Colonizing OutPosts
I tend to build up my home system and the 3 or 4 that surround it and use atmosphere converters to boost my pop. Trust me it's better if you want to keep alliances while being #1 score as the ai won't see you as an expansionist. In fact my population is greater than any other empire while I only hold 5 systems and they hold over 20 each.
IF you like to build outPosts or HAVE to for long range conquests I suggest finding a star and building a ringworld. You can defend one world better than 10 colonies, and it will have a 100% production rate after a while, great for building quick cruiser fleets. With temporal space yards it won't take long to build the ships necessary to make the components (1.9 years).


My general strategy is scorched earth. I heavily populate a couple systems, build up ridiculous defenses, then create a buffer around my empire with nebulae. Under differing circumstances I could see black holes, but you can build alot of defense bases over warp points in a nebulae system (watch the AI destroy themselves on it). When I conquer a system I then destroy it, to prevent my enemies from ever occupying it again...

Hitches in my strategy:
If you don't use the weapons right you could be meat for the grinder when facing crystalline/organic/psychic races.
If you don't build resource gatherers first, your high costing temporal components (both production and maintenance wise) will drain your empire quick!
Beware of exploding stars! I had a star explode in my homeworld system, it destroyed half my empire... of course there is a ringworld there now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
The only problem I can't get around is weapons platforms using massive mounts on seekers. I can't seem to destroy this one planet which has more wp than I can count, I usually would build up a massive fleet of seeker-cruisers, but their seekers have a range of 19-20! So I can't even get close. I guess I will just have to have a massive fleet of VERY heavy hitting dreadnoughts, with some seeker support to take out those wp's.


TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Temporal Strategy
 

Wow, I wish I could type that much.

Re: Temporal Strategy
 

Carry troops - you can invade the weak planets as you go and pick up some extra resource / intel planets along the way and i usually have troops with my fleets. That way you can spread out and back invade. This doesnt slow the fleet down but prevents the enemy re colonizing systems. Place some mines around warp points - or defensive bases and you are set.

Re: Temporal Strategy
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't play much, but it seems to me that specialized ships like those should be specalized and the beam weapons are useless for there purpose.

Re: Temporal Strategy
 

I have tried the strategy of using seekers to outrange weapon platforms, and even with all seekers (no beam weapons) and max. weapon range, the ships go into range of the planet (not too bright).

As for using tactical... well.. I only play on PBW, and you *can't* use tactical. Unfortunate, but the computer doesn't do a good job of using such specialized designs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

Probably just stick to my boring, generic designs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

To be honest, I haven't used the temporal tree all that much, as I've found that no weapon does more damage/turn than maxed out anti-proton beams, and they always seem to win out over designs using more unique weapons (in strategic combat)

Re: Temporal Strategy
 

If you are becoming too over-confident about your successes against the AI, try real opponents, I suggest PBW. It helps http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Temporal Strategy
 

looks like your having fun... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Those are very expensive ships your building there... How do they do when they are out numbered 2 to 1
??


Also try them against the standard enemy build of a few SD's a few Ions and APB12

Re: Temporal Strategy
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Try taking Hardy Industrialist to get the most out of your Temporal Spaceyards. Drop repair (and something else) to 50% to get the points.

And I suggest using a different culture -warrior/berserker are good for combat, merchant lowers your maintenance quite a bit, and engineers would bump up your construction even more.

And then, when you are feeling invincible, prepare to be humbled in a PBW game against other humans (and Eee).

Re: Temporal Strategy
 

If I were the computer oponent facing you, I would build some nice Organic Battlecruisers that move fast and have no weapons other than armor and explosive warheads. I would then ram your large fleet that loves to use quad damaging shield weapons. I would also throw at you a couple hundred fighters that are hard to hit and can down a large ship quickly (just to keep you busy).
But then again I am not the AI, so I would have to use that tactic (or maybe not) on the pbw battlefield. Enlist in a friendly pbw war and see the many different tactics ...

Re: Temporal Strategy
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">doing it wrong. make a custom strategy, max range / dont get hurt. target nearest. that way, you wont try to move into range while ignoring a near danger. and you will run away while reloading instead of closing while reloading.

also, dont put PD on your missile ships. if you do, they will close with missiles, sats, drones, and fighters. use dedicated PD ships instead.

Re: Temporal Strategy
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">But remember to put one dummy beam weapon on your PD ships so they won't just run off in the corner like the cowards they are http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Temporal Strategy
 

You know, I used to think I was pretty darn good at SEIV...then I found out about PBW. And got my arse handed to me on a platter...every single time to date!

Join PBW. Humility will follow.

thanks,

alarik

EDIT: didn't mean to imply that the posters ain't humble, just thought it sounded like a good catchphrase (Like "join the navy, see the world..." "join PBW, get humbled...")

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Try taking Hardy Industrialist to get the most out of your Temporal Spaceyards. Drop repair (and something else) to 50% to get the points.

And I suggest using a different culture -warrior/berserker are good for combat, merchant lowers your maintenance quite a bit, and engineers would bump up your construction even more.

And then, when you are feeling invincible, prepare to be humbled in a PBW game against other humans (and Eee). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

[ March 05, 2004, 19:37: Message edited by: alarikf ]

Re: Temporal Strategy
 

That post reminds me of when I first got SEIV - everything was new and "Hey, look what I found!" ...remember that? ...when everything was new?

...and another looses his (known) life to the addiction we all call SEIV.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Just my own personal suggestion: NEVER get rid of the Advanced Storage trait. ...and if you want more challenge, leave most of your setup points unused and the AI bonuses high. After a while you WILL beat up on the AI using all your points....

Re: Temporal Strategy
 

[quote]Originally posted by Puke:

Quote:

Originally posted by Tanus: [qb] ... also, dont put PD on your missile ships. if you do, they will close with missiles, sats, drones, and fighters. use dedicated PD ships instead.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Much better solution: select "don't fire on seakers, fighters, etc" in max. range strategy for missile ships. PDC will still fire on everything in range but ships won't go hunting ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Temporal Strategy
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Gotta agree with you there. My favorite Endgame design uses APB 12's and they can typically handle impressive numbers. I recall one PBW game where it was a first military encounter with my ships and another empires. I had attacked his fleet of 25 with my 5. I didn't expect my ships to survive. I just wanted to slow them down so that my fleet of 42 that was on the way from the next system could finish the job. Turned out that his ships were too diverse in there function and didn't have the fire power needed. He fired first and I didn't loose a single ship of the five. Of course, he learned quick and our next encounter didn't go as well...

[ March 06, 2004, 00:44: Message edited by: bearclaw ]

Re: Temporal Strategy
 

OK I am not gonna reply to all of you one at a time because of too many Posts. So I will reply on strategies.

Yes, enough beam weaps will do alot of dmg. But when I do use them I mix them with shield accelerators for max dmg. I prefer to use tachyon cannons because they have a better dpt (dmg per turn) in most cases.

Organics: Yeah they are a pain, but temporal tech also has armor skipping weps http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . I could also just use null-space (which I keep at least one of on my designs to knock out engines/weps) or I could use weapon destroying weps, which go through armor http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . Organic is not the end-all be-all of SE4. Tried it, didn't like so much http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif If you keep the dpt up, you can easily beat organics with their fancy armor. Plus, quad dmg weps still do 90 dmg with one hit, so they are not useless against those http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Troops: Still don't like them at all when playing end game. I would rather scorch earth. My 5 systems are usually twice the size in population and production than their 20-30. Plus it creates a nice buffer zone when playing against ai.

Tactical: I almost always do tactical combat. 9 times out of 10 I am smarter than letting the compie do my grunt work. Wormhole weapons are a godsend for tactical. It's called crowd control (learned from everquest, believe it or not). I can concentrate my fire while their ships have to keep coming at me from 20 sectors away http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I can usually use smaller fleets to accomplish bigger goals.

PBW: I would probably never play. I am a tactical player to the end! I don't trust computer skirmishes (see below post about losing 45 well designed ships).

So there ya go. Keep telling me your opinions!

Re: Temporal Strategy
 

Oh I forgot. One of my dreads took out 4 other dreads of the enemy ai. Depending on the race it's usually 2-4 one of them can handle http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif It's a really nice design I think. I call them "Eden" and I usually name my fleets "Beware the Garden" or something like that. LOL that comes from Homeworld, another great space game. Anyone remember the Gardens of Cadesh? That is what I call my starbases http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif The only snags I come up against are again, maxed out beam ships... 7 of those took out one of my Cadesh starbases. It was the only time the enemy AI won against them *sigh*

Also, about expensive ships. When you have 3 ringworlds and 20+ breathable colonies all using monolith IIIs and value improvement plants, you don't worry about resources too much. Remember, I started end game.

Bring on the opinions!

Re: Temporal Strategy
 

In regards to organics, I also agree that they aren't all they are cracked up to be. I played against an Organic player on PBW and he relied heavily on baseships heavily armoured with organic. But what he didn't do was put any shields on. I took out a major fleet of his with nothing more than a fleet of heavily shielded boarding ships! Don't think I had a single weapon in the entire fleet. It's been a while now so I can't quite recall.

Re: Temporal Strategy
 

Don't forget about Ionic Dispersers! If you have no shields, they make mince meat of your fleets. The enemy can set their ships to max range. They will fire, knock out all engines, then fall back. Your ships that can not move are not able to keep up! What is worse is if you do not include a supply storage or quantum reactor component. If your ship has 0 supplies, it can not fire its weapons.

Re: Temporal Strategy
 

Note:
Ships with no supplies can still fire weapons that use zero supplies per shot!

Point Defense Lasers in P&N, for example.

Re: Temporal Strategy
 

I also enjoy the Temporal trait in my games. And while APB12 are the best weapon in a max tech game Temporal is still a great trait, even weapon wise. The Distortion Burst and the Accelerator are both great weapons even in an APB ship design. They can take the place of the shield depleters and offer either more regular damage plus good shield depletion for the Distortion Burst or even more shield depletion at better range for a little extra cost.

Production wise extra cost is nothing for temporal because of the temporal spaceyards. Cost wise... most of the cost in temporal weapons is in radioactive. I don't know about anyone else but I can count the number of times I have run out of radioactives on one hand (or anything other than minerals for that matter).

The advantages for the Temporal are much improved production, good weapons that can Last clear to the end game and a scanner built right in with everything. And of course nice happiness controls built in as well. The weakness of temporal is higher costs and mostly it only improves on things that can be gained normally anyways.

Like all the extras I would argue that it is worthwhile but not so dominating that if you have it you win and if you don't you lose(I think that title could only possibly goto advanced storage techniques).

But that is just my opinion. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PS: I never play tactical combat even in single player. It makes it too easy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif I actually find it quite satisfying to develop strategy orders for the AI that make it fight effectively without direct intervention. It's also good practice for PBW.

Re: Temporal Strategy
 

Temporal has some good things in it. Like all racial tech areas, if they didn't, they wouldn't be worth paying for. The minimaxer munchkin's question then becomes whether they are worth the 1500 points or not. Fortunately, the game is varied enough that non minimaxer munchkins can enjoy the game and win with a variety of techs and techniques, especially against the unmodded AI.

I find it interesting that almost every "praise Temporal" message I've seen ignores the things that look best about it to me. I tried to use it once in a tough PBW competetive game, and lost, mainly because I was playing against a top-ace player, and because I was basing my strategy on a Temporal ability that doesn't work as well as I thought it would (which is a good thing, because even though misleading, it'd be a bit overpowered in some situations).

PvK

Re: Temporal Strategy
 

I enjoy Temporal too. In fact, if I ever play a racial tech empire, I always choose Temporal. I just can't justify any other race over Temporal Shipyards.

Re: Temporal Strategy
 

You are forgetting one major point of using organic trait. It makes your ships cheaper. You can build at least 30% faster and upkeep a fleet far greater than other players. Organic weapons are less powerful, yes, but If I can make Light cruiser in 2 turns instead of 4 (at the beginning of the game) I am going to kick anybody's *** who has temporal, crystalline or actually any other trait because I can have twice as many ships in my fleet in a short time. At least in the beginning. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Organic armor is not that good, I agree, but I add few pieces of it because relying only to shields is utter stupidity. Best protection you can have with at least 11 crystal armor and 2 shields (I am too tired to tell the math inside it, but when using enough crystal armor and shields, no weapon which makes under 150 damage, can harm you).

Re: Temporal Strategy
 

excellent thread! i almost always use temporal, mostlty because i am addicted to temporal space yards which can pump out serious numbers of drones (muhahwahaha). i also love temporal shield depleters!!

u guys rock.

Re: Temporal Strategy
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What was that?

Re: Temporal Strategy
 

I was counting on the Event Predictor "combat" bonus to increase my defense as well as my offense (like experience and cultural "combat" bonuses). I learned the hard way that it only increases offense. Otherwise, my other bonuses would have made my ships nearly unhittable. It's a misleading description, though - it should say it gives a bonus to hit, not a "combat" bonus.

PvK

Re: Temporal Strategy
 

Hmm... that certainly sucks. Just tested it out and it is true. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

Re: Temporal Strategy
 

Interesting.

Re: Temporal Strategy
 

The alternative is to begin with organic - get boarding parties then capture the temporal ships as you go - they can prove useful - also get psychic ships with ship capture they also prove useful.

Re: Temporal Strategy
 

Haven't used temporal tech very much. I like religious because of the shrines and the talisman, and organic because of their replicate centers and organic armor. My favorite shrine is the Nature shrine. It's nice to build just one of those and have all your planets in the system improve in condition and value each year. Replicate centers really help increase your population. Those organic armor ships are great for ramming. As for crystalline tech, with their armor-piercing crystal shard cannons, it's great against organic races.

Re: Temporal Strategy
 

I have played couple of games with religious and few with crystal and few with organic races. Religious is too cheap because of talisman and nature shrine. Both are undeniably most effective components of their class in the game. Now I only participate games where at least talisman is forbidden (if not religious itself). It's not even fun to play when you automatically hit everything you see (except if my ships are trained so well).