upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

I don't think there is a way around this, but I thought I'd ask everyone how they handle this. Let's assume that you have researched "Applied Research" far enough to be able to build Research Center III's. With default construction rates for a planet without a spaceyard (2000 M, 2000 O, 2000 R), I like to build Research Center II's until the planet is full and then upgrade to level III's because II's can be built in 1 turn, but III's take 2 turns to build. Let's leave other variables out of this discussion for now like Central Computer Complexes and System Computer Complexes and using spaceyards everywhere. I use the same scheme with mineral miners, intel centers, etc.

Here's the part that bugs me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif Once I get level III of any of the facilities, upgrading facilities has to be done on a per-planet basis. I can no longer use the Construction Queues screen to "upgrade facilities" because it will switch all my level II facilities in various construction queues to level III's. What I really want to do is only upgrade those planets which are already full. I actually dread getting my first level III facility of any kind because of this, and that level III facilities aren't that much better than level II's.

So here's the question: how do you guys handle this? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Slick.

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

I personally try to avoid cheesey exploits like building obselete facilities to upgrade them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

Thanks for that bit of insight.

Slick.

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

I asked MM for the option to upgrade specific facilities instead of 'all of nothing' numerous times. We can choose to scrap specific facilities globally, after all... Like so many other interesting ideas, it never got a response.

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Usually with a beer or two to ease the pain.

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Usually with a beer or two to ease the pain. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That pretty much answers my question. Unfortunately. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Slick.

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

Can you do a multi-add for upgrades? I realize it's not convenient, but it's an option, and perhaps a step above doing each planet one at a time.

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hey, you asked how we handled it... that is how I handle it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I do not believe so, no. You also can not add facilities with the multi-add feature.

[ March 08, 2004, 05:02: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

I thought the patch notes said something about adding a new feature with upgrades.

As for how I do things, I almost never intentionally hit the dang "upgrade all" button - I hate that thing. It's a pain to hit by accident, and then have to go around cancelling stupid upgrades. Of course, it's a lot more annoying in mods where upgrading is not a trivial decision - in which case that global upgrade button is a curse.

PvK

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

I believe that was in reference to the bug where you could build one facility, add an upgrade to the higher level, then move that upgrade to the back continually as you build more facilities. You can then upgrade all of them for the cost of just one facility.

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

Ah, I think you're right, thanks. That was a bad one all right.

PvK

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

Is it possible to upgrade a level 1 facility to level 2 after you have researched level 3?
Because everytime I go to a planet to upgrade a level 1 the only upgrade option I see its the level 3.
It appears that the level 3 overrides the level 2 or something, so the only thing I can do its to not research level 3.

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

The upgrade is fully intended to upgrade older, obselete facilities built before you got the latest tech level to the latest level of facility, so no, you can not do that. Too bad obselete facilities can not be made unbuildable. :-\

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

Too bad the latest facilities can not be made unupgradable-to. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

Yes, for mods like Proportions that would be good. We just need more options! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That is simple is it not? Same facility name, different family number = no upgrade, correct?

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

well, this is the way I handle it:

if you choose Hardly industrial every SY will build 2500, enough for lvl 3. (but I usually dont choose HI)

instead I try to get to min lvl 2 and applied research lvl 2 pretty fast, focusing on these facilities to be build (instead of the lvl 1)
before I research lvl 3 of them I try to research the upgraded SY (prefered both levels at once, so I only need one upgrade per planet, but that might be too expensive sometimes.) this means I research lvl 3 res and mins pretty late, obviously.

If I somehow get lvl 3 earlier (through tech trade -> minerals, or through ruins) I do the following.
I usually play with an construction rate of 120% so I only need 100 mio pop on every planet to build them in one turn. if I am able to distribute this population in time I build the SY first, and then build the lvl 3 facilities. if I am not able to get the necessary pop amount to that planet I dont build a SY, but build lvl 2 facilities instead. I build my SY in the end and then upgrade the facilities. usually I start building lvl 2 fasc. and 5 turns before my transport arrives I start building a SY. (however, on small planets its usually smarter to build lvl 2 facilities.)

in anyway, forget the upgrade all button as soon as you research lvl 3.

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

It's not such a big deal, so it takes two turns instead of one if you don't have enough population/construction bonuses. Eventually the planet will become full and sit around and do nothing anyways. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's much more than just another turn.

If you take advanced storage techniques, a huge world has 30 slots. Filling it up in 30 turns instead of 60 turns is a big improvement. Replace the Last slot with the appropriate planetary booster facility and while that's being built, queue up the upgrade for the remaining slots. Then finally use emergency build when there is a total of 1.5 years left and you have maximized your output. Sure, it costs a little more, but if you are talking minerals, it pays for itself. If you are talking orgs or rads, with a resource converter, it also pays for itself. For research or intel, I also like doing this because it's all about bringing in points sooner.

To each his own, and Fyron need not reply again saying this is cheesy. I'm sure that there are no other point maximizers out there besides me anyway, so this discussion is just for academic purposes. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Nor has anyone posted an article about max/minning race characteristics, because that's also covered in cheese whiz. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Slick.

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

I'm sure you could transport enough population in the stock game to alleviate about 20-25 of those additional turns. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

...and if you are cheesey enough to do the upgrade trick...then you're probably cheesey enough to take enough construction bonuses at the start too... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

And Fyron is in no way cheesey at all - because retrofit series building is nothing like the upgrade shortcut is it??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

There are far too many tongues in this thread.

Slick.

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

Wow, that's a neat trick to build facilities faster. Well, I'll resort to whatever cheesy tactics I can use, when I'm in a desperate situation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That was actually made so that people would stop losing horribly just because they did not take the appropriate combat bonuses at the start of the game. More of a way to level the playing field than anything. It is just knowledge that most people pick up on after their first several sound thrashings resulting in having a poorly designed empire against those with well designed empires. Hardly any cheesier than a Newbie FAQ with Strategy Articles. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif In fact, it is just like the Strategy Articles, except far more specific, as the way you spend racial points has a HUGE effect on the outcome of the game. Some degree of min/maxing is necessary to remain competitive in PBW games and not be instantly steam-rolled over.

Maximizing racial point usage is a far cry from exploiting the upgrade mechanics in this manner.

Kwok, retroseries building is more of an outgrowth of being used to the SE3 construction, where you build ships by repairing them in the first place. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif I rarely ever retroseries build, and even then, it is only when I have a huge surplus of resources laying around that are going to waste. What else should I do with them, give them to my enemies? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Just one more thing to banish from future PBW games...

[ March 09, 2004, 03:28: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

All tactics are cheese. In fact, everything is cheese. Even the moon. Just ask Narf. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif (couldn't resist)

Slick.

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Filled, baby, yeah! don't leave home without it.

Slick.

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Filled, baby, yeah! don't leave home without it.

Slick. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Bleh.
I still have to erase Cultural Centers to build those facilities that gives the production and research bonuses.
I can't destroy a CC, that's a crime against humanity!
Imagine all those millions of tiny little virtual people under my whim and command now left homeless because I need more resources.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ March 09, 2004, 15:10: Message edited by: SB ]

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">True, it's difficult to remove a cultural center. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif However, compared to a non advanced storage player you are better off with 12 cultural centers and bonus facs then you are 12 cc's and no bonus facs.

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

so from following this thread it goes like this.

build 1 level one mineral miner
que in the upgrade.

Add the rest of the mineral miners

and move the upgrade to the end.

Then the upgrade upgrades all the minerals miners
for the price of one .

Is this what i am reading here ?

Tesco works too much in aix now... so command promts are taking over his sleep

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I too hate this bug. It prevents me from researching Lv3 of things and still get max output per timeunit.

A solution I use is only a very partial one. I set up the Fill Queue button with the facilities at lv2. I use Groups of 7. Then even when you upgrade all things, you can go to each queue, clear it, and add back the LV2 items. This saves you from setting and resetting the Latest button. Once the Fill Queue items are made it will save with your empire. For new games you can adjust that empire for whatever needs to be set and still keep the Fills.

Doing this is still a pain, but with the Clear Queue and Fill Queue buttons it can be a little better. It still allows you to build an Atmosphere plant Lv1 then right before it is finished, use the Upgrade all to change it to an AtmPlant III in mid construction.

(Edited to remove most of quote)

[ March 09, 2004, 21:28: Message edited by: Parasite ]

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, not at all. That was a bug that was patched. The exploit Slick is talking about is building obselete Mineral Miner IIs, then upgrading them to Mineral Miner III when the planet is full to save on build time.

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, not at all. That was a bug that was patched. The exploit Slick is talking about is building obselete Mineral Miner IIs, then upgrading them to Mineral Miner III when the planet is full to save on build time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is what you're calling an exploit???? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif I though the exploit was what tesco said. Building 2 Mineral Miner facility II's instead in one III is hardly an exploit. It is a design flaw in the data IMO since two lvl II's are clearly better than one lvl III so it's hardly an 'upgrade'

by this logic filling up that Last 30kt of space on my ship with a lvl 1 shield is an exploit. (since my new level 2 shields take 4okt of space) as is putting any old cheap components on a ship.

[ March 09, 2004, 17:44: Message edited by: DavidG ]

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

It is not an exploit. <- period.

Slick.

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

It is an exploit. <- Period.

We can all do that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif It is exploiting the upgrade mechanics to do something that makes no sense at all. Why would people build obselete research/mining/etc. facilities, then set about upgrading them to the latest technologies? They would just start building them with the latest equipment right off the bat... this is the sense it which it is an exploit. It makes 0 logical sense, and is only done to get an unwarranted advantage by using a loop hole in the game mechanics.

[ March 09, 2004, 17:56: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

Well, we'll use a real life example of 0 sense. When providing domestic aid to 3rd world countries, the US often sets up low tech water pumping stations, sewers and crude medical facilities in tents. I guess they should be building car manufactoring plants, internet cafes and medical centers staffed by UCLA. I'll inform them that they are exploiting a loophole. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Slick.

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">uh because old tech is cheap?? It's not an exploit period. High tech cost money so you build the cheap old one and then upgrade when you can afford it.

Foolish people on Earth buy cars whith inferior cheap technology (ie the car radio) and then 'upgrade' them later with new high tech kick *** stereos.

there are probably tons more real world examples were this kind of thing happens.

What makes 0 sense is for the game to tell me my inexpensive Faclity II's are obsolete.

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

What gives you the right to say what makes sense in the future? Does it make sense that a factory could be built in one months time that will produce 1/18th of a worlds economic production? It's a game man. Get a grip. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

If such a factory were possible, it would likely would entail some sort of prefabricated modular building techniques. So thinking an empire would build the fastest building it can to get some production going and then upgrade later is perfectly reasonable.

DO you have a clue how governments operate? Why do our highways fall apart after five years when we have the technology to build roads that Last decades? Because we cut corners and use obsolete technology to get the job done faster and cheaper. After it's in we can fix it/upgrade it.

Have you ever bought/built a pc? WOuld you sit around with no computer waiting to get enough money together to buy only the latest most expensive components? Or would you go to a computer show and buy stuff that's a little older and a lot cheaper? SO you can get a computer up and running faster? Cause you can always upgrade to better components on the next payday, right? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

Another example in the car vein is a tactic often used by car manufacturers to meet production quotas. They will leave parts off sometimes to get them out the factory doors with the plan that the dealership mechanics can finish the installation before selling it. In effect the car is a lower technology vehicle that's being upgraded later on.

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I will write them up for using the retrofit exploit.

*grabs a crayon...*

Slick.

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

More specific example closer to a facility:

Houses are often built with unfinished basements.

Office buildings are almost always built with parts of the building unfinished, sometimes entire floors, until paying tennants are found and the interior design is customized to their specifications. Waiting to build the building until you had 100% occupancy lined up and waiting would be ridiculous.

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

The Capitol Building in Washington D.C. was originally built without the giant dome you see today. The building was built in a rush and congress was using it for years before the Level III Dome Upgrade was completed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Shall we go on? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think it is more a problem with the construction queues not wrapping from turn to turn. I would happly build 4 LV3s in five turns If it were possible (Well I would calculate which made more sense first http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) As it is now, it is a lot like desiging a ship to be finished in an exact number of turns.

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

Removing that silly restriction of having to waste production capacity if it is not used completely for the current item would really be a big improvement. It would eliminate ALL needs for silly workarounds, and most of the micromanagement still needed for this game. Imagine not having to create ships that use exactly a multiply of your production capacity, not having to calculate if switching emergency build on/off might be useful, etc.
I really hope this silly feature will be gotten rid of in SE V.

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

Anything that helps you beat me is a cheesy tactic.

Anything that helps me beat you is a perfectly fair tactic.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

Advance Storage Techniques gives 30 slots?

Whoa, I'm getting that one next time.

Does that means that the Homeworld starts with a few empty slots or will those extra slots be filled?

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

Agreed. Allowing the construction queue to spill over would make things more "realistic" and solve a lot of the "peeves" out there, but we probably won't see any more patches.

Anyway, it looks like the community has spoken on this subject.

Slick.

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

Agreed

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

As long as we can "branch out a bit", and though it's a small thing, it would be nice if, when a planet on repeat build fills all the facility slots that it would turn off the "repeat" switch. I get irritated at going to a place and telling it to build a spy sat, or a group of fighters (or something similar) and noticing later that it is repeating that build.

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'd like 2 more things that generate log entries along this idea:

1) let me know when a planet is on emergency build but not building anything

2) let me know when a construction queue finishes so that I can do my "per planet" upgrade thing that I mentioned in the first post in this thread.

Slick.

Re: upgrading facilities pet peeve
 

On a similar note one of my pet peeves is when you upgrade a ship design and then the new design is illegal. Such as what happens when the new upgraded component takes up more space than the original (ie shields).