Coincidence ??
 

We still don't know who is responcible for the horrendous acts of terrorism in Spain yesterday.
It may be ETA or Al-Quida. But if you look on the timing, 03/11/04 - 9/11/2001 = 911 days exactly !

Got to be Al-Quida I think.

Re: Coincidence ??
 

That is interesting. And It certainly could be AQ. But do they really try that hard to schedule their attacks around significant days like that? Wouldn't a terrorist organization be more interested in hitting you when and where you aren't expecting it? When it makes the least amount of sense? So that you feel fear all the time?

If it's AQ or ETA, or both, I think the date is probably coincidence more then anything else. The did it that day because that is when they were ready to do it and had the opportunity.

Geoschmo

Re: Coincidence ??
 

Besides, I think it was actaully 912 days between those two dates. Of course Osama might have forgot about leap year. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Coincidence ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">But did anybody see it coming ?? Nobody expected it, there was no alarm anywhere in the world.

Yes, there was 911 days between bLasts but it was on the 912h day.

Re: Coincidence ??
 

I would say that they do try to "schedule" these things. It is their way of showing that they can pull off a coordinated attack when they want. Also, having it on significant days or similar dates to the previous attacks gives them more "credibility" when they claim responsibility. Sickos.

Slick.

Re: Coincidence ??
 

Well, I'm no expert, but ISTR in the past when AQ has made attacks they are quite often cordinated as in there will be multiple attacks timed to go off at the same time. But that they don't neccesarily coincide with any significant date. I know people have tried to make various cases about it, but it's always appeared to be a bit of a stretch.

This is a good example. If they wanted it to be 911 days since 911 they would have attacked on 3/10, not 3/11. I think it was likely just a coincidence.

But in the long history of the various conflicts that spur this sort of terrorism, you could throw a dart on the wall and it wouldn't be more then a few days away from some "significant" date.

Re: Coincidence ??
 

I am not trying to start something here

but did they ever proove that is was the AL-Q on the attacks on 911.

I remember they were going to release proof of this but to my knowledge it has never occured.

Again I do not mean to be disrepectful.

Me thinks it is the ETA... As it is leading up to the Euro's I am thinking that this was a way of them attempting to keep the tourists away.

Re: Coincidence ??
 

Don't attribute too much coordination to this 'freelance' network. Al Qaida is not a tight hierarchy, and never was. Very few 'terrorist' Groups are. Osama doesn't get reports and give direct approval on each attack anymore. It's just lots of Arab/Muslim malcontents who are recruited to form cells by people who had training in Afghanistan some years ago. The date being the 11th of the month is almost certainly co-incidence but the style certainly does resemble what we've seen from Al Qaida before. Someone associated with Al Qaida was involved, but it could be easily by both ETA and Al Qaida together if some ETA people were 'recruited' by a random Al Qaida operative. This is not like national governments with clear definitions of jurisdiction between one or the other. It's just an underworld of desperate radicals who will join with anyone else that can help them cause a disaster and make themselves feel powerful.

[ March 12, 2004, 15:23: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Re: Coincidence ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I believe that it was proven with the photos of the hijackers entering the airport terminals and the link between that Muhammed Atta guy and AQ.

Slick.

Re: Coincidence ??
 

Forgive my ignorance, but who or what is the ETA? Never heard of them, but from what was posted it sounds like sort of European or maybe a Basque group? If they catch these guys, how about they make them take a long walk on a short pier in the alligator-infested Everglades? But then, it is a federal crime to poison the 'gators.

[ March 12, 2004, 16:56: Message edited by: gregebowman ]

Re: Coincidence ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yup...a Basque group. ETA stands for Euskadi ta Askatasuna , which means “Basque Fatherland and Liberty”. Typical cowardly terrorist wackos. The ETA isn't officially linked to Al Qaeda...but wouldn't be surprised if it attracts some of the same characters...it seems that most people involved in these things are more interested in killing people than actually serving their "cause".

Alligators sound good...tho there has to be SOMETHING more grisly and humiliating that could be done to them...maybe death by chipmunk...beheading with pLastic spoons...dunno...

Re: Coincidence ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">These attacks don't fit ETA's usual MO - they aren't known for multiple simulataneous attacks on civilians. Besides, Basques aren't Muslim, so Al Qaeda probably wouldn't cooperate with them. My guess is this was done by an Islamofascist splinter group with the same agenda as Al Qaeda (kill anybody who isn't Muslim, and especially those who want to stop you from killing non-Muslims).

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm willing to forgo humiliation for speed and efficiency. A JDAM bomb delivered to the top of the skull works in my book.

[ March 12, 2004, 18:11: Message edited by: General Woundwort ]

Re: Coincidence ??
 

I was shocked when I saw USA Today cover shot. My God I hope that someday some can be brought to justice over that.

Re: Coincidence ??
 

You know this terrorism has gone far enough. If those GD fanatical low life nuts who commite horrific acts of violence in the name of God and religion want a GD holly war, then lets give them one. I want to say kill them all and let their God sort them out, but that would be horrifically wrong of me so what I will say is give them a war, any one who picks up a weapon, commits an act of violence, should be considered hostile and appropriate measures should be taken.

Enough is enough.

Re: Coincidence ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Unfortunately, these fanatical Groups won't be satisified until every trace of whatever they don't like of the West is eradicated. So I'm with you, Atrocities. I say we eridicate them first. Forget about catching Bin Laden, just do a Clinton and send shiploads of cruise missiles in that no-man's land in Pakistan. And if the Pakistani goverment objects, tell them tough. And let's do the same for whereever else we suspect these terrorists are hiding out. Let's show these scum we're not pussyfooting around. And if by some small chance Kerry is elected president, I think Bush should just empty our bunkers and smash these suspected sites again and again until he's out of office. Then let Kerry worry about what to do with these terrorists, if any survive.

Re: Coincidence ??
 

Greg
Get in touch with reality. Random acts of violence does not stop terrorism. It IS terrorism, and it BREEDS new terrorists. Fighting terrorist must be done with intelligence and well targeted actions, not with excess violence.
Whoever succeeds GWB (now or in 4 more years) already has plenty to worry about. The Iraq situation is not getting much better and Iraq may well become the next Afganisthan; a breeding ground for terrorists.

Re: Coincidence ??
 

Greg, for all I know, there might be some muslim fanatics hiding in Rushholme, 1 mile from my home. Do you really want to bomb Manchester ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Coincidence ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, if you give us their address, we'll just bomb that particular house. We've gotten kinda good at that the Last couple of years... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

BTW, Primitive, you're right, random violence won't stop this thing - but mere police work and crossed fingers won't either. The folks who perpetrate these atrocities - and the governments who sponsor them (Iraq being a case in point) - need to be "wacked". You can't bargain with or negotiate with an Islamofascist - your only option is to kill or defeat him.

Re: Coincidence ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">General W,
You must be privy to information not shared by the the rest of the world. While Saddam was a murderer and all around bad guy there are absolutely no proof of he sponsoring any international "Islamofascist" terrorists. On the contrary, Saddam beeing a secular old fashioned dictator on a power trip, he himself was high on their target list .

The "whacking" of Iraq is probably the biggest boost ever to international terrorism, with the new destabilized Iraq providing plenty of recruits and ample training oportunities on live targets. And with more than enough funding available from among others our dear allied "friends" the Saudis, all the pieces for creating new hardcore Groups are available: Targets, Motivated Manpower pool (there are about 5 Million Iraqi who has been toppled from the top to the bottom of Iraqui society, many loosing friends and relatives in the process), Training and Money. Future for fighting terrorism looks bleak indeed thanks to GWB.

Re: Coincidence ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, if you give us their address, we'll just bomb that particular house. We've gotten kinda good at that the Last couple of years... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I find offensive your smirking about 10,000 to 13,000 murdered Iraqi civilians Last year.

Re: Coincidence ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I did not mean to offend, but consider this...

How many civilians have died in the liberation of Iraq

VS

How many Hussein and his psycho sons killed (Iraqi, Iranian, and Kuwaiti) in the Last 20-odd years.

Do the math.

Re: Coincidence ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">When Sadamm gased Kurds and Iranians, he was a "good guy", friend of Cheyney who supplied him chemicals. When Sadamm murdered shias, US army stayed 10 miles from Basra and did nothing. Just please don't tell this nonsense how you guys love Arabs !

Re: Coincidence ??
 

My original question is moot now. AQ released a tape claiming authorship and mentioned the timing as a deliberate 911 day anniversary http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

Re: Coincidence ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't consider the French, Germans and Russians (Hussein's chemical suppliers) as Cheney's friends...

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There I do fault the original Bush administration. We should have taken out the SOB in Gulf War I when we had the chance.

Final rant, then I bow out - I get frustrated at times when I see how people react to the US's use of force. Compare what the US is doing in Iraq and what Russia is doing in Chechnya, and tell me with a straight face that there's no difference in how the two sides treat civilians in a combat zone. Wars are a necessary evil in this life - that sixties stuff about international "peace, love and understanding" is bull****. There will always be human beings who want to kill and conquer other human beings - and the ONLY way to stop some of them is to "whack" them. That's a cold, hard fact of life, friend, and if you don't want to face up to it, I suggest you start brushing up on your Arabic...

EDIT - I'm not mad at you personally, just frustrated at your apparent idealism...

[ March 14, 2004, 11:23: Message edited by: General Woundwort ]

Re: Coincidence ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So kill or be killed huh? And how would that make us any better than the terrorists? We have no right to kill people simply because we suspect them of being terrorists. Of course I am not privy to all the information the gov't has, only what the news media shows, which we all know is biased one way or another. But lets face it: going in and killing some terrorists will not stop them. It simply enrages other people in those nations, and inspires more terrorism, not less.

But of course my viewpoint is simply that: mine. Terrorism is a problem with no real solution. No matter what you do about it, whether you act, or do not act, the repercussions are most often bad.

Sometimes I sure am glad I live in Canada, which isn't exactly a high target on the terrorist's list. (at least I hope its not)

Re: Coincidence ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, I typed that post too fast and was not clear in what I want to say :

Invading Iraq did not resurect all those killed before. The Last documented atrocity by Sadamm was 12 years ago. These was no need either to invade to stop Sadamm attacking others - no country, not even Kuwait ask US to invade, they all were against it ! So yes, sadamm killed many more twenty years before but that does not justify killing thousands now just to get him to jail. Sadamm was contained, had no WMD whtsoever and no contacts with AQ or other terrorists. The war was completely unneccesary and,IMHO, against US interests. It divertred attention from the real problem - AQ and made things much worse.

Re: Coincidence ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe I was being a little dramatic as to what we need to do. But I'm sure the intelligence agencies of not only America but Europe have a good idea of where these terrorists are. I'd rather see us use a few MOAB bombs in that no-man's land in Pakistan than see more American soldiers at risk. I know in this election year, Bush would love to have Bin Laden handed to him on a silver platter before the elections. I'd just not have to have so many American lives attached to that platter. I'd rather see a dead Bin Laden than more caskets with American flags draped over them. We're getting enough of them killed in Iraq as it is.

Re: Coincidence ??
 

I wonder if we will ever all just get along in life as friends and not enemies? Iraq should join the United States as the 51'st State.

Re: Coincidence ??
 

AT duck and cover now... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Coincidence ??
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I am well armed, I fear no religious fanatic! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Coincidence ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe I was being a little dramatic as to what we need to do. But I'm sure the intelligence agencies of not only America but Europe have a good idea of where these terrorists are. I'd rather see us use a few MOAB bombs in that no-man's land in Pakistan than see more American soldiers at risk. I know in this election year, Bush would love to have Bin Laden handed to him on a silver platter before the elections. I'd just not have to have so many American lives attached to that platter. I'd rather see a dead Bin Laden than more caskets with American flags draped over them. We're getting enough of them killed in Iraq as it is. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">These are not deserted regions Greg. There is several Million people living in those borderlands. Most are hard working people trying their best to make a decent living and who don't give a f. about international politics. You can be sure the people you want to get with your MOABs are the ones most well protected and the Last ones to go http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Coincidence ??
 

I am glad of the Spanish peoples vote. It will be interesting to see how the Polish react to this.

Re: Coincidence ??
 

Are the election results in Spain a victory for terrorists?

This question on CNN

That is just wrong.

I am rather shocked they would ask that question.

And I am rather shocked at the results.

If a free and elected democratic party is a victory for terrorist.... Bah. Some times I think that North America has no clue on what it is like to live in the rest of the world. And Somethimes i think that North America is very lucky for that ( Sorry Canada and USA. )

Re: Coincidence ??
 

Well australia is the one place without any terror strikes yet - i agree that the election result would have tilted in the socialists favour - only because of the timing.

The one point that was made with the spainish bombings was that it was 911 days after sept 11 2001 WTC bombings - that is the co incidence angel.

Re: Coincidence ??
 

I am not concerned with the actual results of the election in Spain regardless of how my own politics do or don't agree with the new government. It's their country and they are voicing their collective opinions as all democracies are entitled to do.

However I do have some concerns with the perception of the results. The polls leading up to the vote showed the incumbant party with a small, but measurable lead. Whether or not the bombing, or the apparent rush to condem the ETA for it had any effect on the results is impossible to truely know. But if the terrorists percieve it to have had an effect, it will likely give them encouragment to commit similerly timed acts in other countries.

I fear for the Polish people, and for ourselves in that regard.

But, no, I cannot agree with anyone that thinks the free and open exercise of a countries democratic rights is any sort of victory for the terrorists.

[ March 15, 2004, 23:11: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: Coincidence ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why would Iraq want to join the US? Look a little closer to home, have Canada join the US! We could call ourselves "Canamerican's"!!! We'd be the biggest country in the world!

(now there is a scary thought)

BTW, I don't think the US and Canada should join, just in case you were wondering.

Re: Coincidence ??
 

U could just call us americans

It is the term for everyone who lives in north america and south america

Re: Coincidence ??
 

forgot the http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Coincidence ??
 

We could all ratify Nafta as our Constitution and call ourselves Canamericanexicans. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Coincidence ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">as always, those who are willing live as friends.

Re: Coincidence ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe I was being a little dramatic as to what we need to do. But I'm sure the intelligence agencies of not only America but Europe have a good idea of where these terrorists are. I'd rather see us use a few MOAB bombs in that no-man's land in Pakistan than see more American soldiers at risk. I know in this election year, Bush would love to have Bin Laden handed to him on a silver platter before the elections. I'd just not have to have so many American lives attached to that platter. I'd rather see a dead Bin Laden than more caskets with American flags draped over them. We're getting enough of them killed in Iraq as it is. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">These are not deserted regions Greg. There is several Million people living in those borderlands. Most are hard working people trying their best to make a decent living and who don't give a f. about international politics. You can be sure the people you want to get with your MOABs are the ones most well protected and the Last ones to go http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Primitive, excuse my ignorance. All I've heard of the place comes from the news, mostly from talk radio, and from the way they describe it, that area is a haven for criminals, miscreants and terrorists. That's why I say we should bomb the place. But if there are innocent civilians living there, then maybe we can do some pinpoint precision bombing that would cause little collateral damage, once we get the information that is need for where Bin Laden and his cronies are hiding out at.