Imperialism Mod
 

Anouncing and inviting comments on my upcoming Imperialism Mod. This will be designed as a multiplayer only mod, where abusing the AI isnt taboo, its the name of the game.

The premise of the ImpMod is that it should be more profitable to maintain a colonial empire of client states and trading parteners, than it would be to conquer and govern worlds on your own. Hence, the main focus of the mod is to make it profitable to co-exist with Neutral Races.

Not only will various Neutrals be given production bonuses in the form of Characteristic Bonuses (instead of 100% across the board), but a variety of features will be combined to make trade and treaties more profitable than conquest. Assuming a high AI bonus, the following features will enable a savvy player to maximize income from client states:

- lowered cost for political savvy
- higher maximum setting for political savvy
- characteristic optimization for neutrals
- anger.txt tweaks to make neutrals more tolerant
- politics.txt tweaks to make neutrals more accepting of various treaties
- trade from treaties able to rise to 50%
- tarriff income from Protectorate raised to 200%
- tarriff income from Subjugation raised to 400%

Special thanks goes out to everyone on the #se4 IRC channel for their comments and suggestions.

Re: Imperialism Mod
 

Is this another vaporware mod, like the Grit Tech Mod, or a real mod, like Junkyard Wars? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif j/k

Re: Imperialism Mod
 

Eeeeexcellent. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

This is exactly what I had in mind the other day when I was lamenting the fact that you can't have more then 20 races. Imagine a game like this with 5-10 players and dozens of little AI races scattered about. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Imperialism Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I definitly bit off more than I could chew, with GritTech. The complete re-creation of the weapons and propulsion systems, scaled mounts for armor engines and everything, the new tech tree.. It all just got to be too much and died due to its own inirtia.

This mod is extremely simple. Aside from editing the AI files for each neutral (which involves mostly copy-paste operations) there isnt much to do. The settings.txt changes are done. And thats it, unless someone Posts some astounding suggestion that needs to be incorporated. I anticipate that the ImpMod can be functional by the end of the weekend. It would be done now except for the fact that I want different files for each of the 10 neutrals, instead of having lots of identical Boroba States.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Unfortuneatly, we are still limited to 20 players. 10 humans and 10 neutrals, or 5 humans and 15 neutrals is about the best we can do. That is a cool idea to imagine, though. Maybe in SE5.

Re: Imperialism Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't know much about how the ai decides when it will sign either of those treaties -- but if it is based on Player Score or something, then it seems like a pretty hefty bonus will be given to the players in the lead, maybe creating a runaway leader problem?

Re: Imperialism Mod
 

Um, don't Protectorate and Subjegation TAKE from your resources? As in 200% would leave them with negative resources?

Re: Imperialism Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe also greatly increase the cost of mining, farming, and refining aptitudes so they are out of the question for the player to raise them.

For political savvy, maybe reduce the cost up until the threshold, but then at the threshold, make the cost still somewhat reasonable (like 25 or 50pts). What this will do is (almost) guarantee that people will buy up to the threshold (making trade more attractive, like you stated), and then it will be a interesting decision to make if people want to go still higher.

Re: Imperialism Mod
 

200% would leave a normal empire with a deficit. But as an AI with a high bonus, they make 5x normal. What they give in trade and tariff reflects their pre-bonus output rather than their actual totals.

as for the runaway leader problem, the Neutrals will be made amicable enough that the first person to get to them should have a high chance of obtaining the treaty. I will run some tests to see how willing they are to switch over if someone else demands a similar exclusive treaty of them. that could be problematic, but even if protectorates were removed as a primary factor in the mod, it will still be more profitable to establish trade relationships than to conquer.

Re: Imperialism Mod
 

Spoon, that is what I have done. The computer with the tweaked file is not Online for me to copy and paste from, but I will paraphrase:

PS Max %: 200
min %: 0
% cost: 10
Threshold: 25
threshold cost (positive): 50
threshold cost (negative): 100

hence it is entirly possible to buy it down to nothing, and play the warmonger race.

edit: i am hesitant to make it prohibative to increase resource production rates, as I planned on using those to give the AI higher production values.

edit again: i am also contiplating changing the threshold to 50..

[ March 12, 2004, 21:19: Message edited by: Puke ]

Re: Imperialism Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think the negative threshold cost is too high... you could get like 8000 pts by dropping to zero -- a bit too much of incentive to go war-monger...

Neutrals should be able to garner enough points to purchase inflated aptitude costs by dropping their combat-related skills to the min. If that doesn't do it, maybe increase the negative cost of something that the player absolutely needs (like Combat Defense) and let all the neutrals drop it to zero.

And come to think of it, really only Mineral Aptitude cost should be inflated, since orgs and rads are usually ok to drop...

Re: Imperialism Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">SE4 just deducts the totals anyway, so it shouldn't cause a problem..careful, though- subjegated races can't accept treaties, but they can gift them (and accept them as gifts)

Re: Imperialism Mod
 

right. moving threshold to and neg cost both to 50 then. higher incentive for positive, lower for negative. still respectable numbers of points to be gained from zeroing it out.

Re: Imperialism Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">gifting can be disabled easily enough for the AI, at least making them give a gift or tribute to an enemy. they could be made to be willing to give gifts and tributes to a friendly race but not an enemy one, which should extend to any no-treaty races.

I believe that if you gift a subjugation treaty to some one, you will be on the paying end of it. of course, that could possibly break the AIs existing treaty, and allow it to be re-established with someone else. I will have to test.

Re: Imperialism Mod
 

Another idea, maybe get rid of troops? Capturing neutral worlds is much more appealing than blowing them up...

Also makes it trickier to get all those breathers, which further serves to reduce player base income...

Re: Imperialism Mod
 

I'd think that keeping troops in would be good. That way, you've still got the option to capture. A better idea IMO, would be to make it much harder to take a world. Say, increase militia hit points and number of militia per population.

Another idea. Is there a way to make specific Neutrals have something special, like a unique tech that they would be willing to "sell" or trade with an ally that would make it worth while? Perhaps Uber efficient cargo bays that are 5x as good as regular ones? Or even some sort of advanced armor/shield techs? Obviously, being an AI only tech, the trade off would have to be pretty good since once a play had it, they wouldn't be able to do any future upgrades. Just an idea.

Re: Imperialism Mod
 

the bonuses for the nuetrals could be culture bonuses.

Re: Imperialism Mod
 

If you gift a sub treaty you do get on the paying end. But that trick allows a sub race to esablish treaties with other empires- something it couldn't do without it.

Re: Imperialism Mod
 

I had thought about giving the AI culture bonuses or unique tech, but that creates an opportunity for a player to 'cheat' and take that culture or tech for themselves at game setup.

now, this isnt a big problem because its easy to tell if someone is cheating and kick them from the game after first contact. but it creates an opportunity for someone to 'misunderstand' how the game is setup, and the added complexity that Users would be facing just seems like an unclean design.

that said, if i was to use a hook like that, it would probably be in the form of unique technology. The idea would be that neutrals would produce spacestations that generate resources, research, and/or intel (thanks to the handy new patch) and you would purchase those stations as they are produced. You would want to keep in the good graces of the neutral so that they would not declare war or break treaty, and have that spacestation shot down - because its probably going to be orbiting their homeworld.

if the basic premise of the mod works and the above concept is not used, things will be alot simpler. I would rather keep this easy, and not edit technology files and design creation texts. that way, the ImpMod will be streamlined and easy to add in to any other mod that wants to take advantage of it. a couple settings changes, and new neutral AI files. Easy to add to your favorite existing mod.

It seems like the only problem remaining, is preventing subjugated neutrals from accepting a gift from enemies. And this is easily surmounted.

The AI can be made to not accept gifts or tributes above a certain anger level. this can be set so that they will never accept a gift or tribute. furthermore, they can be set to be almost infinitly unlikely to accept a trade from an enemy, and fairly likely to trade with a friend.

actually, in the case of trades, likelyness has nothing to do with it. They can be set to trade at outrageous (500:1 or so) ratios with enemies, and generous (9:10 or so) ratios with friends. that way if someone REALLY wants to spend an arm and a leg to undermine your treaty with a neutral, they can. it also creates an incentive to try and prohibit other empires from establishing contact with your pet neutral - especially if you plan on 'trading' half the planets in your empire to it, to take advantage of its increased output.

Re: Imperialism Mod
 

Version Beta-2 is up on PBW. Download it here:

http://seiv.pbw.cc/Download/filelib/953/Impmod.zip

sorry, i could not figure out how the new shrapnel file area works, so its not uploaded there.

Please check out the mod, and let me know what you think. I would like to run a beta-test game on PBW. Quick game with a small or midsize quadrant and low tech costs. I would like to observe how the AI behaves, so I would prefer not to actually play, and just log on as the various Neutrals each turn to check them out. Ideally, players would take time to send in comments and suggestions for changes.

Let me know if you are interested.

Re: Imperialism Mod
 

A fast game?
Sure, I'm interested.

Re: Imperialism Mod
 

no more takers for a game of economic conquest and abusive trade relationships? no one wants to simulate colonial imperialists or the WTO?

any general feedback on the current Version of the mod?

Re: Imperialism Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">as far as i know, it doesn't and we don't have a new one. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: Imperialism Mod
 

Well, I'm trying to start a beta test for this thing on PBW. Come check it out.

Puke's Imperialism Mod Beta Test
Status: Game open to new players

Game description
This is a Beta Test for Puke's Imperialism Mod (ImpMod). The significant changes in the mod are the high level of resource, research, and intel production that Neutral races are capable of, and the greatly increased profits available through trade (50%), protectorates (200%) and subjugated races (400%).

Profit by making treaties with Neutrals and leting them make resources, research, and intel for you! Manage client states instead of a homogenous empire. Protect your client states from enemy empires, the puppet neutrals of your rivals, and from each other.

This is a Beta Test game. I am still trying to make sure that the AI behaves properly. I would like to pay attention to things like AI happyness, AI anger levels, the williness of AI to make treaties, to keep treaties, if they switch sides or if they stay with their original treaty partner. How the AI handles multiple treaties, how difficult it is to establish a treaty with an AI later if you do not do it immediately, and so on.

It will also be important to take note of how the game plays out and what tactics are viable, if there are any tactics which are "unbeatable" or "unfair" and require adjustments to the mod in order to fix or balance. (for example, Communications Mimic is being removed).

A link to the most recent Version of the mod will be provided as a news item before the game starts, and any time there is an update. the mod runs on 1.91, and currently involves minor changes to the settings file, major changes to neutral AI files, and one edit to the Intel file.

Starting resources: 100000
Starting planets: 3
Home planet value: Good
Score display: allied
Technology level: Medium
Racial points: 2000
Quadrant type: Spiral
Quadrant size: Small
Event frequency: None
Event severity: N/A
Technology cost: Low
Victory conditions: when we are done
Maximum units: 20K
Maximum ships: 20K
Computer players: High (neutrals only)
Computer difficulty: High
Computer player bonus: High
Neutral empires: Yes!!!
Other game settings: Turns will be processed offline in case any adjustments to the MOD are required.

Re: Imperialism Mod
 

Hi Puke... I knew you liked Imperialism... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

A potential problem: I suppose a good tactic would be to destroy homeworlds of those neutral empires which have been subjugated by another player. This can be done without declaring war to the human player, so that (at least for the first turn) you won't have to fight his ships (I suppose every human player will place ships/units/whatever to defend his colonies). Since the AIs aren't very good at defending themselves, this could be exploited in some way (maybe).

Also, what about gifting your own planets or colony ships to your subjugated neutral empire? I think this is ok as far as game rules go, but it's somehow weird... you'd gain more resources by having a single homeworld (or maybe not even a homeworld) and gifting everything else to your neutral colonies...

Re: Imperialism Mod
 

I suppose then the controlling empire would have to defend the homeworlds of its subjugated races.

That sounds fine to me.

Re: Imperialism Mod
 

Defending someone else's planet isn't very easy, unless you declare war on any potential enemy...

Suppose you've subjugated a neutral and placed a large fleet on his homeworld. Should any other human-controlled empire attack the homeworld without declaring war to you, your fleet will be completely useless, at least for the first turn (but I don't expect the planet to survive for a turn).

So, to effectively protect it, you would have to declare war to any allies of yours approaching the planet (in other words, "don't enter systems leading to Zymarra, or I'll break our treaty"), but this is easier said than done... Especially in crowded quadrants, many players might have good reasons to keep fleets only a turn away from the homeworld you're trying to protect.

Re: Imperialism Mod
 

You could gift them ships and things. War by proxy. Like the cold war.

Re: Imperialism Mod
 

Application for PBW game put in...

Re: Imperialism Mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Um, dosen't the subjugated race LOSE the 400% they're giving to you, thus making their economy instantly collapse and all their ships die?

Re: Imperialism Mod
 

Glad you asked!

yes, they do! which is why you play with a high AI bonus, giving them 500% production rates. tarriff ammounts are only based on their normal (non-bonused) production rate, so they give you 400% and keep 100% for themselves. aint it grand?

Regarding giving planets to the AI, yep definitly possible, could be a very good tactic.

Regarding wars-by-proxy: A very valid tactic, this is what i think will make the game the most interesting. You will either have to declair war on people that send ships to harass your client state, gift ships or defense bases to your client state, or take a world (request gift, tribute, or trade) from the AI and build defenses on it before giving it back.