Small ships vs Big ships
 

Do you think its worth the buck to invest in a large number of Corvettes and Frigates?
Will they, pound by pound, be more effective than a few but larger ships?

I base my fleet on the Light Cruisers, but I wonder if I should go bigger or if going smaller may be smarter.

Right now I have 12 point-defense Destroyers, 30 attack LC, and 3 BC.

Should I start from this point on to build only the biggest hull or should I keep building the smaller ones? (as attack ships)

Re: Small ships vs Big ships
 

The large increase in damage from using light cruisers with large mounted weapons makes smaller ships unable to compete unless you can pour a lot more resources into producing small ships than your enemy can produce large ships. With the same tonnage used for weaponry, large mounted weapons do 50% more damage than normal weaponry. That is a large gap to overcome, one which the 10-20% extra defense bonus of the small hull does not make up for.

Also, it is not as drastic comparing heavy mounted weapons on battleships compared to large mounted weapons on battle cruisers, but the increase in damage is still quite significant.

[ March 22, 2004, 16:36: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Small ships vs Big ships
 

But wouldn't the increased number of attacks created by a greater number of ships overcome the increase damage done by the large ship's heavy mounts?

Re: Small ships vs Big ships
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Only if you spend much more time and resources building the smaller ships. The cost of engines and ship control and sensors for the smaller ships is the same, or nearly the same, per ship. This would make larger ships a good idea even without mounts (see Space Empires III).

There are some other minor advantages to smaller ships (e.g. defense modifier, lower build time, number of targets, number of firing sources), but these definitely don't overcome the advantages of larger ships, in most cases, in the unmodded game. Rare exceptions are when the to-hit bonuses temporarily hit the edge so the smaller ships become nearly unhittable, and when the enemy has a weapon you currently can't counter which can take out an entire ship in one attack, like an allegiance subverter or an engine-destroyer when you forgot to include supply storage.

Some mods restore some uses and effectiveness to smaller ships, though. See Proportions mod and AIC mod for example (and probably P&N and Adamant, I would guess - any mod with Quasi-Newtonian Propulsion will help at least somewhat).

PvK

Re: Small ships vs Big ships
 

Special weapons make it hard to defend smaller ships. Defending against boarding parties, ion dispersers, seekers, fighters, shield depleters, all compete for room with the weapons. A well defended small ship will not have enough fire power.


The larger ships have less overhead then an equal tonnage of smaller ships, because of the bridge (or Master Computer), engines.

Typical componants like Combat Sensors, ECM, Stealth Armor (defense bonus), Scattering Armor (defense bonus), fuel storage (engine damage reserve), Shields, Self Destruct, Security Stations, Solar Sail, and PD add important benifits.
The larger ships are more cost effective by spreading these benefits over a larger tonnage of weapons.

The mounts make the larger ships an even better deal by increasing the firepower per ton of weapons. More bang for the buck. More damage resistance for the buck.

Re: Small ships vs Big ships
 

Like all computer simulations, SE IV has a hard limit on the number of ships you can have in the game. In 'the real world' you could overwhelm any technologial or size advantage with sufficient numbers but in a game the 'ant swarm' strategy is limited by the limits of the computer program you are running. So while there are some advantages to many smaller ships -- such as more flexibility in deployment -- the fleet with larger ships will ultimately almost certainly win due to mounts and some other advantages of scale.

I hope that the use of 'real time' in SE V combat will allow some real advantages for smaller ships to be preserved, such as speed and maneuverability.

Re: Small ships vs Big ships
 

Good concepts in general. To be picky, though, in practice neither the ship limit nor the lack of real-time movement are actual reasons for small ships' inefficiency in SE4.

The limit of 20,000 ships per nation is rarely, if ever, reached, and it'd be even more unlikely to become a factor. That only matters in games where players chose a low limit on the number of ships (or perhaps a really enormous game).

The lack of advantages for smaller ships is an issue with the game settings. Mods such as Proportions demonstrate that SE4 can be set to represent advantages of smaller ships. And a real-time game can still easily not include appropriate advantages of small ships in the settings. StarFury gives some advantages to smaller ships (mainly, better turning rates), but still is simplified in several ways that give larger ships advantages that don't seem to have a basis in logic. Fortunately, both games are moddable. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

PvK

Re: Small ships vs Big ships
 

I guess I forgot to say wich mod I was using. I'm running Proportions 2.5.2

Should I invest on many small or a few large ships?

[ March 22, 2004, 20:40: Message edited by: Yef ]

Re: Small ships vs Big ships
 

Heh.

Probably a mix is best for most purposes. For example, ideally, the enemy might be trying and usually failing to swat your smaller ships, while your bigger ships pound them.

Smaller ships are much cheaper to maintain, and can be very difficult to hit, especially if the enemy only has big clumsy ships. The smallest (scout and escort class) ships usually can't hold strong enough weapons to effectively engage larger ships, but they can be used as raiders, nuisance ships, and support ships.

Frigates and destroyers can both be useful in fleets. They still lack the punch of larger ships, but can do meaningful damage, and are good platforms for PD, seekers. They can also serve well with regular weapons, giving the enemy the choice of either trying to hit them, or ignoring them and getting hit by them. They can distract a lot of enemy attention from your bigger ships. Their natural attack bonuses from agility mean they don't need as much ECM/sensor expense.

Bigger ships are still the most powerful, but in Proportions they cost more like what they're worth, or even more. Although they are more expensive, use lots of supplies to move, and are even more expensive if you try to make them fast, having the best and most powerful heavy ships can make the difference between victory and defeat in a large battle. The trick is deciding how big and how expensive you need to go to get an advantage, catching the enemy fleet with your superior ships, and making it all not so expensive you win one fight but lose several others.

There are also decisions to make about what level of components to use, and how much space to devote to protection verus weapons. For example, armor gets better and better at higher levels, but the cost goes up even more steeply. You may want to try large ships with cheap components, or small ships with expensive ones, in some cases. Unlike the unmodded game, armored structure makes a large difference in a ship's ability to absorb damage. A ship with 1/4 to 1/2 its mass in armored structure will tend to be able to take several times the amount of hits of a ship with just weapons.

Another approach is to have cheap and small ships on patrol during peace time, with large and expensive ships mothballed. Or, just keep a large resource reserve, plenty of shipyards, and build a new expensive fleet when a war breaks out. Then win the war before the reserves run out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

[ March 22, 2004, 21:24: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: Small ships vs Big ships
 

I haven't played enough proportions to help, sorry.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The new SJmod has a unique system for ship value...
The little ships get you way more bang for your construction buck, but the maintenance costs on all ships are about the same.
The 400kt "Frigates" are pretty good for quickly mustering up some cannon fodder, or 200kt "Escorts" if you have a lot of slower BSY.
With construction time rising proportional to size cubed, 800kt of 1000kt ships are probably the best you can hope for in your main lines.
However, if you have lots of time on your hands, the biggest ships are the best, since every ship costs about 1000 in maintenance (scaled to stock-minerals) no matter what size it is.

Re: Small ships vs Big ships
 

Thanks for the responses. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Another question, do you you think it may be worth it to go fighters instead of ships?

In the unmodded game, fighters were too powerful, IMHO, and in Proportions, despite doing a damage of only 4 per gun, I have taken on Heavy Base ships with 200 fighters. Talk about X-wing fighters and the Death Star. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I'm fighting the Dopplenganger, and for some reason the AI insists in sending unescorted HeavyBaseships against my fleet of 3 carriers, despite being defeated time and again.
It think it have to do with the building.txt.
Maybe the dopplenganger AI its not optimazed for Proportions?

Re: Small ships vs Big ships
 

I really feel that is is not a question of little ships v. big ships. Each ship size plays a role in any Empire. Combined arms are invauable and fleets that employ this tactic are hard to beat. I tried building LC's with drones and when that fleet went against a comparible sized fleet of BC's the LC fleet beat the BC's however nearly all the LC's had sustained damage in the battle but all survived. I also found that ES's make great police ships. It helps your happines a great deal to have 2 or more ships in orbit over a planet and ES make good guards in that respect. ES's and FR's also make good Kamikazi ships. And a great deal depends on how you set up your empire. All ship sizes fighters, drones, are useful. I am in a mature game right now (Last Man Standing) And The Fleet uses all sizes. Every Ship size plays a role.

Re: Small ships vs Big ships
 

PVK hit on my favorite mid-to-late-game usage of small ships; nuisance ships.

While your main battle fleets engage the larger enemy ships, send small recon fleets of smaller ships. Even if they just sit in an enemy system, they lower happiness and (hopefully) start a few riots, destroy a few unguarded transports or colonizers, etc; just annoy the heck out of the inner systems and keep 'em chasing YOU. See how quickly many will retreat to restore peace and order (and income!!!) to their monetary infrastructure.

Just my $.02

Re: Small ships vs Big ships
 

I totally forgot about the effect enemy ships have on a system! I've found that smaller ships are good missiliers, dishing out decent damage for their size to compensate for mounts. By using their speed, they can spread missile fire pretty effectively. The downside, of course, is they're more easily destroyed where a larger ship would only be damaged.

I usually have logistics and repair ships following main fleets, so I lean towards powerful larger ships that can multitask. Diverse forces are usually the best.

For me, anway. Guess it always depends on your style of play and the mod you're playing!

zen

Re: Small ships vs Big ships
 

Only thing I use small ships for later in the game is when I have to churn out a ship asap. Combat-wise, I find that a swarm of frigates/destroyer ship capture ships can sometimes decimate a much larger (tonnage-wise) enemy fleet.

Re: Small ships vs Big ships
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Erm... a few PDC V per ship, and you can chew up fighters like there is no tomorrow...

Re: Small ships vs Big ships
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's what DRONES are for. Nuisance ships, meet cruise missiles! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Small ships vs Big ships
 

Yes small ships can be good for boarding ships, and for blockading enemy planets, and generally forcing the enemy to send something larger after you, force them to build weapon platforms, drop a few mines here and there, etc.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I wouldn't use fighters instead of ships in Proportions, but would definitely use them in addition to ships. And, carriers are definitely useful ships to have, and might be used instead of some or perhaps all of the large capital ships you might build.

Things to consider are the cost of 200 fighters, and the cost of ships that can move 200 fighters from system to system. Also, consider that damage to fighters is permanent, while ships can be repaired.

Quote:

I'm fighting the Dopplenganger, and for some reason the AI insists in sending unescorted HeavyBaseships against my fleet of 3 carriers, despite being defeated time and again. It think it have to do with the building.txt. Maybe the dopplenganger AI its not optimazed for Proportions?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't think Doppelganger has a Proportions AI. The result will be rather inefficient, as you are seeing. It thinks it should build only the largest size ships, doesn't know how to design for QNP, etc. You might be able to graft in AI files from a Proportions AI that uses similar technologies, and have it suddenly figure a lot of things out.

PvK

Re: Small ships vs Big ships
 

I for one would like to have the smaller ships be more useful in later parts of the game. The AI ops for Dreadnoughts later in the game and does not buid lower cost ships.

Re: Small ships vs Big ships
 

An easy way to balance ship sizes in a mod is to keep the same engine:weapons:hull size ratio for all ships, i.e. QN propulsion while modifying mounts to provide the same damage/kT ratio at all sizes. Of course, the smaller ships will have their defense bonus due to size while the larger ships are more likely to provide that crippling blow. This works even better in a leaky armor/shield setup.