SEIV Only A Nitch Game
 

Why is SEIV such a nitch game after four years of success?

We all know Space Empires IV and have grown to love the game like no other over its four and half year run. Its success is evident by the number of new players we see here every day and with its victory over MOO3 and GalCiv, Space Empires IV has propelled itself into the top slot for 4x gaming.

Still even with this title SEIV is only a nitch game with a very very very small market share and small group of slowly growing fans.

Why is SEIV only a nitch game after four years of utter dominance in the 4x market? Well it can only be because it is such a nitch game that even with the great word of mouth by its fans, us, the growth of the game has is still stagnate.

What can be done to boost awaness of this great game is a valid question in my book. I guess the only things that can be done is to continue getting the word out and perhaps pester a game magazine or gaming site into doing a follow up on the success of this game.

SEIV is a nitch game that should not be one. It should be a main stream game by now because of all the great success it has enjoyed over the compition. In my book SEIV is one of the great 4x games ever made and even if no one else will acknowledge this, I know it in my heart.

So if you can email gaming sites, and game magazines about this game and continue to post here and in other forums about the wonders of SEIV.

Thanks for reading.

Re: SEIV Only A Nitch Game
 

Remember the answers to those threads you started with titles similar to "are people really THAT stupid?"

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

Re: SEIV Only A Nitch Game
 

Hey? Why are you so obsessed by increaing the marketshare of SE IV?? I can see the obvious good results for MM, BUT there are dark sides to succes. Why aren't you happy with the succes MM has with it's current titles? With succes (and a larger community) comes decadencs, longer waits, less fansupport and takeovers with nasty consequences.
I for one am quite happy with the fact that MM can release games and the small gaming community. I know it sounds like I don't want MM to become rich from their fabulous games, but that's not how I mean it.
Oh, I'm not trying to attack you. This is just my point of view.

[ March 24, 2004, 09:29: Message edited by: Timstone ]

Re: SEIV Only A Nitch Game
 

Good point Timstone. Very valid and very true.

I just like the game and would like to see it gain a larger market share. It amazes me that a one man game shop could make a better game than a large corp with years of development and big bucks behind it.

MOO3 was just horrible.
GalCiv is a great game but not as fun as SEIV and IT has far more market share than SEIV. I should head on over to the GalCiv forum and post a bit about the wonders of SEIV. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Naw, that would be rude and I would not do that. Well not in a direct way. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: SEIV Only A Nitch Game
 

Glad you agree with me. It's better to have on my side than to have as an opponent. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

It's just said that good games like MOO and Diablo take years and years to develop and even then they can turn out to be absolutely horrendous games (like MOO3, but certainly nor Diablo 2 (that game just took far tooooo long top develop)).

Now we're at it, can I ask something about SE V?
Have had word about the game? Things like Which engine they are going to use? If they haven't decided yet, I suggest the Black Sun engine from Nexus. That is an absolutely gorgeous game. But I do not know if it supports Turn Based action. Now I think of it, will it be Turn Based? I certainly hope so.

Oh and a funny little occurence yesterday. Ask a few gamers if they have ever heard of Turn Based games. 9 out of 10 will say they have never heard of it. Excelent games like Age of Wonder are an obscure and little known genre. Too bad, but maybe for the best. Why? See my first message in this thread or in the other thread Atrocities started (the one where Tim Brooks also responded).

Re: SEIV Only A Nitch Game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's simple AT, Market share is all about 'Visibility' as in seen and heard and not about finding something through obscure net searches or the occasional word-of-mouth.

Walk into any computer store, chances are you'll see a copy of Moo3 and GalCiv. Pick up a magazine and there is a good chace you'll see an ad for one of these. do a net search for '4X Games' and you will find about a dozen references to moo3/GalCiv for every 1 se4. and if you include other 4x results of the search, it's about a 20-25 to 1 ratio. (Something strange, of the links I found to se4, none were to MM's site and most were to 3rd party fan sites and a few to Shrapnel.)

I keep hearing,.. "Advertizing is expensive", "Retail doesn't pay enough" But these statements are skewered when compared to Net-only sales and marketing.

What is better,. Selling 15,000 copies and making $10-$15 profit per game or selling 25, 50, or 100 thousand copies at $5 profit per game? (what if the 'Less-profit' theory of retail is hogwash, a developer can easilly make the same $10-$15 per game profit as Online sales.)

My problem with the whole Net vs Retail sales thing is that I cannot for the life of me see why the two need to be mutually exclusive. Most Publishers who have Games in the retail outlets also have the ability to order their products Online.

Even if Shrapnel took just one of their games an made it available through retial, they would see a greater influx of traffic at their site. Heck they could even insert ads in their 'retail-game' and promote their 'Other' games through the sales of one. From what I heard in Tim's post, it would cost about the same to launch a game through retail as it would to place an ad in a gamming magazine. Anyone want to bet which $15,000 investment would gain the widest exposure?

One more thing, I really HATE people that think Making-less is the same as loosing. It is so not true. Sure $5 proffit is less than say $15 profit, but that's not 'Loosing money' It's just making less, but wait, if just one game is a 'Hit' in the retail market (100,000+ copies sold) then would 'they' still say they are loosing money?


anyway, nuf said. Grrrrr

[ March 24, 2004, 11:03: Message edited by: David E. Gervais ]

Re: SEIV Only A Nitch Game
 

ALL THAT ARE LIE !!!
MOO3 WAS A GREAT GAME !

err...I mean it was a great PBW game dedicated to refugees from *****BEEEPP****.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: SEIV Only A Nitch Game
 

Hey, if we can continue to support Aaron financially to make great games, then I have no problem with being part of a niche group without all the craziness associated with more popular games. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: SEIV Only A Nitch Game
 

Keep in mind this game was not buyable in a normal shop like MoO 3 und GalCiv was. In addition this game is going warez since the release, i remember it was downloaded thousands of times through networks like sharereactor. And it didnt even had ONE copy protection.

Re: SEIV Only A Nitch Game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's a niche game because turn-based strategy titles are a niche market. There just aren't enough people out there right now that are willing to play this kind of game. Think about how much time you have to invest to just learn the rules for SE4.

Now, being in a niche market doesn't mean the game is bad (it's in my top ten!), but it does mean you have a limited audience, and a very tight budget. MOO3 tried (albeit unsuccessfully) to make a game that appealed to the less hard-core by reducing the micromanagement you normally find in a 4x game.

It may well be impossible at this point in time to make a good 4x game that has mass-market appeal. Which is why I hope SE5 is more of an evolution of SE4, rather than a drastic change to the formula...

Re: SEIV Only A Nitch Game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's a niche game because turn-based strategy titles are a niche market. There just aren't enough people out there right now that are willing to play this kind of game. Think about how much time you have to invest to just learn the rules for SE4.

Now, being in a niche market doesn't mean the game is bad (it's in my top ten!), but it does mean you have a limited audience, and a very tight budget. MOO3 tried (albeit unsuccessfully) to make a game that appealed to the less hard-core by reducing the micromanagement you normally find in a 4x game.

It may well be impossible at this point in time to make a good 4x game that has mass-market appeal. Which is why I hope SE5 is more of an evolution of SE4, rather than a drastic change to the formula... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Indeed, I sincerely hope it doesn't go the real-time route...

Paul

Re: SEIV Only A Nitch Game
 

I wonder if sending game shops an SEIV poster would work. Ask them to display it for a copy of the game.

Who knows maybe that would work. For every 10 copies sold through that store give the store a free copy of the game as an incentive.

When I was in the Firearms business there were many incentive programs like this out. Sell our product and we will give you discounts and even free merchandise. Of course you had to sell a lot of stuff and buy a lot to get the discounts, but at the end of the year it was well worth it.

(Mostly appearl, accessories, and such.)

I would love to walk into EB Software and see a SEIV poster by David Gervais hanging on the wall with a coupon to order Space Empires IV through Shrapnel with free shipping.

They use the coupon which tells which store the game was ordered through so the store gets credit.

After say 10 or even 20 coupons are used from the same store to buy SEIV, send the store a free game to sell. Offer them a 10% discount on the purchase of 10 or more games from Shrapnel.

Hell if you think about this it could work for all of shrapnels games.

Just a thought though. Remember it takes money to make money and Shrapnel can wright off all this as marketing on there taxes and gain a huge tax break.

But the bonus would be that the games become more visable.

Re: SEIV Only A Nitch Game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which matters not a whit because copy protection is easily broken. As of right now all it does is inconvience the end user, many of whom go to sites to find cracks for their legitimately bought games.

Some of them have no option; protection can render a game unplayable. And of course since these cracks are out there the games are still pirated. SE Starfury has a CD check for example, but I play it and have not had the CD in my drive since install.

Re: SEIV Only A Nitch Game
 

As I recall, the CD check was dropped in the latest SF patch.

Re: SEIV Only A Nitch Game
 

What killed Tribes 2 was the crappy way they had there patch system designed to operate. The other thing that killed tribes 2 was that there copy protection actually worked and many hackers and pirates could not play. Ohhh to bad. By the time the hacks came out, the game had lost its novelity.

Half-life = Most pirated game ever made.

I favor copy protection, smart copy protection.

Re: SEIV Only A Nitch Game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Apparently so. Doesn't change the point, though. (I was doing the same with 1.00 and 1.08)

Re: SEIV Only A Nitch Game
 

Copy protection should be a component to any game - nullifies pirate activity. In terms of SE5 adn SE4 i do my best to promote it on different forums i visit - hoping it sells a few games.

Re: SEIV Only A Nitch Game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As I just got through pointing out..no, it doesn't. There is not a game on my hard drive or in my collection that hasn't been cracked.

Re: SEIV Only A Nitch Game
 

Copy protection actually increases piracy to some degree, as it creates an artificial challenge to break the protection...

Every copy protection scheme ever devised has been broken. Only with company-owned multiplayer servers can CD keys actually have any chance of keeping pirates off of the servers. But the game can still be pirated, and will be. Just not for use on official servers.

[ March 25, 2004, 02:23: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: SEIV Only A Nitch Game
 

We use copy protection here at work for some of the programs I do that are for use overseas. I am not saying it can not be broken, but it seems very good. The catch... It costs an extra $10 per license to protect the code, plus all the unlock trouble and relicensing when the customers computer changes processors, harddrives or other information the lock code is attached to.

Re: SEIV Only A Nitch Game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which matters not a whit because copy protection is easily broken. As of right now all it does is inconvience the end user, many of whom go to sites to find cracks for their legitimately bought games.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Uhm, dude at your post count i see you know when SE4 was released.
To help you, this game was released YEARS ago.
YEARS ago cracks were available, but more rarely then today.
See, today you have things like xxxxxx.com, xxxxx.de, xxxxxxxx.com, its just that cracks are available EVERYWHERE and everyone can get up-do-date cracks without being in the scene.
At the time SE 4 was released cracks were not that "well" known and available to each idiot.
Given a better copy protection i think SE4 could have sold more copies. Then again i dont know how much it costs to licence a cd check or whatever.
In addition games like SE4 are less known, and so cracks wont be made as fast because there wont be as many requests, thats how the scene works.

So it matters.

[ May 14, 2004, 17:10: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: SEIV Only A Nitch Game
 

No, there have never been any cracks released for SE4, as there is nothing to crack. Pirates can just host a direct ISO of the CD, and it will work flawlessly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Licensing the better CD protection algorithms (which all get cracked anyways) is very expensive, so it is not very practical for MM to do...

[ March 25, 2004, 17:03: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: SEIV Only A Nitch Game
 

i agree with fryon copy protection is a waste of time and effort. Reward those who purchase the game... and keep that useless crap out of the game.

P.S. Proove to me that the warez Version of SE2,SE3,SE4 hurt SE and shrapnel. Also remember that a potential sale does not actually mean a lost sale and lost revenue.
And from what I can see each game has been more sucessful than the previous one.

Re: SEIV Only A Nitch Game
 

In the words of Tesco:
Bring us more SE!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: SEIV Only A Nitch Game
 

I don't think that most serious pirates (those that actively seek pirated games) would be frequent buyers of any game to start. That's why it's a stretch to say that SE:IV's sales would be higher. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

*begin not-so-subliminal message to pirates

Of course, those that have pirated SE:IV and played it for any extent have all since felt (or starting to feel) very, very, guilty for having done so and have bought (will purchase) legimate copies. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

*end not-so-subliminal message to pirates

[ March 25, 2004, 19:53: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

Re: SEIV Only A Nitch Game
 

I'll admit, back in my Commodore 64 and Amiga 2000 days, most of the games I had were cracked. Especially when I had my C-64, I just didn't have the money to buy games. Those were lean times. So I got my games where I could get them. But since I've had my pc, I don't even know where to go to get a cracked game. Earlier, I knew people or was involved in a club. Now, I'm a lone wolf, and don't know anybody who pirates games. NOt that I want to. I got more money than I had in my early computer days, so I buy the games I want. I may wait for them to go down in price, though, as I still find it hard to lay down $50 for a game all the time. And to tell you the truth, most games coming out I really don't care for, or are just have too high of a requirements to run them.

Re: SEIV Only A Nitch Game
 

Some reasons why I believe SE4 is a niche game and will remain so for the near future:

1) Turn based warfare is a smaller gaming community that continually attracts fewer new gamers compared to other genres
2) Turn based warfare generally uses stagnate 2D graphics vs 3D
3) Its a popular genre with an older demographic (yep, that includes me now...dammit) that was weened on Avalon Hill, early computer games, etc
4) In reference to above three, younger new gamer demographics enjoy faster paced, eyeball-popping, immediate gratification games - generally -(at least my young nephews fit this profile)
5) Often ultimate challenge is playing againts other people and that requires a LAN and/or Web connection AND the knowledge to make this happen
6) Also in reference to #5, FINDING numerous/quality/consistent players
7) Tend to have thicker manuals and/or at least REQUIRE them to be read to play effectively
8) The Retail/popular advertisement argument
9) Lack of developer support - NOT A PROBLEM HERE - but has been elsewhere
10) Steeper learning curves/more TO learn or manage

My two pennies

Re: SEIV Only A Nitch Game
 

Well, I love this game, and I'm in the younger demographic (16 years old!!) Haha a living contradiction to #4!!

Re: SEIV Only A Nitch Game
 

I was weaned on SE3. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Talk about non-flashiness... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif