When will SEIV be playable?
 

I'm still waiting for SG/MM to get this game to the point where it's worth taking the time to play.

As near as I can tell the computer players are still badly broken. The mods that some of the players have made are nice, but don't the SG/MM people think that perhaps they should put some effort into packaging this stuff up and bundling it into one patch that we can down load to get a decent game going?

I've played every one of these kinds of games that's been made, and I'm happy to pay for this one, but I'm not willing to root around to half a dozen different places to put together a few computer players that work, and then try to keep up with the patches and updates for them. I spent a year working on the AI for a computer game, and I'm really not very interested in tweaking on this one on my own time. That's why I payed for it.

SG/MM, can you please try to get this coordinated?

Thanks,

Ben Polk

Re: When will SEIV be playable?
 

Well, I second that the AI is still not up to the standard where it would present a real challenge. Offensives are not followed through, targets are ill-identified and you can still kill the AI players one ship at a time. The AIs do not use the design options available to them (anybody seen them use Phased Polaron Beams ?). In tactical, they still use stupid formations.

Nevertheless, 1.19 was big improvement (though on a relatively low level). Now I wonder, what will be technically implementable and what not. Ben, as you expressed yourself rather forcefully, do you as an AI programmer think that SE4 is just too complex to have a decent non-cheating (or little-cheating) AI, as it has been stated on this board before ?

Re: When will SEIV be playable?
 

I will gladly give the EA to MM (even with different name as I don't think they can use the Bab5 name). And I'm willing to create some more AI races. I'm here at the board, all I need is a hint from MM/SG.
I'm not willing to mod the default AIs when I can't be sure MM is overriding the races with the next patch.

Re: When will SEIV be playable?
 

Try play SPACE EMPIRES IV (SE4) hotseat. I just did this this Last weekend and it was a bLast. The game ran perfectly on a large map with lots of AI players and two humans. I mean, there is no way any AI is ever going to replace a human opponant and that is where SE4 really shines.

Since most of the posters here know how hard it is to get a good AI opponant, who does not cheat, in any gaming environment -- I really don't understand the tone of the posters.

What is really needed is the patch which provides SE4 with tcp/ip play.

Re: When will SEIV be playable?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jowe01:
Ben, as you expressed yourself rather forcefully, do you as an AI programmer think that SE4 is just too complex to have a decent non-cheating (or little-cheating) AI, as it has been stated on this board before ?[/b]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They've put a lot of work into getting the AI as far as it is, and to make it controlable through the data files. (Very good design on their part btw.)

My opinion is that it just needs more bug fixing, tuning, and polishing. If some more of this work is done I think the AI can be as good as in most any strategy game.

It would be nice to see the publisher (SG) put some effort into coordinating the efforts that some of the people here are putting in to this. It is hard for MM to deal with this kind of stuff and work on the actual bug fixes too.

The number of people that want to actually develop and tweak on the AI files is tiny. The number of people that would find these very useful is huge (being about as big as the number of people playing the game.)

Ben Polk

Re: When will SEIV be playable?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sogard:
Try play SPACE EMPIRES IV (SE4) hotseat.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To each their own, but I will never play SE4 hotseat or in any other multiplayer form. I think the number of people that will play a 20+ hour strategy game at all is a small fraction of the people that will play single player.

That's not to say they shouldn't support it, or that people that enjoy MP shouldn't play that way. Just that it isn't a substitute for the single player game.

Ben Polk

Re: When will SEIV be playable?
 

well...mm said they are doing the TCP IP

i dont mind playing myself in single player but only to get better grip of game before playing others..my point in anygame is to find those few dedicated players..3-4 in medium universe..

i never would want to play an AI forever..there is not the technology to
make an AI react with human intellect yet..but the game will be used as Interface between humans to duke it out..now this game hs that potential. so once they bring out the TCP IP..ill sit down play 5-8 hours on a weekend and save game..and meet back up with others and play it on..till finished...

its a great game...but once the TCP IP is up and working...im sure there will be many others who like a good long game and play it out.



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Waves his Red flag

Socialist

Re: When will SEIV be playable?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Socialist:
i dont mind playing myself in single player but only to get better grip of game before playing others..my point in anygame is to find those few dedicated players..3-4 in medium universe..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

man, you tell em, all those single players out there must be anti-Socialists http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/tongue.gif . sorry. had to, please dont ban me from the board. no, really.

I agree totally, I play single player to test out stratigies, MP is where the challenge is at, no matter what game you are playing. SP is good for quickie games, and role playing games, but thats about all anymore. man, i used to play Alpha Centauri for 8-12 hours straight on the TCP/IP marathon. it would be nice to be able to port the same saved game between hotseat, PBEM, and tcp/ip. I started a hotseat game and it would be nice to finish it over email. and I would sure like to be able to port my current PBEM game to IP when its available (and no jokes about email really being over IP).

Re: When will SEIV be playable?
 

I Think that SEIV is a very good game. I agree that the AI need work. But take it from a programmer writing even a dumb AI take a lot of man hours. And if when you got to the point where it moves with some rhyme and reason it is easy to fool it.

But on anothor note I am been playing it and there are two things about the game that keep me hooked

First there is the game itself. Outsmarting the AI is only part of it. Internaly maninging and expanding my empire is a bLast.

Second SEIV is easy to modify. You can spend a lot of time just making new compnets and races.

So to those of you who don't have it yet, go get it. It is a bLast. Even if MM doesn't making anymore changes it will still be fun.

Re: When will SEIV be playable?
 

You know, I have to disagree with you here. I think SE IV, espeically with Mesphisto's mod, is quite playable. In fact, I am in a game right now where the AI is kicking my tail all over the place.

MM has said that SEIV is an ongoing project that they will stay with and improve as time goes on. They will, and they have made some awsome improvements to the game since its release.

No to offend you benp, but if you dislike the game, might I suggest Reach For The Stars as an alternative to SEIV. After playing that game for a day or so, you will love SEIV.

Re: When will SEIV be playable?
 

We can expect that the AI will be getting better. Aaron is committed to it (along with a dozen other things, and BTW, hes the only programmer, and its a heck of a lot of work to make a good AI)

Re: When will SEIV be playable?
 

Well the mods these fine put out are just that mods (even though they are great).

We are putting all of our energy into improving the game without modifications (ie our own game patches).

I wish we were a larger shop and could accomadate your request but just taking care of the odds and ends of business takes up most of our days (and in my case my part time nights http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif).

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Sarge is coming...

Richard Arnesen
Director of Covert Ops
Shrapnel Games
http://www.shrapnelgames.com

Re: When will SEIV be playable?
 

benp: The game is playable already. Is it the best it will ever be? No, and thats the beauty of it. Look at all the other game companies out there that offer little to no support after they release it. MM supported SEIII a *long* time after its release, and from whats been said, they fully intend to support this one in the same manner. I knew the game wasn't complete when I bought it, but its playable, and a hell of alot more stable then some of the other games I've bought these past few months. I bought it in full faith that it was a work in progress and it would be continue to be supported. I'm also sure that features and cool new things will be added periodically, based on player requests and feedback. If you wanted a game that might only recieve a few patches, but never anything significant added, I hate to break it to you, but you bought the wrong game. As for me, I'm happy with it.

Re: When will SEIV be playable?
 

hotseat and mp.......

All the games that my friends ever play are quake and mech warrior, they think I'm playing with a spreadsheet ever since I got SE4.

Personally all the time I can find to play is 11pm ~ 2am, after I get home and before bed.. guess would be nice if my gf likes SE4, but she doesn't.

for MP I think real time is still the way to go, it really sucks to wait for ur friend to play out their turns... I'm waiting for cossack: european war to come out for some major MP, SE4 will stay solo for me.

Re: When will SEIV be playable?
 

Sorry guys, but I think you just don't get Benp right. He isn't complaining about the under laying AI AFAIK. He is complaining that the AI scripts are not as good as they could. And that’s right. The AI scripts have obviously not been modified since month. The AI isn't using ECM/ECCM due to a error in design AND spelling. It will not build atmospheric converters. It won’ research planet utilisation and so on.
That's the "secret" behind the EA. I made the AI use what's out there and I think this very much improves the game. I did not modify anything except making a new race (a point Richardson did not notice, as it seems). The under laying AI is NOT the problem, the scripts what to use are the problem!
To do a good AI script is a very hard and long process with a lot of play testing even for one race. MM just don't has the time to squish bugs AND do this kind of scripting. I will continue to create and improve races for SE4 but I can see why Benp is frustrated. It’s just frustrating to search the whole map for the new races.

Re: When will SEIV be playable?
 

ehehe i wont ban you Comrade :P

PUke..you got it right....(barf..har har) eheh

i am happy with the game..and when TCP IP comes out...look me up..i dont mind huge long games..I got a lot of time at home watching my daughter..it will give me pleasure to take on your Capitalistic empire and bring it into the Commune's fold...hehehe


the game is great by the way...and HUMAN to HUMAN is always the point...not to fun beating up a computer ..cant feel his agony as i crush his counter revolutionaries.heheeh



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Waves his Red flag

Socialist

Re: When will SEIV be playable?
 

Man, to think that only one guy is doing all the programing for this game is as amazing as finding new life in the galaxy. That really takes a lot of talent to do, and I am amazed that he does it with such skill.

The AI problem is one that can be tweaked, corrected, and overcome in time. I have confedance in MM and in all you moders out there. Mephistos's Mod made a great addition to the game, and I love it.

(Hum, do you live in CA Mephisto? Perhaps MM could use another programer? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Hint Hint)



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"We've made too many compromises already, too many retreats! They invade our space and we fall back -- they assimilate entire worlds and we fall back! Not again! The line must be drawn here -- this far, no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done!" -- Patric Stewart as Captain Picard

Re: When will SEIV be playable?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Richard:

We are putting all of our energy into improving the game without modifications (ie our own game patches).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is anyone at SG or MM working on the AI scripts? It doesn't seem like it except in the most cursory way.

My frustration is that you don't seem to realize how badly broken this is. The game is sitting on my shelf until you produce a patch with some races that work as well as Mephesto's. I have a feeling that MM is sneaking new features in instead of cleaning this up. (Like TCP/IP...)

It's been over a month since this game shipped, and the same stupid typos are still there in these scripts, to the point where some third party can come in and create a much better computer player then you have. Does that seem right to you?

I'm glad others are enjoying SEIV as is, but I've played about 10 different "conquor the galaxy" games in the past 10 years (including SE III), and unless one has AI that acts semi-resonably it's not worth playing. (For me.)

Ben Polk

Re: When will SEIV be playable?
 

Sorry, I live in germany. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
But I already offered my help.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atrocities:
Hum, do you live in CA Mephisto? Perhaps MM could use another programer? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Hint Hint
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Re: When will SEIV be playable?
 

Actually Ben it has more to do with the size of Aaron's team.

The other problem is Aaron is used to working on his games as a long term project much like Norm Koger and Gary Grigsby did for their games in years past.

I can tell you this though drop him an email with your specific concerns, he is very open to discussion.

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Sarge is coming...

Richard Arnesen
Director of Covert Ops
Shrapnel Games
http://www.shrapnelgames.com

Re: When will SEIV be playable?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The other problem is Aaron is used to working on his games as a long term project much like Norm Koger and Gary Grigsby did for their games in years past.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't see this as a problem, it's one of the main reasons I bought SE3 and why I was so happy to see SE4 appear. I sincerely wish that more companies treated their products with as much care as Aaron does his. Starcraft is the game it is today because Blizzard was patching it for a year and a half while taking advice from the best players in the world. Aaron does the same and that's exactly why as a lone programmer he can put out such a high-calibre product. He listens, he works hard, and he cares enough to not drop the product and rush off after every new idea that comes along. He'll stay with us as long as we stay with him. You'll never convince me that this is a problem.

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Compete in the Space Empires IV World Championship at www.twingalaxies.com.

Re: When will SEIV be playable?
 

Ben,

Since you have examined the AI scripts so well why not send a listing of them to Aaron so that he can fix them for the next patch? I would separate them into "typos" and suggestions so that the typos can be fixed and the rest looked at.


P.S I still have AI's kicking me with high difficulty and High bonus.


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Seawolf on the prowl