Russia new wonder weapon?
 

I just caught the tail end of a report on CNN regarding Russia's new wonder weapon or something.
Any body catch that report or know of any links, more or less just curious on what it was?

Thanks

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

"Iscander-E"? "Coala"? Where are a lot of new "wonder weapon" now in Russia. This is marketing mostly believe me.

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

They probably keep their real wonder weapons totally secret.

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

"But of course, the whole point of the Doomsday Machine is lost... if you keep it a secret! Why didn't you tell the world, eh!?!?" - Dr. Strangelove

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

Something I read on Fark was that Pravda was mentioning how the Russians are developing a new missile system that can evade the current US missile defense system.

This thread will soon degrade into a flamewar, so I'll leave you all with that -- go to Fark and Pravda.ru

I gotta go now, too many wisecracks are flooding my brain at once. must. rest. no. more. comments.

Remember Tnarg, "[OT]" is everyone's friend.

"I did not say this, I was not here"

[ March 30, 2004, 14:20: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Who are you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Huh?

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">SOunds like a new line in soft drinks to me.

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm. Someone might want to send them a memo: The Cold War has been over for 10 years now. Sorry, you lost.

Maybe they should be looking for a wonder weapon that will let them find religious extremists in Chechnya instead, the US is Russia ally now....

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">SOunds like a new line in soft drinks to me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually these are names of "groundbreaking", "ultimate", "with no analogues in NATO" and so on weapon systems, appeared in our press recently. Miserable attempts to assure citizens that our army has something to oppose to NATO or China.

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

Pravda (News) had devolved into the Russian Version of the National Enquirer. I wouldn' trust that rag or website news. The other Russian news outlet I think is called TASS. I think that translates into "Truth"

The russians use to say there is no news in "Truth"
And no truth in "News".

Duty now for the future comrade!

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

Here are our options. If the Russians or any other country with nuke and ICBM technology invents a way to avoid our defense systems, we HIT THEM NOW AND WE HIT THEM HARD!

The only thing keeping us alive is our ability to dish out severe punishement while blocking most of theirs. Once that is gone, it is open season on the USA.

This is very very bad mojo for us.

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So what you are saying is that Russia should nuke the USA now before they develop the Star wars defence system?? Becourse when the US gets the ICBM defence system it will be open season on Russia??
Scary!!!

I don't think the Russians want a nuclear war anymore than the US, so even if they have a defence against ICBM'S they wouldn't think of attacking the US.

[ March 31, 2004, 09:19: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

Come on guys, grow up! This not the Cold War anymore.

*puches sarcastic speech-button*
Besides we already know America is the best country in the world with the best army in the world.
And we all know you can't win guerilla battles; Vietnam anyone?
*Pushes sarcastic speech-button agian*

I hope I haven't stepped on too many toes... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Edit: typo's!

[ March 31, 2004, 09:42: Message edited by: Timstone ]

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

*Never take me seriously*

F***** dial up!

[ March 31, 2004, 09:50: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And those nifty orbital lasers Bush wants up in the sky?
Hahaha... the Star Wars programs was one of the biggest defence mistakes of all time. Man the huge amount of money that program gobbled. Unbelievable.

Edit: Hey! I quoted a different post from Atrocities! Ah well, you get it.

[ March 31, 2004, 09:53: Message edited by: Timstone ]

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

Nice write Yef. Looking forward to your next instalment.

And please send a copy to gwbush@usa.com (gotta be a com address http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ). Sure would help if he understood the difference.

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

Hahaha... LOL!

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah right. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Politicians never understand wars. They are quick to start it when they shouldn't, or quick to avoid it when they should fight it, (Chamberlain anyone? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ) but they rarely get it right.

Look at the Last Iraki War. All those stupid a'holes in the govt where expecting the Irakis to receive the US army with flowers, while the military was screaming for more troops and more planes. I've heard rumors from my pals that Rummy wasn't even expecting a resistance.
The Secretary of Defense its nothing more than a hawkish politician that can't see around the corner, and then the military leadership can't speak up because well, they can't speak up. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Let's just say that Iraki Freedom went better than the military expected, worst than the politicians dreamed.

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

The new Star Wars plan was only for intercepting 150 missles. Not the big grandiose scheme that Ronald RayGun had planned. This doesn't include the "Theatre Ballistic Missle Defence" that involves upgraded Aegis Cruisers and that 747 with the big laser in back that shoots through a turret in the nose. Son of Star Wars was only suppose to protect us (and hopefully friends) against Rogue States or China .
If Russia wants to develope a missle that zigs and zags then go ahead. If Russia wants to develope a hypersonic cruise missle then maybe a hypersonic SAM would counter that. Don't worry I don't think Russia is our enemy anymore. It's that N. Korean Don King impersonator your gotta look out for.

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

Yef, would you elaborate on your assertion that "Any measure you take to win the population over in this case will inevitable backfire."?

Do you mean that there may be some fanatics whose minds cannot be changed, and who may not rely as much on popular support as guerrillas?

Seems to me though that popular support and changing the minds of people is still critical. As long as one government is perceived by some group of people as hate-worthy, it will continue to inspire more people to engage in acts against it.

So while some people who are already dedicated to violence may have to be killed, populations have to be swayed in order to prevent an endless regeneration of opponents.

No?

PvK

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, the problem with the fanatics its not only that they cannot be won over, but that they always manage to radicalize a good chunk of the civilian population. The precense of terrorist tactics in a war tells you that certain line have been crossed, and that line cannot be crossed without support of sizable segment of the population, which in time tells you that a deep rift have occurred within such population that now sees the ones that are not with them as collaborating with the enemy, and thus fair game for terrorist tactics.

In short, guerrillas wants to "save" the population and the country, whether this "saving" its wanted or not (Mao Tse-tung, Che Guevara), while terrorists wants to "save" only a segment of that population (IRA, ETA). This means that the critical mass necessary for a terrorist war to be "succesful" its lower than for a guerrilla war, thus making a guerrilla war easier to win for the counter-guerrilla forces.

But in the end every conflict has its owns characteristics which tend to modify how the war its played out, with the most important modifiers being population density, etnic make out, religion(s), terrain, borders, and even transportation network, which in time define the tactics that would be used by the insurgents.

In the case of Irak, for example, the resistance its using a mix of tactics that goes from full blown guerrilla ambushes, through drive-by-shootings and drive-by-mortaring, to pure terror tactics like car-bombs and suicide bombers.
This mix of tactics force a mix of counter-tactics, which includes the search for terrorists in civilian houses, check points, restrictions on civilian freedom of movement, and so on.

All these have the effect of annuling any progress you may have achieved by investing on the local population's well being, because yes, you gave them food, but then you stop them at a check point and search them out (which is a great offense for an Arab), and then you may even have to break into their houses acting on field intelligence that some terrorist may be hiding in there.
Its a proven fact in counter-terrorist warfare that it takes only one action that can be interpreted as offensive to render void a hundred previous good actions.

In Irak, the civilian population its being used as camouflage by the resistance. They attack the US forces in the middle of populated areas, provoking inevitable collateral damage from return fire, and this in turn provokes hate from the population.

Its almost impossible to convince the population that the resistance its the one responsible for their hardships. When the civilians are under the stress of war, they will always see the side manning the check point as the one responsible for the existance of it.

There is also the fact that the resistance comes directly from the local population, which brings family ties into the equation, and even the foreign fighters that are in the resistance are closer to the locals, for being Arabs and muslims, than the US troops.

Add to that years of anti-American propaganda, zillions of conspiracy theories that are taken for facts, and a harsh reality that doesn't seem to get any better, and you have the recipe for a long drawn conflict with no end in sight.

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

Timstone. I think I disagree with the cold war statement.

Well we will see over the next 20 years.....

Might not be the cold war again as it was then

But the economic conflict is heating up again.

Just this time Europe is in on it on their own side.

And I can see Russia and Europe going parallel and supporting each other on some issues....

Where this leaves England. I do not know.

But if they were smart they would pick up the island and move it a little more towards newfoundland if they keep following their current path. Tough decisions for that nation to make. Europe or USA.

And do not forget the Indian - Chinese economic influences.

What will Japan do ?

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

fear! panic! be affraid!

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/...International/

I would not put alot of stock in it, tho. I would not put alot of stock in our missile defense program, either. and even though im an imperialist warmongering dog, i wouldnt pay much heed to At's idea about promptly blowing up any potential threats to the good old empire.

I mean, we're the kings of blowing stuff up. better than anybody in history, as a co-worker of mine is fond of pointing out. if we could solve the worlds problems - or even our problems - by blowing stuff up, there wouldnt be any problems left that needed solving.

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not really. A guerrilla war can be won. The ones that can't be won that easily are the terrorist wars. Since modern guerrilla warfare have evolved into hybrid Terror-Guerrilla tactics, then you need a convination of counter-guerrilla and counter-terrorists tactics to fight it.
The thing its, of course, that counter-guerrilla and counter-terrorists tactics don't match. One annul the benefits of the other.

To explain how all this work its to complicated, and I know that people that haven't served in the military always confuse both kind of unconventional warfare, but just as a quick example, in a counter-guerrilla war you try to win the population over at whatever the price, you invest heavily on the pop while negating those investments to the guerrillas, invesments as school, hospitals and so on, which are used as propaganda tools by the guerrillas as proof that they can serve the Pop better than the goverment.
Captured guerrillas are to be treaty well, so the guerrilla myth about goverment brutality are uncovered as such. The objectives of counter-guerrila war are:
1- Alienate the guerrilla from the local population.
2- Eliminate the cause roots promoting popular support for the guerrilla.
3- Convince the population of the evilness of the guerrilla. (i.e. through black ops like faking guerrilla manuals with a section on seducing local girls or setting forth techniques for torturing village leaders)
4- To take strategic initiative from the guerrilla, so they have to either defend or evacute. (guerrillas are ussually very bad on the defensive)
5- Demoralize the guerrilla. (Black ops can convince the guerrillas that they have been infiltrated by spies from the govt. which often results in large numbers of loyal guerrillas being killed and mistrust being sewn among the reminder.)
6- Defeat the guerrilla militarily.


On a counter-terrorist war, however, you can't win the pop over because the objectives of the war are diferent. Its not about defeating a goverment or ocupaying power militarily, but about cowering that power through terror to surrender or evacuate.
That means that in a counter-terrorists war your only objective are the terrorists themselves. You got to take them out, especialy the leadership, cutting the head of the snake, and try to make sure it doesn't grow back.
Any measure you take to win the population over in this case will inevitable backfire.
Terrorist Groups also require far less personal to carry out their attacks, which add to their stealthyness. They use suicide bombers, which leave no operative to be captured and interrogated. Terrorist use urban terrain as thheir theatre of operations. Its not casuality that....(ill continue later

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

Nice synopsis. Great research. Two thumbs up for you! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif
But with guerilla warfare I mean playing hide and seek in a concrete jungle (of a green jungle for that matter). It is so incredible hard to track down every single member of the group. It might take a decade to eradicate the entire group. And yes, you can do that with the methodes which you describe. And even than you don't always have a 100% succesrate.
In open warfare the USA ís the most difficult opponent of all. Quite simply; you have the most sophisticated army around.
So I meant the sneaking around, not the guerilla warfare definition.
After all, I'm just a stupid civvie. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

puke fear sells products... embrace fear...

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

I say screw the sky lasers. Lets put big rock launching catapolts and cross-bow spear launchers up there. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That was not a result of the supreme effectiveness of guerilla tactics, but a result of not waging a real invasion on the part of the US for fear of massive riots at home. If the US forces were not severely restricted, Vietnam would have fallen in months at most.

[ April 01, 2004, 03:13: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is true. Look at the IRA. It has been proven in various referendums, polls etrc that the vast majority of ppl in Ireland- catholic & protestant on both sides of the border- just want everyone to stop killing one another and come to some sort of peace. Most of them were happy with the Good Friday agreement and support the principle of the power-sharing idea.

But the IRA and other bastard Groups over there keep blowing stuff up, keep killing people. There is no way they can possibly claim to have the support of the population any more, and I for one am no longer willing to even credit them with a political agenda. As far as I'm concerned they are a bunch of psychopaths who enjoy killing, and only use the political thing as an attempt to justify their sick passtime. These people should be treated as murderers and lunatics, not as some kind of political force.

Look at the Omagh bombing- that wasn't targetted at any particular population. Both catholics and protestants died that day. People from north and republic of Ireland, as well as people from other countries altogether. How can they claim to do it for anything other than sadistic pleasure?

Same applies to the ppl who organised the WTC attacks. Stop treating them like some political/ national force backed by a population and start treating them like the criminals they are.

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

its about control of the illegal economy in ireland now. 'Used to finance our political agenda'

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

You do know this is an excellent idea?

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What are you talking about Russia is a wonder weapon

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

The url Puke gave states that the Russian Military tested the weapon. That is ridiculous! Half the country can't feed itself the other half is so devasated by crime that they can't do anything usefull for the world or their country (Trust me, I know, I've been to Russia and the surrounding countries quite a few times, and my GF comes from Poland. So I receive a lot of news from that corner of the world). And Putin has to develop a new weapon. Can't he do something useful for his people?
Yeah, I know a new weapon sells. And a good selling weapon means profit. But you can be assurd that the profit he gains won't go to Mother Russia. The great can of money will be emptied in useless things like the Tjetchin War.
Stupid arse.

Sorry if I sound a bit angry, but this is soooo grrr.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

Russia is so crippled by crime that now they must export it to the USA. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif My insurance agent was telling me about all these russian car accident scams. My god that is frightening.

To think the guy who slams on his breaks in front of you ACTUALLY wants an accident. I am a big advocate for dash board cameras.

"You rear-ended me. I sue you for million dollars!"
"Well ok, see you in court."

-COURT-
"So Mr. Solvic, you claim that my client just ran into you?"
"Yes. He is poor driver. I have many broken necks cause of him. My wife and childrend go hungry as I no can work because of him."
"Really. So your saying that you did nothing to cause this accident?"
"I do nothing, I drive in stait line and boom, I hit from back end."

Show video of russian driver cutting you off and slaming on breaks. Car has no break lights, but tires screech.

Jury finds for defendant 100%

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hey, I didn't know Kazajstan had a navy!
The Caspian Sea Navy, perhaps? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

I read about those a few years back, but they had supprising little press coverage. really cool stuff!

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

If cavitation is making prop noise, then super cavitation is making lotsa prop noise. I always thought that was bad in sub warfare. Isn't that why the U.S. finally invented swim out torpedoes to reduce the noise during launch? So I guess the Russians assume that with a 200 mph torpedo, enemy subs won't have time to even notice. That really is more impressive then a maneuvorable re-entry vehicle for an ICBM.

Speaking of ICBM's, why doesn't someone make a heated toilet seat!

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

The Russian super-torpedo:


"In 1997 Russia announced that it had developed a high-speed unguided underwater torpedo, which has no equivalent in the West. Code-named the Shkval or "Squall," the Russian torpedo reportedly travels so fast that no U.S. defense can stop it.

In late 2000, after the sinking of the Russian submarine Kursk, new reports began circulating that the Chinese navy had bought the Shkval torpedo.

"The Shkval" stated Richard Fisher, a defense analyst and senior fellow at the Jamestown Foundation, "was designed to give Soviet subs with less capable sonar the ability to kill U.S. submarines before U.S. wire-guided anti-sub torpedoes could reach their target. The Chinese navy would certainly want to have this kind of advantage over U.S. subs in the future. At the speed that it travels, the Shkval could literally punch a hole in most U.S. ships, with little need for an explosive warhead."

"This torpedo travels at a speed of 200 knots, or five to six times the speed of a normal torpedo, and is especially suited for attacking large ships such as aircraft carriers," Fisher said. "


------------------------

"Pope, an American businessman, was charged by Russian authorities with spying, specifically that he had sought to buy plans for the "ultra-high-speed torpedo."

"Evidence does suggest" said Scientific American, "that both incidents revolved around an amazing and little-reported technology that allows naval weapons and vessels to travel submerged at hundreds of miles per hour – in some cases, faster than the speed of sound in water."

The new technology that allows for these superfast torpedoes "is based on the physical phenomenon of supercavitation."

According to Scientific American, the new generation of torpedoes, some believed capable of carrying nuclear warheads, are surrounded by a "renewable envelope of gas so that the liquid wets very little of the body's surface, thereby drastically reducing the viscous drag" on the torpedo.

The new technology "could mean a quantum leap in naval warfare that is analogous in some ways to the move from prop planes to jets or even to rockets and missiles."

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

More about the squall:


"The Shkval is a 6,000-pound rocket torpedo, about 27 feet long with a range of about 7,500 yards. It can fly through the water at more than 230 miles an hour.

The solid-rocket-propelled "torpedo" achieves this high speed by producing a high-pressure stream of bubbles from its nose and skin, which coats the weapon in a thin layer of gas. The Shkval flies underwater inside a giant "envelope" of gas bubbles in a process called "supercavitation."

The Shkval is so fast that it is guided by an autopilot rather than by a homing head as on most torpedoes. The original Shkval was designed to carry a tactical nuclear warhead detonated by a simple timer clock. However, the Russians recently began advertising a homing Version, which runs out at very high speed, then slows to search for its target.

"As there are no known countermeasures to such a weapon," stated David Miler in an April 1995 article "Supercavitation Going to War in a Bubble" (Jane's Intelligence Review), "its development could have significant effect on future maritime operations, both surface and subsurface, and could put Western naval forces at a considerable disadvantage."

Scientific American reports that China has purchased around 40 Shkval torpedoes from Kazakstan, "raising the possibility that Beijing could threaten American naval forces in a future confrontation in the Taiwan Strait." The magazine also says that a Chinese submarine officer was on board the ill-fated Kursk "to observe the test of the new Version of the Shkval."

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

Is this not the same new torpedo that blew up one of their subs a few years back?

*edit*

Missed this so ya it was.

" the ill-fated Kursk"

[ April 05, 2004, 12:34: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I had one of those warmed toiletseats. Man, that was GREAT!!! Untill it broke.
My GF sometimes yelled at me because I was in the little room far too long to be healthy. She actually was concerned some times. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

Now what would China and Russa want with such obviously offensive weapons? Are they looking for a war? Well if we went to war with China that would be interesting. Fighting against copy cats of our own military weapons. I wonder how reliable those are. I mean since most copy cat crap from China sux arse horribly, I have to wonder if their copy cat of the F-14 will fly and if so how well. I wonder if their Version of the Hummer is an H2 or a real hummer copy?

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

Atrocities, sometimes I wonder about your view on the world http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The USA also develops and builds offensive weapons, hey, even us in Sweden develop and builds our own fighter and attack jetplanes, it doesn't mean we're going to break our almost 200 years long period of peace and go out trying to conquer the world. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif
This is as the world is.

[ April 06, 2004, 07:10: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

Ruatha when in doubt just look at my name. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

For the record I live in a liberal Media controlled environment so the truth is something that is never spoken here. It is up the people of the world and the World Wide Web to keep me informed on truth.

So when I post odd things that make no sense at all, just keep in mind that I am from the USA. Nuff Said. (Or as the French like to call us "Ugly Stupid Americans!" or was it "Unbelievably Stupid Americans?" I forget after the war thingy.)

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

Atrocities
I believe the correct term used by the French is:
"Eish, Stupid Americans!"

I got a chance to hear it a couple of times a few weeks back when I was in Paris and I observed a small group of Americans talking about what souveniers they bought in Paris...

and this guy said:"I got this way out cool Batman action figure !!!!"
and the 2 blond cheerleaders next to him said:" Come on Craig show it pleeeese !"

needles to say their little conversation triggered quite a few of the aforementioned satements from the nearby sitting french people. Oh and from me and a few of my pals to... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ April 06, 2004, 10:38: Message edited by: JurijD ]

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

its not so much that american tourists are stupid. and its not so much that all tourists are stupid. its that all PEOPLE are stupid. you just dont notice it so much when they are in their native environment and surrounded by other people just like them.

but i promise you, people are all equally idiotic no matter where you go.

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

What would happen with a war with China? France would get rich. France is just begging to sell China some French fighter jets and helicopters. Also Last week they were conducting joint Navy exercises with the Chinese? Taiwan isn't too happy with that either. Do you get the feeling France is increasingly trying to suck up to the wrong people?
The war plan is to take out their ports, hopefully without nukes. Fast torpedoes and Mirage 2000 jets would make that very difficult.
So France is pro Islamisists, Pro totalitarian?
I don't want to think that but...Hopefully we'll hear from Unknown Enemy on this one.

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

I guess it is time to re-arm Germany.

Re: Russia new wonder weapon?
 

anyone with lepoard tanks isnt disarmed.

so France, who is banning head scarfs, is pro islamist? riiiiight. you guys are so much fun.