Mistake in PPB data?
 

Hi all,

I'm well aware that everyone has pretty much reached the conclusion that PPBs are undercosted research-wise for the damage they do. I was just mulling over the data files for some of the weapons and noticed a bit of a discrepancy. Here's the PPB damage values:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">1 30 25 25 25 20 20 5,000
2 45 40 40 40 35 35 10,000
3 50 45 45 45 40 40 22,500
4 55 50 50 45 45 45 40,000
5 60 55 55 55 50 50 62,500</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Note the progression between level 1 and 2 - 15pts across the board! Contrast this with APBs changes per level of either 0 or 5 pts and it seems odd. Then note that it's a flat 5pts per level after that for PPB, and I can't help but feel that this is a mistake and there are 2 missing levels of PPBs meant to be here, ie:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">1 30 25 25 25 20 20 5,000
2 35 30 30 30 25 25 10,000
3 40 35 35 35 30 30 22,500
4 45 40 40 40 35 35 40,000
5 50 45 45 45 40 40 62,500
6 55 50 50 45 45 45 90,000
7 60 55 55 55 50 50 122,500</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Adding in these two new levels would result in the following research costs:

APB to max = 1,677,500
old PPBs = 290,000
new PPBs = 502,500

I think this still leaves PPBs undercosted, but seems like a step in the right direction. Anyone have any thoughts on this? I think I will make this change to the next game I play with my friends, as well as interleaving shields and phased shields in the Shield tech, as opposed to having to get to Shields 6 to start on phased shielding. Perhaps these 2 small tweaks will introduce some more weapon diversity in our group's games.

/UseOfWeps.

Re: Mistake in PPB data?
 

Interesting.

Re: Mistake in PPB data?
 

Arise! Ye olde dead horse!

All sarcasm aside, you are right in that PPB's could use some balancing in most peoples' opinion. PPB balancing discussions have been debated at length here on several occasions in the past. Best thing I can tell you is either mod your files or use a mod that you think balances them to your liking. There are unfortunately no more intended patches to SE4. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Slick.

[ April 02, 2004, 14:30: Message edited by: Slick ]

Re: Mistake in PPB data?
 

Sorry for resurrecting a long dead issue. I only started playing reasonably recently, and didn't see anything in the Dubious guide about missing levels, just under costing. So I thought I had a new angle, but more likely someone else has noticed the discrepancies in damage increases and posted it here before me.

/UseOfWeps.

Re: Mistake in PPB data?
 

There are more issues to balancing, like the totally useless torpedoes and weapons like the Meson BLaster.
I don't know many mods, which one could be recommended if I just want as basic SE as possible only with better weapon/tech balancing?

[ April 02, 2004, 17:46: Message edited by: Roanon ]

Re: Mistake in PPB data?
 

I suggest looking to SE3 for weapons balance.

Re: Mistake in PPB data?
 

Did Aaron actually manage to make this game that much worse? I just thought he just hadn't paid attention to this, but deliberatly changing something working to this stuff, where a 6 year old can find out that they make no sense at all, by just looking at the figures, without ever having played the game, is ... hmmm. And what did the beta testers do? Were there any? Lowers my expectations for SE V even more.

So where is the SE3 mod? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Mistake in PPB data?
 

I started one of those, but gave up after a while... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Mistake in PPB data?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, I suggest looking at SJ's Pirates and Nomads mod to see a good example of PPB balance. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

It does seem that the PPB is a little unfair as a weapon. But that may be the point. Against the standard AI, once you figure out to rush the research, you can beat the AI easily. Once you've beaten the AI a few times, you can ignore the PPB to handicap yourself.

Re: Mistake in PPB data?
 

You can often be just as effective, if not even far more effective, by rushing for Combat Support 2 and Sensors 2 instead, as well as training. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif PPBs are not really a necessary weapon in most cases, especially given their high cost. Of course, it all depends on whether the enemy has had time to research these things and their PPBs or not when war breaks out. But usually, better combat bonuses can defeat better weapons.

Re: Mistake in PPB data?
 

In PBW games, I find I get PPB about the same time the other players get phased shields. Honestly, it's been so long since I even researched PPB, I forget just how good they are.
I've learned from Fyron: go for APB!

Re: Mistake in PPB data?
 

Most of the stuff that seems obvious, isn't.

You can get Meson VI a LOT faster than APB XII, for example and do 1.75 dmg/kt at max range. Torps? 2.5 dmg/kt vs APB's 1.67 at rng 6 and 2.16 at min. The fire rate cuts that in half, but they were likely built as counters to things like emissive armor and crystalline armor.

Re: Mistake in PPB data?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Your post about the PPB was very on target and don't let the fact that it has been discussed before scare you off the topic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

You did an excellent job of showing the problem and I for one appreciate it. Thanks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Mistake in PPB data?
 

I find that the strength of the PPB varies with the size of the game... Some games they dominate, other games they are wasted research. KOTH games (usually quick, 1 vs 1 games on small map) generally don't see them as much. In a game where allies are trading tech, they can dominate the midgame. But by the time the end game rolls around, they are usually replaced with the APB.

Other suggested tweaks I've seen that seem good:
- considerably reduce the damage for levels 1 and 2
- reduce damage on all levels by 5-10
- give it a -10% to hit
- increase the Rads cost (which is already quite high)
- make Physics 3 a prereq instead of physics 2 (maybe swapping it with Cloaking Technology)

Another factor that might make the PPB seem so amazing in your group is "groupthink" -- since everyone is using it, esp the winner, it appears that it is the only weapon worth using. It is a good weapon, but in certain situations (mostly economical), I think the Meson BLaster is the better midgame choice. And if my research is low for whatever reason, the lowly DUC IV can sometimes suffice.

Re: Mistake in PPB data?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Definitely. Don't research past DUCs until you have these areas researched.

Re: Mistake in PPB data?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In my current 6 player game, 3 folk are basically out currently, at turn 52. The other 3 of us are pretty even, one guy is no racial tech using PPBs, one guy is organics and I'm religious with APBs, currently at APB7. Once I finish up my combat techs over the next few turns, I should be rolling out battlecruisers with a 2-square range advantage over the PPB ships, and using a custom strategy of max range/ nearestx4 I hope to be able to pick off the PPB ships from distance.

I had said to the guys at the beginning of the game that I thought PPBs were too cheap and I wouldn't be using them, but one of the other guys doesn't have my scruples. So I intend to show him the error of his ways. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif My post about balancing the PPBs were more from the angle of the strange damage increases rather than the cheapness of the research, but obviously it has a nice side effect of adding a couple hundred k to the cost to max PPBs. I think I'll make these changes in our next game - now that all of us are more at home with the game I think the other guys will see my point.

/UseOfWeps.

Re: Mistake in PPB data?
 

Hmmm,
While the PPB is a bit unballanced because of the cheap research, its by no means the überweapon some think it is. The Talisman however is so unballanced many games forbid the religious tech alltogether. The poor guy in your game with PPB and no racials is at a severe dissadvantage, while the organic guy at least have a glimmer of hope if he know how to fight a religious player http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Mistake in PPB data?
 

I actually think PPB II is about as good or better than the higher levels, because the range and cost to damage ratio is so good. 5000 research is sooooo cheap too.

PvK

Re: Mistake in PPB data?
 

PPB is good but has these drawbacks:

1. It is expensive in terms of minerals and rads. I really adds up to a lot of maintenace.

2. It takes research to get to the PPB tree, And consumes research.

It may be better to research Shield depelters and APB.
SD trees off the shield field which you typically research anyway.
APB has twelve levels. So it would take a minimum of 1.2 years to research it.
Spending turns researching other weapons could delay the APB and SD.

Don't under estimate DUCs. They are cheap to research and pack a good punch. They are expensive when compared to APB.