OT - Tribute to a hero
 

Within the Last 24 hours, America lost a hero. Pat Tillman, former Arizona Cardinal football player turned Army Ranger, was killed in action in Afghanistan.

CNN Story

Regardless of the politics involved (and I REALLY don't want this to become a political thread), a man who passes on a $3.6 million NFL contract offer to join the army and serve his country is someone very special. Not only did he join the army, he refused any special treatment that he so easily could have obtained given his status, but rather wanted to be just another soldier protecting his homeland.

Pat Tillman was a man among men, and a true role-model. He is also a reminder of the others out there with him, putting their lives on the line so that we can go about our daily lives in relative security. We easily forget just how much we owe them.

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

I was saddened when I heard the news earlier today. Truly, an American hero. Unfortunately, in about 6 months, some made for tv bio-pic will come out that won't do this man justice. But let's hear it for all of the soldiers over there!!

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

hoo rah

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

A study in sharp contasts...

A *man* who forgoes a multi-million dollar NFL contract to fight for his country

VS

A *kid* who goes Supreme Court justice shopping to find someone who will force the NFL to let him into the draft before he's legally old enough to do so.

To the former - a salute to a fallen hero http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

To the latter - GET A LIFE, KID! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

[ April 23, 2004, 18:01: Message edited by: General Woundwort ]

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

I read about it elsewhere, and I'm still stunned. Managed to get a different quote for my sig 'tho -- little long.

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

"It is not the voices of our enemies we hear but rather the silence of our friends." - MLK Jr.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

Godspeed, Mr. Tillman.

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

just wondering, why EXACTLY do you consider this man a "hero" ?

I for one define "hero" by other words/abilities/things

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

Aye, Godspeed!

Anyone who makes through Ranger school IS special.

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

Any death is a tragedy, but I can't say anything else without getting political.

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My brother almost made it through Ranger school (while I do not support his actions) but the hair person gave him a bad cut and his lead guy (forgot the name) asked him if he got it cut, my brother said yes but the guy thought he was lying so he kicked him out of it.

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

Anyone feeling the urge to get political in this issue, just remember a couple things. Tillman signed up after 9/11 before things got started in Iraq. While he did some time in Iraq, he didn't ask to go there. And when he died it was fighting Al-queda and Taliban remnants in Afghanistan, not in Iraq.

Regardless of you feel about the rightness or wrongness of the war in Iraq or the administration policies in general, most of the world supported the decision to go into Afghanistan. That's the cause Tillman walked away from his privelaged life for, and that's the cause he died for.

[ April 23, 2004, 21:08: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My brother almost made it through Ranger school (while I do not support his actions) but the hair person gave him a bad cut and his lead guy (forgot the name) asked him if he got it cut, my brother said yes but the guy thought he was lying so he kicked him out of it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That ranks as one of the stupidest things i've heard.

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well... exactly. putting your life in jeapordy for your country/ freedom/ what you believe in takes guts. If I believed the cause was just I'd like to think I'd do the same.

The trouble is I wouldn't trust my government (or any other gang of bloodsuc^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H politicians) to do anything for the benefit of the country/ freedom/ anything other than serving their own agendas.

I'm afraid the man in question (and many others like him) made a very brave gesture, but then had his life thrown away by some self-serving bastard in an office 2 continents away.

Maybe I've gone too far already. I'll shut up now.

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I guess if we have to explain it to you, then it is most likely you may not understand. For that I am truly sorry.

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I strongly urge all to honor Alpha's request and keep the politics out of this thread. Thank you.

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

Well said, Atrocities, and thanks.

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

Here is a good commentary on the death of Pat Tillman.

ESPN

It is too easy to forget those who put their lives on the line daily. Perhaps this death will help us to remember. I know it is bringing it home to me.

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

wow AK. This has really hit home with you.

I raised a glass tonight for you and your pain over Mr. Tillman.

Take Care

Simon

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

The sad thing is, so many people die, I can't care enough about all of them, only far less than they deserve.

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks Tesco. I followed Tillman's career at Arizona State University, then when he was with the Arizona Cardinals. He was a player that excelled when everyone thought he couldn't because of his size and speed. I enjoyed watching him because of his heart and attitude. When he gave up his career to join the army, it really impressed me. There are so many athletes (and other people, for that matter) who are caught up in themselves, and he provided a marked contrast to that. I guess that since I had been a fan of his as a football player it just seems almost like I know him a little bit. Since his story was probably not so well known outside of Arizona, I wanted to make sure that people understood just what sort of a man he was.

As for the pain, it will pass quickly for me. It is just a reminder to me of what a lot of very brave individuals are doing for me all of the time. Those that will have to deal with it for real are his wife, parents, brothers and friends. My thoughts and prayers are with them, as well as the families and friends of the others who are dying in places far from home.

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I guess if we have to explain it to you, then it is most likely you may not understand. For that I am truly sorry. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ragnarok-X, I guess you and I are just not smart enough to understand... or perhaps our standards are higher.

These days a person dies from cancer and is a hero, a crossing guard gets run over and is a hero, a woman is attacked and lies dying a ditch for a week and is a hero. I'm sorry, these people had no choice so how could they be heroic?

Mr. Tillman was under orders, on patrol, he was merely doing his job. That does not make him a hero. Something else I'm unaware of may make him a hero, but not simply doing his job and having the misfortune to be killed in the process.

Don't get me wrong, I believe Mr. Tillman is a fine example, an outstanding role model for anyone in this sorry world. There are countless others like him, worldwide. What he has done is noble and patriotic, but not heroic.

I tip my hat to a fine citizen of planet earth.

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

Well I guess I fit in with you Grandpa Kim and Ragnarok-X. I'm afraid I can not consider this man a hero. A hero to me is someone who performs an action or deed which goes way beyond what is expected of him, and way beyond what the vast majority of the population would do. A knowing sacrifice of ones self for another would be considered heroic by me. But the man we are talking about did not join the army knowing he was going to sacrifice his life for another. He probably expected to return. His life was cut short by a fanatical person, who is probably thought of as a hero by his own people. Therefore, heroism depends completely on your point of view. And, from my point of view, although this man may be patriotic and basically a good person, I can not consider him a hero.

This is simply my opinion, please no one take offense from it. I know there are many people who would disagree with me, but that's what makes the world interesting isn't it??

Tyrel

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Jumping into this thread against my better judgement...

Let's see, Tillman turned down a huge offer from St. Louis in 2001 to stay with the Arizona Cardinals, because they were the team that beleived in him when everyone else said he was too small to be an NFL linebacker. Does that go "way beyond what is expected of him"?

A year later, he walked away from a three-year, $3.6 million offer from Arizona to join the Army. Is that "what the vast majority of the population would do"?

We can't all be Joan d'Arc or Mahatma Ghandi. We can only do the best with where circumstances have put us.

Pat Tillman consistently made choices that demonstrated his desire to do what he beleived to be honorable and right, despite the personal cost. Did he choose to die? Of course not. But he chose to place himself in a dangerous situation to serve his country. Despite my political views, I respect his actions immensely.

Hero? Absolutely.

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

Every day I wake up wondering if I will get “the call”.
Every waking moment I live in fear that someone in a uniform will knock on my door.
Every night I go to bed shacking from terror fighting back the tears that this could be “the night”.

What would I tell my kids? How would I face the rest of my life alone?

He was a hero, they are all heroes.

It is not the “definition” that makes them heroes; it is the “choices” they made.

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

From Taterbill:

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">On that basis, every single person joining the military should be considered a hero. Shoot, I should be considered a hero for braving Deerfoot Trail during rush hour. I could be killed! But I choose to do so to feed my family. I made a choice to go into danger. Am I a hero? I think not.

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

It's tragic that Tilman had to be Martyred for a cause he believed in. His sacrifice highlights to me the need for a draft, with no deferments, so that we all have an immediate personal stake in where our soldiers are sent.

Anywway we all participate in "defending our way of life" because we pay taxes. Nearly 50% of our tax dollars goes to funding the military and veterans.

[ April 24, 2004, 19:51: Message edited by: rextorres ]

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

Hero is very subjective. Tillman sounds like a hero to me and I suspect a lot of soldier's would.

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, in 2003, which is obviously the most recent year for which concrete numbers are available, total defense and veteran affairs spending was approximately 18.15% of the federal budget.

Defense: $356.3B
Veterans Affairs: $26.4B
Total Federal Outlays: $2158.0B

Source:
Government Printing Office web site:
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy05/browse.html

Bill

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

Bill,

You made a mistake in your calculations. You included social security and medicare spending which is money people are merely getting back. I believe tax for this should not be used for anything else.

Social Security/Medicare Spending ~ $1.2B (Social Security Tax is collected for this)

Discretionary Spending ~ $800M - Defense Spending ~ $400M (Income Tax is collected for this)

So i'll clarify - 50% of our income tax goes to defense spending.

Anyway - my original point still stands - we all participate to "protect our way of life" which is true whether the portion of the taxes we pay to protect it is ~20% or ~50%.

[ April 24, 2004, 22:23: Message edited by: rextorres ]

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

Social security is not money people are getting back. There is no "lockbox"; the system pays money out immediately from one person's paycheck to the retiree's SS check.

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

Hmm . . . I expect that the 15% (i'm self employed) i pay every year in social security tax i will get back (in the form of social security) when I retire.

The problem is that the social security surplus is being used to hide an even bigger deficit. If it were set aside there wouldn't be a social security crisis.

[ April 24, 2004, 22:32: Message edited by: rextorres ]

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

If it were set aside, A. it wouldn't work as of now, because most people would either already be retired or have nothing in their box and B. you'd be better off letting people keep it and invest it themselves..

EDIT: and very shortly social security won't have a surplus, it'll have a deficit. Should point out this proves it isn't the lockbox model, since by definition you can't have a surplus in that.

[ April 24, 2004, 22:45: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

sigh, I guess there is no chance for this thread now. *shakes head and walks away*

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

Rextorres, you said 50% of your tax dollar. As you point out, if you amend that to nearly 50% of discretionary federal spending, then yes, I agree.

Geo is right, though. This thread has gotten ridiculously OT the OT.

Tillman is a hero to me. As are my dad, Dietrich Bonhoffer, Corrie ten Boom, and many others than mean nothing to many of you. That's fine... everyone is free to choose those that they emulate. I just happen to believe that the world would be a better place if more people approached it with a value system similar to Tillman's.

Bill

[ April 25, 2004, 02:51: Message edited by: taterbill ]

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

That's part of the tragedy. The politicians who sent Tilman are the very same ones who did not follow Tilman's example. They did everything within their power not to go.

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

Alpha you may delete the thread if you wish. That will end the off topic and political discussion in your thread. Or you can ask that it be locked since you originated the thread.

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

For those of you that may have misunderstood:

What I posted below may sound like some poem I found or made up. IT IS NOT! This is the pain that I live with every day of my life; these are things that creep into my mind no matter how hard I try to drive them out.

Tillman is a hero! So are all the others in our armed forces. They are heroes because they chose to join. He didn’t go over to die, he went to serve. Damn the Webster definition of a hero. If you save a baby in a burning car does that make you a hero? If you help a trapped man after a storm does that make you a hero? Yes it does and why? Because you chose to help and he [Tillman] is a hero, along with all the other men and woman of the armed forces, because he choose to serve!

[ April 25, 2004, 02:10: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

From Taterbill

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Couldn't agree with you more!

Seems the only thing we are arguing about is the definition of "hero", not the quality of Mr. Tillman.

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

The reason that I consider Pat Tillman a hero is not that he died, but what he gave up to be a soldier. I considered him a hero the moment he gave up a multi-million dollar contract to join the army. There aren't many who have made that sort of sacrifice voluntarily. I respect those who define hero differently, and have no problem with them. I read a post in another forum by a currently active service member that summed it up well. She said that she had joined to serve, but also because she needed the education and experience to open up a future for herself, while Mr. Tillman already had all of that. He didn't need anything from the military, he only wanted to serve.

What I see in the death of Pat Tillman is a reminder that the news everyday of another soldier or soldiers fallen is not just another numbing statistic, but the loss of an individual. I understand that there are differing political views on this forum, and I appreciate the fact (and am not surprised by it) that those who oppose the current administration still recognize the courage and value of his choices.

I do not give up hope for this thread. It's purpose is to honor those who willingly put themselves in harm's way to protect the rest of us. It may have been sidetracked a few times, but there is still a sense of respect here that has value. I do not doubt that there are a significant number here (not just Americans, but from all over the world) who have a friend or loved one (or even themselves) in the military and have to wonder every day what will happen. That is something that transcends politics.

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

Well said Alpha. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ April 25, 2004, 08:00: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

I echo Atrocities: Well said, Alpha

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

Now that I read all your opinions, I may be forced to reconsider my own. Perhaps he was a hero. At the very least, he was a good man, who had his life senselessly cut short, and no one deserves that. A hero to me is someone willing to give up a lot, in favor of the morally right course. I'm not sure if joining the military is morally right, but regardless of that, I respect all of you who regard the man as a hero. I think that if everyone had the same qualities as Tillman, the world would be a much better place. If we were all willing to take a bullet for someone else, even though we may die, the world would be a much better place for my children to grow up in (when I have children of course, which I don't now). Personally, I think I would take a bullet for someone else, and would that make me a hero? I think not. It would simply make me human. And I think that Tillman may not be a hero, but simply more human than the rest of the world.

I hope that made sense to you all, I'm not trying to step on any toes here or anything, nor am I trying to derail the thread or offend anyone. I'm simply stating my opinion.

Tyrel

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

[quote]Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:

Quote:

Originally posted by Ragnarok: That ranks as one of the stupidest things i've heard.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What part of it? The fact that he was booted out because of a bad hair cut? If so then yeah, I agree, but it is a true story.

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

[quote]Originally posted by Ragnarok:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:

Quote:

Originally posted by Ragnarok: That ranks as one of the stupidest things i've heard.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What part of it? The fact that he was booted out because of a bad hair cut? If so then yeah, I agree, but it is a true story. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Basically, the whole thing. The guy who gave him a bad cut, probably knowing it could get him kicked out, the guy who assumed he was lying without knowing him and the rule that said a bad haircut is a reason to get kicked out.

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, I agree with your statement there. But not much can be done about it now enfortunately.

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

I read about Pat Tillman in the English papers this morning, so was interested to read this thread.

I saw the discussion about whether this poor chap was a hero or not as the case may be. I had a look at the definition of "hero" in the Oxford English Dictionary, and was interested to see that one of the limbs of the definition was as follows:

"A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life"

Well, it is obvious to me at least that this man evidenced strong moral views. To give up a life of riches and comfort and to put yourself, as Dogscoff said, at the direction of perhaps misguided people into danger, show to me if nothing else, a nobility of purpose.

Was he heroic? possibly not in the classic sense of the word. But it strikes me that it takes unusual courage to make this sort of decision, and whilst he was not going into any greater danger than other soldiers with less fortunate backgrounds, it still is an unusual and noteworthy action. I hope that serving his country gave him all he was looking for.

I am ex-military, I have an extremely comfortable lifestyle now, with sufficient money that I can pretty much do what I want (ok work commitments mean I never have the time to do any of it, at least not the bits involving Angelina Jolie). I would like to think that I have the nobility of purpose to give this all up and take up arms to fight for something I believe in. I doubt however, that I have the courage to.

Whatever this man was, and whatever he did, whether he was a hero or not. He was a patriot, and was willing to risk his life for his beliefs. You have to give that respect, whatever side of the fence it comes from (keep in mind that your terrorists are their freedom fighters etc).

He gets my respect.

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

I havent read the article but the only time I ever saw a bad haircut kick someone out is when they did it on purpose. Such as being told to trim the sideburns, and getting them trimmed halfway up the side of your head. Usually if someone does it to you all you have to do is keep your mouth shut and get it done again even if its a total buzz-cut.

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Regrettably this happens more often than not. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

My grandfather in WWII (10th Armored Division) had to deal with friendly fire on a regular basis. They were even straffed by our own planes from time to time.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: OT - Tribute to a hero
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So if the word "hero" must now mean anyone who joins an army or who helps someone in need ... what words would you use to explain the difference between say, Audie Murphy or John Paul Jones, and random soldiers, or anyone who helps anyone else out?

I suppose (even without taking hyperbolic language abuse by commerical news media into account), the word "hero" has long been used in a very broad range of ways, to mean everything from, as you say, simply helping someone else or doing something dangerous and selfless, to tales of Hercules.

The problems then are abuse and misunderstanding. It's not as a specific term as some people take it when it bothers them. The speaker needs to make clear what they mean, and the listener must understand, or major misunderstanding can easily occur. When either doesn't appreciate the subtlety, and has fixed but different ideas about the term, it gets worse. When the media is over-using charged terms just to boost the hype level, it gets out of control. For the local news, any unexpected death is an excuse to bring out the word "tragedy".

Seems to me the words don't have much meaning by themselves in a modern context where they've been abused so much. Arguing about whether someone is a "hero" or not usually boils down to a difference of definitions, which the arguers mis-cast as a disagreement about something more concrete.

PvK