OT: Atrocities
 

(nothing to do with one of our most active and thought-provoking members)

I'm a retired soldier. So, I have at least SOME history on this comment.

In war, especially when your "foxhole" buddy has been blown to pieces while you watched, especially when your best friend has been killed while bending over to give the candy bar from his MREs to a child, well, you get angry. Angry at war, angry at the enemy, and angry (I suspect) at the whole world for "endorsing" war as a solution.

Why have I started this way?

Because I understand why soldiers of the US army participated in the recent degrading and despicable treatment of Iraqi prisoners. The photos. And I know these soldiers are probably 19-20 years old and have NOT had enough time to mature enough to realize what kind of impact they have in their mistreatment of POWs.

But that is not an excuse. It's just plain wrong to run around the world acting like you are the world's "saviour" and treat human beings like that! It's WRONG! Even IF you aren't "God's Chosen Planetary Custodian", it's wrong. It's wrong in tribal warfare in Africa. It's wrong ANYWHERE.

Common citizens are coerced into fighting for their country for the beliefs that the reigning authority has deemed necessary. Everyone, mostly, beleives in what they are killing their fellow human beings for. Fine! So be it. But when you have captured a prisoner, not only is it your human responsibility to treat that person with a certain amount of respect, it's an agreement called the Geneva Convention.

IF we (the US) think we are the moral enforcement for the world (ugh!), then we should act as such (at least). I am ashamed of what has been done to the Iraqi prisoners. Somewhere, someone should have impressed upon the "front line" the need to act with dignity and treat POWs with dignity. I don't care one FLIP if you believe in what they believe! Everyone knows that the "Arab World" is on a tightrope with us...so, in a chance to show proper consideration for POWs, we have failed.

And it only adds to the hatred around the world for the US. Sad, sad "policemen" we are.

What has been done is wrong and as an American, I offer my apology.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: OT: Atrocities
 

I don't know, I just feel compelled to respond to this post...

I offer my apologies as well. It is sickening to be associated with the "soldiers" who did all those things. But they're really just kids, like me; they have no business being there. My high school had a large percentage of students join the military (before graduating), and if they are any example of the average enlisted soldier, I know that most really *don't* have the maturity to deal with war. They really do hate all Arabs, and from what I know, military leadership hasn't done much to discourage that attitude; it's harder to have the soldiers fight when they are empathizing with the situation Iraqis are in.

I guess part of the problem is, a lot of people in the United States almost see war as something that happens to somebody else, and so the majority doesn't really care what happens. And so we send soldiers over who have the idea that the people they are "liberating", and the ones who are resisting, are less than human, all because of the actions of a few extremists. And thus the vicious cycle begins (or continues?).

I'm not sure what else to say; I don't really think I have the ability to say something more worthwhile. I learned about the dark side of war from my grandfather, and a few other veterans. I hope I never have to experience it myself, and I hope somehow the same impression he and they gave me can be given to everyone (not only the US). Maybe then people will start to be more human, instead of being sadistic animals.

Re: OT: Atrocities
 

I agree with everything posted so far. I wasn't going to say anything, but I wanted to add something to this:

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Let's give this SSgt the benefit of the doubt here: I'm ready to believe Stone Mill's assertion that (s)he would have been trained on it, but let's suppose that he had never been trained on the Geneva Convention.

Shouldn't (s)he have known better anyway? I don't need the Geneva Convention to know that treating people like that is just plain wrong in any situation.
"I wasn't trsained on the Geneva Convention" has to be the most pathetic excuse ever- it just makes the guilty party look even worse...

It's also interesting the amount of news coverage it's getting. It's been headline news here in Europe for several days, with the second story being how it is hardly being reported at all on US news.

Re: OT: Atrocities
 

Well, there's no doubt that the news media (in any country) can be known to tip-toe lightly when something as embarassing as this comes to light. And who can really know about the amount pressure put on the media by a country's ruling government to leave certain stories alone? Let's face it, as free as the US claims to be, it's not 100%.

But what was said about the Geneva Convention...and the SSgt. It reminds me of my daughter when she is caught doing something wrong with a piece of her furniture ("I didn't know I couldn't sit on a drawer!" or "I didn't know I wasn't supposed to climb on top of the dresser!") I shouldn't have to tell her every single thing she should do that mistreats furniture...she should know and I believe she does. It's just a desparate attempt to get out of trouble. And the same goes for that SSgt.

Re: OT: Atrocities
 

No better proof of the real bias of our media can be found than the handling of this story. This puts the whole rationale of 'rescuing' Iraq from the brutal dictator and his evil WMD programs to shame. So of course it must not be covered any more than absolutely necessary, because it makes the the chickenhawk buddies of the corporate news chiefs look bad. Shrub and his cronies stick together.

Anyone familiar with combat could have told Shrub something like this would happen. (Ahem... and Shrub himself could have known if he'd gone when it was his time.) It takes extra-ordinary strength of character to go into combat and not be twisted by it. And you can't have an army of tens of thousands of people of extra-ordinary strength of character. There aren't enough of them around. You have to send ordinary people into combat. Someone always steps over the line and commits 'war crimes' or 'atrocities' or whatever you want to call them when real combat occurs. Many of our troops did some very ugly things in WW II even though we were the 'good guys' but it was covered up. That's why war should always be a Last resort used only when absolutely unavoidable.

Re: OT: Atrocities
 

Although I am not American, I am a member of an allied country. I have to say putting aside whether we all went to war for a good reason or not that we are surposed to be the "good guys". Our efforts are based on the claim that we are fighting evil. Terrorists strike against America and allied countries because we are supposedly evil while we go around saying we are good and blameless. How can we convince those people the terrorists recruit from that we are on the side of right, when we do exactly what the terrorists accuse us of. I saw an arab expert on TV and he was saying it helps Al Qaida because now the terrorists turn around and say "see, the Americans are barbarians". Our troops are trying to bring order and peace to Iraq (yes, it is debatable if we made it worse to start with). It makes me frustrated that now instead of things slowly getting better, things will very likely stay just as bad or get even worse. I can't help imagining the Iraqi civilian who before was sitting on the fence, as it were, who will now go and kill allied troops because he has evidence of Allied atrocities. Not only are the soldiers in question responsible for atrocities, they should also, at worse, be considered traitors because they have effectively done propoganda work for the terrorists.

Re: OT: Atrocities
 

My mistake. And I am not a troll! I posted because this was the only thread worth posting in. I will retrun to lurking. And I was told that this was a friendly place.

[ May 03, 2004, 22:19: Message edited by: LordOffender ]

Re: OT: Atrocities
 

Dictor in CNN newsline:
1,5 millions of iraqis, suspected to sympathize with Al-Quaeda were executed Last week by the brave death squadrons of Alliance.
No one of the iraqis were tortured or sexually abused so everything is fine.

Re: OT: Atrocities
 

Aiken I believe this statement

"1,5 millions of iraqis, suspected to sympathize with Al-Quaeda were executed Last week by the brave death squadrons of Alliance."

about as much as I believe that I can fly myself to the moon.

This is bull crap and we all know it.

Re: OT: Atrocities
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That is 10 TIMES the largest estimate I could find on the internet for Iraqi casualties for the entire war , not just Last week. I checked CNN.com and there was no mention of this article, nor any executions by the alliance for any reason. Perhaps you could post a link to your source?

I did find a source for Iraq executing POW's, however:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/27/spr...pows.executed/

Slick.

[ May 01, 2004, 19:45: Message edited by: Slick ]

Re: OT: Atrocities
 

OMG, you guys amased me. This CAN happen, if the "blood for blood and arm for arm" principle will dominate in this war in both sides of conflict.

[ May 01, 2004, 20:04: Message edited by: aiken ]

Re: OT: Atrocities
 

Well, LordOffender, I understand your POV. However, I don't think "They mistreated our POWs so we are justified in mistreating theirs." is a good way to live life or conduct an affair under world scrutiny. To "win" this situation in Iraq, if indeed it is even possible, acting in a humane way is at least one of the keys.

Re: OT: Atrocities
 

AT, Slick:

I believe aiken was saying what *could* happen, if the view of LordOffender is allowed to hold sway. Not something that actually *did* happen.

--edit: and it looks like I was a bit slow on the response http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif
To me, as soon as I read aiken's original post, I was reminded of 1984, and the hate held for the "enemy", which at any point could be Eurasia or Eastasia...

--edit2: ... and I just noticed that LordOffender's first post was this one. At the risk of going off topic -- Welcome to the Boards, LordOffender. Please don't get discouraged by the "hot-button" threads like these, we really are all nice people, it's just there can be some heated disagreements http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[ May 01, 2004, 20:17: Message edited by: Will ]

Re: OT: Atrocities
 

And I have to add another thing. The problem you discussing is not about soldiers, but about their commanders. If they're unable to keep cast-iron discipline in their troops, they are not officers, but f*king managers.
And I don't belive it's impossible to find 1000 leaders with stable psyche and great will to command a 100,000 of casuals.

Re: OT: Atrocities
 

Will, I see now. Thanks for clarifying it.

If taken in that light what Aiken said would more than likely come to pass if the situation is allowed to continue and the US and its allies are forced to leave before a solid democratic government can be established.

[ May 01, 2004, 21:24: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Re: OT: Atrocities
 

I think the biggest problem is lack of real, quality information. Not the stuff the news media hands us, which is always slanted one way or the other, but real hard facts that cannot be disputed. Sure, pictures could be considered "hard" evidence, but we all know pictures can be manipulated to show whatever people want.

I'm not saying the pictures of torture and abuse are false, I'm just saying that we really have no way of knowing what is really happening over there in Iraq. No one does, except those who are over there, fighting for their lives.

For this reason, I think it is very difficult to form an opinion on matters such as these, when all of us here lack any quality information.

And here's a scary thought: What atrocities are occurring over there that we know nothing about?? Perhaps by the forces of both sides of the conflict??

[ May 01, 2004, 21:29: Message edited by: Renegade 13 ]

Re: OT: Atrocities
 

I'm personally far from idea that american soldiers are bloodthirsty slaughterers. They're simply human, who can fear, hate and want to avenge. But if your foe is animal you don't have to be animal too. Where is only way to prevent soldiers from being murderers - order.
Remember legions of Roman empire. They fought with wild tribes but they kept the high culture of war, and their famous discipline brought them victories, not superior "high-tech" weapon.
If US wants to achive some results in Iraq, your generals have to use this ancient experience.

[ May 01, 2004, 21:32: Message edited by: aiken ]

Re: OT: Atrocities
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Geneva convention ?
AFAIK the Geneva convention is not in effect in Iraq. The Geneva convention regulates (among other things) how to treat prisoners of war. Apart from Saddam himself (and maybe a select few others) there are no Prisoners of War in Iraq. Only detainees and terror suspects. The great GWB himself set the standard how to treat those when he set both the Geneva convention and US law aside with the Guantamo prisoners. Why should the prisoners in Iraq have a different and better status ? The blame goes all the way to the top.

Re: OT: Atrocities
 

Re: LordOffenders (the sock puppet ?) post.
This really fails to piss me off. Ignorant Idiots are everywhere. They are only dangerous when assembled in large numbers (like in Al Qaeda or the KKK) or when elected president http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: OT: Atrocities
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Exactly. We're all familiar with the concept of a TROLL here, aren't we? Doesn't the name strike you as a bit suspicious?

[ May 01, 2004, 22:49: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Re: OT: Atrocities
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Exactly. We're all familiar with the concept of a TROLL here, aren't we? Doesn't the name strike you as a bit suspicious? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh, I am quite familiar with the concept of trolling. I've read /. before you know http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

But, if you take a look at his member profile, he joined April 8th. So he's been lurking around for at least three weeks, and decided to post first on this topic. I would think that a troll would begin posting inflammatory stuff as soon as registration went through, not three weeks later.

I give the benefit of the doubt. Especially when I know a lot of otherwise very decent people who hold the same opinions about what should be done with the Iraqis, and just what corner of Hell they should burn in. All of it is nonsense to those of us who realize that Iraqis are people just like us, but oversimplification, revenge, jingoism, etc. get in the way sometimes for others.

Re: OT: Atrocities
 

Seeing this turned my stomach as well and made me thing of how, once again, the actions of a handful of fools can bring about such widespread ramifications. If they only knew.

Two thoughts on your Posts, gentlemen.

1. News agencies are reporting that the SSgt who ran the camp somewhat claimed something to the effect that he wasn't trained on the geneva convention. Hogwash. I remember during my service that was reinforced ad nauseum, from basic training to promotion tests. He should have known better.

2. I has been extermely common for armies (US and others) to informally characterize their foes as something a bit less than human... (i.e., "krauts" "japs" "gooks") [no offense to anyone intended]. It makes the enemy easier to deal with (kill). And now it's common to lump arabs into that Category. This subltle dehumanization helps opens the door for abuses such as this.

Re: OT: Atrocities
 

Well, I just read that the American's aren't the only ones now charged with prisoner abuse. Some rogue members of the British Army absolutely went nutso on some prisoners in Basra. Beaten within inches of their life, then thrown from a moving truck, Last known fate unknown. When found out, the officer in charge told them to get rid of the evidence! Not to stop but to make sure they aren't found out.
at www.themirror.co.uk
I'd like to think that I'd be a fair and just person, but dealing with that level of danger and frustration day in and day out I could probably just as easily go medieval on some poor soul.
Why wasn't Al Jazzera reporting on items like this when it was going on ALL THE TIME

Re: OT: Atrocities
 

why register to just say that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

careful trolls about

Re: OT: Atrocities
 

After seeing the footage and such, I was shocked and appauled at what they were doing. Who in their right mind would for an instant believe that that kind of miss conduct would be acceptable?

They desearve to be court marsheled and sent to Lebonsworth for a good long while for that. Terrorist or not, POW or not, NO ONE has the right to do what they did to another human being. Totaly inapproprate.

EDIT:

I must also say that what the Iraqis are doing to the people they kidnap is most distrubing, far more so than what has happened in the prisons. I feel that the only thing people like that understand is force. Unfortunetly far to many inocent victims must pay the price for ending the violence. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[ May 03, 2004, 22:27: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Re: OT: Atrocities
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sorry for this completely OT twist to this OT post, but I found this amusing. Not that the on-topic OT is amusing in the least, but I'll take the humor wherever I find it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Back on topic (well, kinda):

Discipline--there are three kinds. Self-discipline, preventative external discipline, and reactive external discipline. The more of the first you have, the less of the second and third you'll need. Originally, the first type held society together. Now, most Americans (and many non-Americans, it seems) have little to no self-discipline. For a time, the second type held society together; then those accustomed to allowing themselves to do what they wish rationalized away preventative discipline (i.e., structure, standards, expected norms). Now, even reactive discipline (i.e., punishment) has been greatly weakened. Prison time is a thing of the past if you have a glib enough lawyer; you need psychiatric evaluation and counselling and "reform," not punishment, because you can't really be held responsible.

If those guilty of prisoner abuse in Iraq had self-discipline, they would not have done this. If their commanders had enough preventative discipline, these men would not have dared to do this. As it is, we now have to see the reactive discipline.

Thus endeth the sermonette for the evening. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: OT: Atrocities
 

Do you get the feeling that the Military Intelligence personnel think their accountable to no one. I like that excuse that they weren't trained in Geneva Convention protocols. Neither was I and I know what's right and wrong. Hope this isn't the tip of the iceberg.

Re: OT: Atrocities
 

I'm just curious to why they would be taping these things in the first place? In the entire history of video cameras - secret tapes with things you wouldn't want other people to see - always get found... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: OT: Atrocities
 

It's to easy to hate.

Re: OT: Atrocities
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is in fact the tip of the iceberg.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,118958,00.html

Also, I was listening to the 'Diane Rheim Show' on NPR this morning and they had an investigative reporter who is following this as a guest. He said that people he has talked to are indicating a huge mass of material yet to come out. And not only have they got pictures, they've got video tapes of people being abused.

Re: OT: Atrocities
 

A summary
This goes all the way to the top. Trying to pin this on a few rank and file soldiers won't fool anyone.
When are you guys going to wake up ?