AIC Mod in finite vs. infinite resource settings
 

I griped a while ago about how high maintenance costs were in AIC, and how it was killing my economy (literally, 20 warships - 10 frigates, 10 destroyers - were enough to set my income to the negative). This game was with infinite resources. I quit that game cuz i got sick of it. I started a new one on finite resources, and notice that the maintenance costs are MUUUCCHHH lower. Has anyone else noticed this? what is the logic behind this? i don't mean the obvious answer that infinite resource games have more resources... that much i realize. but the damper that maintenance put on my economy rendered my first AIC game (infinite resources) unplayable, while my finite resources game I have going now is nowhere near as bad. why? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

-Tim

[ May 13, 2004, 20:14: Message edited by: Yimboli ]

Re: AIC Mod in finite vs. infinite resource settings
 

nevermind. i just made my first attack ship, and maintenance was over 1000 minerals. this is practically unplayable... thus, I guess I shall stop playing AIC. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[ June 08, 2004, 15:23: Message edited by: Yimboli ]

Re: AIC Mod in finite vs. infinite resource settings
 

I am sorry that AIC is not for you and that you do not think a level 3 AIC Destroyer should cost 1000. Your AIC home world alone gives you about 15000 minerals and with mineral extraction right from the start and you should be able to get another destroyer or more then several smaller combat missile ships for every 2 or three Mining Facilities as long as you develope your Planets then your economy will develope and then you can aford a large fleet.

I like this about AIC there is a great deal that goes into infurstruture first but I can see how this can be frustrating. You really should play TDM it is a MOD with just a very basic economy and the AI is up to date.

I would like to say this. I just built a level two Destroyer in se4 with the STOCK Abidon. With only 2 level III Shields and Emisive Armors both at level 2 and 2 Phychic Projecters with lvl 2 Combat Sensor and ECM and it cost 1600 maintenance EACH, thats about 500 more maintenance then AIC. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Tim what do you think a Destroyers maintenance cost should be?

[ May 14, 2004, 12:28: Message edited by: QBrigid ]

Re: AIC Mod in finite vs. infinite resource settings
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Great post Oleg, wish I thought of posting this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Another idea - if maintanence is such a problem, lower default value in settings.txt from 100% to 90 or 80. That should cure it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif It won't be the same AIC mod, but what a heck, it is YOUR game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

As to finite resources, don't play it untill you master infinite. Even then, always chose Religious and build Nature Shrine III ASAP.

Re: AIC Mod in finite vs. infinite resource settings
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You probably shouldnt mess with the settings file to much if you lower the maintenance settings below 90% you will probably break all the Crystalline Races and after you upgrade to the Last engineering section component or build the Systems Maintenance Facility for all players you will probably end up with negitive maintence numbers in a lot of of places and break the game whole game.
AIC maintenance percentages are very complexed and I know Alneyan and JLS put a lot of thought into the Race Maintenance Characteristic option.
It is better to master infinite resource games before you satart a finite game.
When playing a FINITE AIC game Citys and LARGE Cities are extremely important and you will always run out of RADS energy first, followed by Minerals. The food useually Last for ever. The AIC AI will not melt down for a long time (if ever) so be on your guard.

Oleg is right on with MP* multiplayer game option = Increased Research and resource facilities for a faster Multiplayer build up and expantion.

Most of us also learn and play at higher AI bonus levels in our solo games.
O1* (starting option one)RECOMENDED FOR NEW PLAYERS that gives JUST you a larger home world and Colonys = more EVERYTHING including research and intel.

02* (starting option 2) RECOMENDED FOR NEW PLAYERS this gives JUST you 150% more Resources, this will boost anybodys economy enough to take even the best placed AI Player. (O2* option is not recommended for Finite games because it wastes your resources faster then you can use or store them)

HINT what ever start option (even none of the above) you play you can have tons of smaller missile ships and out match the AI (fleet to fleet) most of the time early in the game even without building one mineral facility if that is your only goal http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
I fo i remeber correctly only the hive AI race to destroyers and light cruisers early in a LOW AI bonus game.

I hope this helps.
GLV

[ May 14, 2004, 16:41: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

Re: AIC Mod in finite vs. infinite resource settings
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure, but if he is really desperate... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
90% instead of 100% should almost half the maintanence if I am not mistaken.

Re: AIC Mod in finite vs. infinite resource settings
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not so. many AIs like to use fighters en mass and research them quickly. Small ships with missiles can not have much of PD and will be chewed up with small if any damage to enemy. Well, it normally happens to my ships http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: AIC Mod in finite vs. infinite resource settings
 

Sure. But taking o1 and o2 start options in the game will almost double your resources and research.

We dont need to HARD change the setting file and take a chance on breaking the mod. And you still have the resources to have more ships then a 10% hard maintanence reducion change will give you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif


Sorry about the Last post " of of places and break the game whole game"
(Wow I even slur my typing after a few cocktails) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ May 14, 2004, 17:20: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

Re: AIC Mod in finite vs. infinite resource settings
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A few low cost escorts with point defence will remedy this. Unless you are talking about taking out an AI Players home world or large colony early, then ye I would research fighters like the AI did and launch them on small transports. Nevermind that is not enough, it takes a lot to glass the AI home world.
But it will help at early warp point defences http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

When playing against the AI at low AI bonus I can easily out research all of them (maybe not the eee but they tend to be freindly) even when i dont take any start options I usually win.

[ May 14, 2004, 17:23: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

Re: AIC Mod in finite vs. infinite resource settings
 

It's been awhile since I"ve played teh AIC mod, but when I'm running low on resources in other mods, I suddenly increase my research on extraction and storage, followed by whatever it is that you need to get the 10% bonus to production. Then, if I'm really low or in the negative balance, I either mothball ships or scrap old ones. Then once things pick up, I'll take the ships out of mothball status.

[ May 14, 2004, 18:15: Message edited by: gregebowman ]

Re: AIC Mod in finite vs. infinite resource settings
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't think you can get negative maintenance values from combining just base maintenance rate setting and maintenance lowering abilities. Negative maintenance has to be acquired from having abilities on a ship that total more than 100% reduction. Maintenance value is not quite just gotten through pure addition. Look at the stock game, for an example. Base maintenance rate is 25%, bases have 50% maintenance reduction. This does not lead to -25% maintenance for bases, but 12.5%.

[ May 14, 2004, 21:00: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: AIC Mod in finite vs. infinite resource settings
 

wow, thanks for all the info. perhaps i'm selling the mod short. I think i found one of my problems: i checked the scores and saw that most races still only had 1 planet, while I had 16. This is partly due to the fact that the first planet i colonized had ruins that gave me ice colonization (!!!!), so i went on a colonizing crusade. My construction queues were being quite a nuisance. I think I need to slow down a bit and stick to my home system for a while. Any suggestions?

I turned computer control off for a turn to check out the other races, and they are having the exact same maintenance problems I am... which is very odd because i distinctly remember the computer's maintenance cost per ship being MUCH lower than my maintenance cost per ship in the infinite resources game. i guess i checked a computer's starliner and thought it was a frigate or something...

so I pose this question to AIC veterans: when should I colonize my first additional planet? also, in infinite resource games, what is the point of making a cities when a mineral extraction facility puts out so much more minerals?

one question directed to QBrigid:
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">could you elaborate on that? 2 or three mining facilities will empty a planet in a few turns, hardly supporting maintenance for a 1000 min destroyer plus a few smaller combat ships. economy developing? I think that means building colonial settlements then towns then cities, etc. etc., is that what you mean?

thanks for all the info, I'm gonna give it another shot http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

-Tim

[ May 14, 2004, 23:46: Message edited by: Yimboli ]

Re: AIC Mod in finite vs. infinite resource settings
 

Yimboli, do not play Temporal if you have this problem. Pick up MP* option for the empire. That will give you better mining facilities. And ship more people around to build cities faster !!!

I sometimes have the problem with maintenance but only if my home system is poor.

Re: AIC Mod in finite vs. infinite resource settings
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Great post Oleg, wish I thought of posting this.

[ May 14, 2004, 12:41: Message edited by: QBrigid ]

Re: AIC Mod in finite vs. infinite resource settings
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How do you fare in non-conected games ? i find it quite difficult sometimes. AI is much more focused, no more fleets sitting around ally planet half-way accross galaxy. With only few systems available, AI can send waves after waves... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

in Last game Iwas foolish enough to open WP to cryslonites at about the same time terrans come aftr me. Two wars were totally unsustainable.

Also, how do you manage anti-fighter escorts in simultaneus turn battles ? It usully becomes so messy... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: AIC Mod in finite vs. infinite resource settings
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Very odd. AI should be more robust. Are you sure AIs are "real" AI, not empires generated with HP* option under computer control ? Did you load them manually ?

Re: AIC Mod in finite vs. infinite resource settings
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">But only if are interested in mineral only and talking about planet with 100%

Cities produce other resurses too and give a lot of research/intelligence points. Also storage and cargo space.

Half of cities minerals comes from "solar wind" so in case of 50% planet city in fact operates like on 75% ! Of course opposite effect shows up on >100% planets which you should indeed strip mine. But given my rotten luck I normally must squeeze most from the typical 10/20/15 planet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: AIC Mod in finite vs. infinite resource settings
 

yes, i loaded them manually... is that a bad idea? i wanted to control the number of players, so that is my only option. i didn't see anything in the readme about this so i didnt think twice about loading them manually. actually, when i said in the other post that the AI players had 1 planet, that was only true with a majority of them. i recall that one had 11 planets and a couple had 4 or 5. whats wrong with loading them manually?

-tim

[ May 15, 2004, 08:18: Message edited by: Yimboli ]

Re: AIC Mod in finite vs. infinite resource settings
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nothing wrong per se, but you should take cate to load empires generated for AI - with AI* option on. JLS included "human" empires files too, those with HP* trait. They will not work AT ALL under AI control !!! Just check carefully what are the race traits empires have. May be everythink is correct and I rised false alarm.

I usually do not load empires manually - nice to have more unknowns in the game ! To regulate how many players you want, edit settings.txt file. It has number of random empires generated for "low", "medium" and "high" numbers. You can not use the same number for min and max though but difference in 1 is OK. For example if you want 9 AIs, set numbers for "high" 9 and 10 and you will get 9 or 10 random AIs if chose "high" option.

Re: AIC Mod in finite vs. infinite resource settings
 

you were right - i checked the empire traits and the AI had the *HP* option... probably not a good idea http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

thanks for that settings.txt bit, thats realy helpful!!

-Tim

Re: AIC Mod in finite vs. infinite resource settings
 

Originally posted by Yimboli:

one question directed to QBrigid:

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">QB, if I may...

When playing a FINITE GAME {se4 quad start option} you are correct that a Planet will become void of its resource value in that Finite game eventually when any Resource Extraction Facility is constructed on that planet.

However, this will take much time in game turns to achieve in a Finite game if you construct your Resource Extraction Facilities on the appropriate Planets.

For example:

With an AIC Mineral Extraction Facility at a extraction rate of an unmodified := Mines 450 minerals each month. With the average Mineral Rich Planet hosting about 500 kilo tons and best of Planets and Asteroids also to include the Home World boasting as much as ONE MILLION TONS of any a one or more Planet Resource reserves. You can see that only (3) facilities with the extraction of 450 tons each = totaling 1350 tons of Minerals per month at that Planet can Last for 370 plus turns from a 500kt Planet and with any Mega ton reserve resource Planets or (FQM) Asteroids may extend its/your income to perhaps the entire game, if managed well. With Planet Engineering and Utilizations Technologies the techniques offered in these fields WILL make the endeavor probable for the entire game.
(Depending on your choices made, The Home World may be excluded and may become (partially) vacant with one or two of its resources produced in that Finite game )
With all its required methods of play, it can become very difficult to win when PLAYING FINITE. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

= = =

However, the defaulted game start. Players will play with Infinite Resource Reserves and there is only a few possibilities of loosing a Planets resource value and some are mentioned below.

With se4. Your journey will be dictated by your desired game style, that game start with all its continuing events. For the most part, you will be challenged both in Solitaire or Multi-Player on all aspects of game play http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ May 16, 2004, 21:04: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AIC Mod in finite vs. infinite resource settings
 

i'm a bit lost where you said that some planets, other than your homeworld, can boast as much as 1 million tons of a resource. On all of the planets that are generated when I play, only 1e3 tons are available. The only planet with anything other than 1000 tons is the homeworld, which has 1e6 tons of everything.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

-Tim

Re: AIC Mod in finite vs. infinite resource settings
 

I do not have a Version of 4.11 AIC handy; however the added (1 mt) extra planets and Asteroids may just be in my beta that I referenced in the earlier post.

Nevertheless, if you wish. Please start a v4.11 FINITE test game with a very large Galaxies or Centurion Ruin Map. Then select the Player from existing named {--System Test} then set low amount of AI Players then begin.
Within this test game you will see all Systems, with the (f4) Planets menu you should notice a more then fair amount of planets exceeding 400 kilo tons (25-30%) and with 50% of the Planets exceeding 300 Kilo Tons.
Asteroids should exceed 50% or above 400 kilo tons with many close to that 1 million ton mark of any one given resource.

All Home Worlds will start every Finite game with ONE million tons of each resource.

~TIP~ In any Finite game it may be wise not to have a cramped game and to consider setting the amount of Computer Players (one setting lower) then you normally would for that Quad size/System count http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ May 16, 2004, 22:06: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AIC Mod in finite vs. infinite resource settings
 

oh, i think i may have realized the problem. I generated the maps with the finite setting DESELECTED, and then saved them to files. I use the same maps often cuz i like to generate til i get one i want, so maybe setting the game to finite and loading a map created while finite was not selected is what messed it up... i gtg now but i'll try it and get back to ya. thx for the quick response JLS http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

-Tim

Re: AIC Mod in finite vs. infinite resource settings
 

Yes, that can happen on some regenerated Finite maps.

I also save my best Home System start setup maps for another random game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Re: AIC Mod in finite vs. infinite resource settings
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Many of us do play as Oleg recomends:
" nice to have more unknowns in the game ! To regulate how many players you want, edit settings.txt file. It has number of random empires generated for "low", "medium" and "high" numbers "~"

=- - -

However, for a manual selected AI Player game.

Within the AIC Extras Folder contains all the AI players Empire files and some Starliner images along with a few other extras and game play options http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

You will find all the AIC AI Players EMPIRE FILES in this folder to aid in your choise for AI players manually select for your game.
from: Se4/AICampaign/Extras/Empires AI-Only

You may COPY and PASTE any or all AI players to this directory:
to: Se4/AICampaign/Empires

- - -

Yimboli thanks for the heads up.
For ease of operation. I will post an (auto placement AI Player ZIP file) for the above on the AIC web page http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
=====
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As Grand Lord Vito posted, Cities are of immense value in a Finite game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif


In addition, as Oleg Posts in a non-Finite resource game start style. The cities become a very productive option on low yield resource value planets, where Planet values loss has occurred as a result of Combat turnover, Natural random Disasters even the over zealous Resource Miner.

= = =

Production, Intel and Research contributions are but only a few mentioned, Urban Cities also possess other fine attributes... Large Cities can be of great benefit in all styles of play towards the End Game.

Cities will really rake in all types of Imperial Credits, when Cities are built on the potential gold mines located within the Binary or Trinary Systems picturesque and sandy beach vaction Resorts http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ May 16, 2004, 16:24: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AIC Mod in finite vs. infinite resource settings
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ouch!!! That had to hurt.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ May 16, 2004, 13:07: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AIC Mod in finite vs. infinite resource settings
 

ah-hah! that was it! thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

-Tim

Re: AIC Mod in finite vs. infinite resource settings
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Agreed Oleg, this should not hurt http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

There is a few economic changes for the next AIC Version; primarily due to the new strengths that se4 v1.91 will offer the se4 AI overall.

For one: In the past with AIC, expansion for both the Human and AI Player is based on the past ease to trade Colonization techs with the se4 AI, and now with se4 v1.91 it is near impossible for some Human Players to cut the deal with the AI. As it still happens, with v4.11 the AI still is compensated for Human Colonization Trades and the Human Player may fall behind rapidly - since now the Solo Human Players may have difficulties with AI Trades.

There are many other fine strengths added for the AI from se4 v1.91; that can and will be an advantage for the 4.5+ AIC AI Players and the Human Player will need to be rebalanced upward to compete. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[ May 19, 2004, 21:53: Message edited by: JLS ]