Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous game
 

If I give a "close WP" order to a ship, does other ships move before or after the warp point will be closed ?

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous game
 

If the ship is on the warppoint already, I think it might be closed on day 1.
Otherwise it will be closed when you arrive.

If you tell the ship to move around you can give your fleet time to get through before it closes.

If you time things exceptionally well, you could even have one ship open a warppoint, send the fleet through and then close the point with a second ship during a single simultaneous move turn.

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous game
 

Ok, thanks for these interesting infos...
If it doesn't work, I'll send you my lawyer...

[ May 18, 2004, 07:06: Message edited by: trooper ]

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous game
 

I think you must be on the warp point at the beginning of the turn or you can't close it (in simultaneous game).

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous game
 

Yes, close warppoint only works when starting on that warppoint - open warppoint and create planet, on the other hand, work in the middle of movement.

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous game
 

It is possible to close a new warp point, if the closer is already sitting on Warp Point.

In this way, you can order the ship to "Move to x,x" and "Close Warp Point" and it should move to the destination and close the warp point that is there.

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe not. I'm in a PBW game right now where I had a WP closer on a WP with and enemy fleet entering the system. I gave the closer orders to warp, close WP, and continue on to the second destination, all the while being shadowed by a small protective fleet. The next turn I almost retched upon seeing that the closer warped and then cleared its orders! I had the distinct "joy" of seeing my expensive Stellar Manip ship sitting on an open WP (with the enemy FLEET on the other side of WP) with my protective fleet 5 moves away (where the closer should have been).

My only hope now is that stellar manipulations occur before physical movement in simultaneous games. God I miss normal turns.

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous game
 

I don't know. Maybe it doesn't work when warping?
I am currently using this order in a pre-Gold game, where I had ordered it to do the rounds of closing 5 different warp points thru different systems. as working fine.

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous game
 

In simultaneous movement Stellar Manipulation (sm) happens first in a movement impulse so if you don't move your ship it will close or open before anything else happens.

If you move before you open or create a planet the opening will happen first on the particular movement impulse.

You can have a warp closer close and THEN move to another spot - but it won't move to a warp point (wp) and close - even if it is sitting on wp and the sm button is activated as an option.

With a Matter Gravity Sphere (MGS), on the other hand, if the sm button is activated (when the ship is on a planet or asteroid belt) you can move and then create a planet.

Additionally you can have a warp opener move and then open.

The only restriction for sm in the middle of a turn is that you have to have a movement point left so you can't do these at the end of your movement.

The same rules apply for the other stellar sm components. So to destroy a star you can move off of a star and then back onto to it to destroy it.

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. I do know for a fact that you can order a ship to move then create planet and it will do the movement order first and then create planet over the asteroid it is now on top of.

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous game
 

That's right - you can do that to destroy a star as well. . . and if you don't initiate any movement it will happen instantly. You can delay these actions by moving, however, so they don't happen immediately, and if you do it will be the first thing that happens on the particular movement day that you order the action to happen.

For creating a planet it probably doesn't matter what day it's created - I can think of scenarios, however, where you might want to delay the destruction of a star.

This also applies to closing warp points - by delaying the closing you can warp into a system, attack it, come back through, and then close that warp point. The warp point had to be there, though - you can't close a warp point that didn't exist at the beginning of the turn, the game doesn't even give you the option.

Additionally the only way to be able to order the closing of a warp point is by sitting on a warp point and for whatever reason you can't move from one warp point to close another warp point - unlike, for instance, creating planets or destroying stars.

So . . . your warp closer has to be sitting on the warp point it is closing for it to close the point.

Anyway opening a warp point is a lot easier since you don't have to be sitting on a planet, a star, or a warp point to initiate an opening.

[ May 18, 2004, 08:54: Message edited by: rextorres ]

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous game
 

By the way, when you destroy a star and/or create a back hole, your stellar manip ship must be right on the star ? so it's lost in action, I suppose....

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous game
 

You can delay the closing of a warp point however there are a few things that must be.

1) The warp point must be created.
2) The ship to close the warp point must be at that WP.

As long as that it true you can delay the close of the WP by simply ordering you WP closing ship to first move away then back then order close WP. Since your ship is at the WP your want to close, it will accept the orders.

Ex. The WP and your ship are at 5,5 your ship has 10 movements, then give the order move to 5,10 then move 5,5 then close WP.

This would give any fleet you have on the other side of the WP time to move and travel through before it was closed.

Ed

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

Heh wise old hands,
are we sure star killers go off immeadiately in sim pbw movement?
Do they do it on day 1? or on the first turn of their movement?

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

It seems to depend Joachim. I have seen Stellar Destroyers go off on day 3 or 4, while others went off at once; speed did not appear to have any effect, but I am not sure of that.

Sentry+Star Destruction does trigger the destruction as soon as an enemy vessel enters the system (it needs to survive one day however); if there are already enemy vessels in the system, the Sentried Destruction will happen on day 1.

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

Sentried star destroyers... Would be a wonderful trap http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous game
 

Too bad they go off for anything. Including that hull-with-engines escort sent explicitly to trigger it before the main fleet comes through.

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

Hehe... Use it to make a black hole http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

Well, that's what the mines on the warp point are for. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif That way you lose at least two LCs.

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

Heh... Can a destroyed star be destroyed again, or do you have to recreate it?

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

You have to re-create it.

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

They only go off *if* the escort makes it to the system successfully. If the escort is destroyed at a wormhole battle, the sentry order will not go off. There are, of course, complications with this: putting an armada in a system that is to be destroyed is self-defeating, and Warp Openers can ruin your day.

There is no drawback involved if the enemy is already in the system though, unless perhaps if they were to engage their cloak (but then, you should really have sensors to detect them).

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

You could have a big thingie of sats, or mines in the area. You could also have the ship on a move to certain position, then move back and destroy the sun. That way the escorts go through, then the rest of the fleet, then the sun goes boom http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

So we dont actually know when / how they go off?

This is a little irritating as the FAQ is very wrong on this, and it has cost me dearly.

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

I am currently working on the final FAQ revision. If you'd be more specific on what is wrong (and what would make it correct), I'd fix it.

Sometimes people submit items for the FAQ that aren't quite right, unintentionally, I am sure. It isn't feasable for me to test everything so it is important for errors to be pointed out. It is also important to be very sure one is correct before submitting an entry.

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

Its easy to test something, using the cheats.

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

You're hired! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

Imho, which is based on experience, all bad..

If you have a stellar maipulation capable ship start a turn on a "sector" wherein lies an acceptable target then well, it will be allowed to perform any
stellar manipulations it is capable of wherenver and whenever you manage to tell it to do so.

The key imho is starting out on a spot that contains the thing you desire to manipulate. Not the very thing necessarily but anything that allows you to push the stellar manipulation button.

Please note that you will NOT be able to close or open warp points if the ship you give the orders to starts in a system with more than 1 WP. I've found that this is due to it's asking for a specific taget in that case and wlell... If your specific target isnt one of those well.. you lose. I am pretty sure that in this case it will close/open the "topmost" WP and that might not be what you desire..

Note, I haven't had the chance to test this yet in a real game setting as wellllll.. I am always too busy and cautious to waste time checking stuff in games for mere forum bug purposes.

At any rate I have found that if you give a warp opener (or shutter) which starts at a warp point you want open (or shut I guess) and give it first the move to X sector and then close WP in X sector it will close said WP.

If you give it the order to stellar manipulate first and then to move it'll shut (or open) the point it starts in and then move and do nothing..

Be careful on your timing.

Ie if you have move 12 warp closers which will require 2 mps, for some reason to move to their desired closing space then only ships with a move of 12 or greater will get two moves before the point is closed and ships with less than 6 or so moves (gets a bit wierd here comparing stuff with such large differences but..) will get no moves before this happens. Ships with 6 moves will get one move before.


IE to explain again...If your WP closer is faster(in MP's) than a fleet (in the same sector..) which you wish to slip into a given system (which you are closing access to, you hope..) then if you done give a move to here, move to there order of sufficient length to the closer ship/fleet then your fleet will find a closed WP when it gets the chance to move.

Another IE..

Say you have a fleet with move of 6, say you have a WP closer with a move of 12. IF your WP closer moves and is going to close the WP on it's 12th MP then you have until said 6 MP fleets 5th move to utilize the open warp point.

I can't speak of WP/star things on sentry. Never been close enough to challenge their destruction, or my systems have been protected and well...

So basically I have learned or at least think its true that.. As long as you start on a sector with the capabilities you desire for stellar manipulation then if you have sufficient MP's to get to the spot where you "Actually" want to do said manipulation then it's fair game. Otherwise, no.

My question about this is that if you have a stellar ship and it does move its full 12 or whatever, does it still retain the capability (ie 0 months usage time) to do manipulations or does it have to wait?

Yes I drink and post. Sue me.

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

You must have a movement point in order to use stellar manipulation.

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

See my latest post in the Updated the FAQ thread.

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

you mean i didn't need to send that email to insure you detonated http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif then i must thank the party for the erroneous info in the FAQ.

ok on a more serious note, based on what i heard once in another game, and being hit by a star destroyer, they appear to go off at the end of day 2. A speed 10 ship can make one move before being vaporized.

Joachim don't worry this info won't compromise anything for me, already compensated for it.

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

I ask again, what is the wrong info in the FAQ?

The only thing I can possibly find that might be applicable here is:


I'm pretty sure that this works as stated.

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

I think Joachim did not get impression it was possible for someone to escape a system before star blew. As a result he wasted a star destroyer for nothing.

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

From the FAQ:

14.1 Simultaneous.
14.1.1 Stellar manipulation happens before ship movement in simultaneous

Nope. 100 enemy ships flew away before the star destroyer killed the system, and the star killer was a much faster ship.

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

So what was the entire sequence of events. By inferring here, it seems that this is what happened:

- The game was simultaneous movement.

- Player A had a star destroyer sitting on a star in a system with the orders: Sentry, destroy star

- Player B entered system and exited system with &gt; 100 ships. Not sure if he just peek-a-boo'd in and out the same warp point or if he went in one warp point and out another.

- Player A's star destroyer was faster, by movement speed, than all 100 of player B's ships.

- At some later "day" during the turn after player B's ships exited the system, the star destroyer destroyed the star.

edit: Based on recently discovered information about ship orders/movement/repairs/etc being influenced by ship ID number, this may have affected the particular event in question.

Is this correct and is there any other pertinent information?

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

100 ships already there, warped away, came back much later. From the move log it seems that it took at least 4 days to blow the star. The star destroyer orders were only kill star, not sentry.

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

What was the speed of the star destroyer? If the enemey ships had warped out already by day four they must have been pretty fast themselves. Are you sure your star destroyer was faster?

What was the various player numbers? If your star destroyer and his fleet had the same speed and he came first in the player number list than you that might explain why his ships got away. If they both executed orders on the same day, and he was a lower number player his ships would have moved before your ship blew up, even though it happened on the same day, right?

Is this a PBW game? I could take a look at it.

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

The speed of the star destroyer I don't know, it wasn't mine. though i thought it was slow from previous turn (speed 10?) anyway my ships where sitting on the warp point at beginning of turn, his on the star.

On day 2 my ships warped out a stately speed of 11, 4 guard ships he sent ahead of destroyer moved also, at speed 10.
day 3 no movement day 4 no movement (his ships), but i think star blew end of day 2 or beginning of day 3. i base this on what i also saw in another game, though in both cases i was listed ahead player with star destroyer.
the game in question is Atull.
my guess is the FAQ info is based on what ppl were initially experiencing with first lvls of SM tech. i wouldn't be surprised if blackhole creator and nebulae destroyers have the same 2 day delay.

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

Someone reported that you need to have at least 1 movement point to do SM. I haven't tested this but I am a little dubious that this is 100% correct. I believe some SM components will work on bases, which have no movement. I do however think that there is some hook in the SM routine which ties it to the movement schedule, which may be what was experienced here. Ship ID and player # both affect the exact sequence here. Exactly when Bases execute their SM components is somewhat of a mystery; although the logical assumption would be either the first day or last day of the turn due to its zero movement speed.

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

i looked in the game, his star destroyer may have been speed 12. and it has potential of 18, but as i said it didn't appear to move that fast. i know warp openings and closings occur at beginning of turn. As i mentioned, he had 4 ships of his own that moved before the bang, all ship movement occured on day 2.

is it possible that certain SM actions occur before or after ship movement. Because if its strictitally player order, i should have been able to slip through some warps before they where ever closed if thats the case. it hasn't happened

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

The information on when stellar manipulation happens currently in the FAQ is incorrect. I have tested it pretty thoroughly and posted my results in the Updated the FAQ thread a little while back. Here are the most relevant parts to this discussion:

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

Douglas, that's a lot of good information. Assuming it is all correct though it doesn't explain the situation that happened here. In this case the star destroyer was faster than the ships sitting on the warp point, so it should have destructed on an earlier day than the fleeing ships moved and Ship ID shouldn't have been a factor.

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

Unless I missed something, all ships involved are reported as moving at speeds from 10 to 18, and the movements in question were all the very first movement of the turn for each ship. Speeds 10 through 18 all get their first movement on day 2, so all movement happened on the same day (day 2) and ship ID determined order.

Edit: The statement about speed 18 getting its first move on day 2 assumes that such a high speed was attained by emergency propulsion, which doesn't kick in until the ship gets its first movement at normal speed and executes the use component order. If a mod allows building ships with a normal movement rate of 18, such a ship would move on day 1.

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

Why would a ship with a speed of 10 get to move on day 2? Oh wait. Day zero is the first day. Is that it?

In this particular case the star destroyer had a potential move of 18, but as you say five of that was emergency propulsion. I'll assume you are correct about the way emergency propulsion delays to the first normal day of movement, you've been right about everything else. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif But in this case it doesn't really matter because the emergency propulsion comp had been expended already on a previous turn. So the fastest that ship was going to move on this turn was 13.

But shouldn't a ship with move of 13 still move the day before (on day 1, the second day) the ship with move of 10 (On day 2, the third day)?

EDIT: I can confirm through testing you are correct. Speed 10 ships and speed 13 ships both move on day 2. And speed 18 ships move on day 1. I just don't understand it completely.

So here we have found a concrete and significant reason to hang on to those old early game escorts and frigates. Retrofit them with the fastest engines you can and stick them in your important fleets so they will have a chance to escape the star destroyer traps late in the game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

The gamey part here really isn't that some fleets can escape, it's that only those with an arbitraty lower ID# ship in them can. It's actually not all that extraordinary to think a fleet sitting on a warp point at the periphery of a system could escape being caught in the blast of the sun blowing up.

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

Gamey is one way of phrasing it. It is a clear and problematic bug, it is the same as the old firing by player number problem.

As for "escaping" the supernova, unlikely, it blasts out at the speed of light.

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

No it doesn't. Fast, yes, but not light speed.

EDIT: Although there would be a component of gamma rays that wouldn't be too nice.

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

Well, we are getting into a discussion about what it realistic or not in game terms, which is problematic. But if you assume that the warp points are at least as far from the sun as Pluto then even traveling at light speed the shockwave would take over 5 hours to reach the warp point. It's not unreasonable to say that it wouldn't take that long for a fleet to enter a warp point.

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

Yep, lets stay on topic.

The ship in the example was a very early build, but I assume that the escaping fleet must have had a ship built earlier? Does this mean we should keep our earliest ships and retro them up to stay with our important fleets so that the entire fleet moves first on in that critical second day everyone moves stage?

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

I wonder if retrofitting changes the ship's ID.

Re: Stellar manip and movement in simultaneous gam
 

ok after blowinig up about a 4 suns. ship id# is key, and since i know the ship joachim used was origially built before most if not all ships in the event in question, by both parties, retrofitting changes ship id#
so if its any consolation Joachim, i would have the same problem, though in this case i had reason to believe i could escape, hence the email mentioning i thougt you where bluffing, how was i to know you were not aware of id thing i didn't.