OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

Today I saw this film in the cinema. And good god I'm so full of impressions that I must express them somewhere and to somebody.

To clear the point: I'm not a Christian, quite the contrary - I'm atheist, but this day is the Last day in my life when I where able to blame Christianity or Jesus. Because I'm understand this religion now, its base and philosophy. And my conviction that his sacrifice was useless is even stronger now.

Many thanks to Mr. Gibson for this outstanding creation, I think every man considering himself as a christian must see this film, because visit to chirch is habit, not faith.
Every counter-christian considering himself objective must see this film in order to TRY to understand other point of view.

And Last one: if you noticed just blood and violence in this movie and missed Love - you don't understand what is love (I saw people, laughing in the middle of the film, and people who spoke "That the horrible bloody triller", so don't be surprised by my tone).

Sorry for spelling.

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

If your recommending it, then perhaps I should consider seeing it. I just don't know.

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

Sacrifice is useless? Which is still around again, the Roman Empire or Christianity?

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In spite of 2000 years of Christianity, the same people who crucified him still rule our world. He would be in a great sorrow if he known that.

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

To this day i had an other opinion of this movie. I'll see him too, to understand the polarisation between so many opinions in this issue.

I have BIG respect on every man or woman who ever changed the world in so impressive manner such Jesus did. But too many sects of "Christianity" do not propagate what Jesus wanted. Their interpretations of his "will" and his "intetions" are very arbitrary. I can agree with very few of them, but in most cases i do not.

I'm atheist, but i understand why so many people need religion to live in this world. Religion and
"view of the world" should be an private issue of every person. We have only the right to discuss the acceptance of a "religion" if the doctrin of this philosophy is not compatible with our Laws or with our understanding of "human rights".

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Roman Empire, masquerading as Christianity. It all started with Emperor Constantine wanting to integrate religion into his political toolkit, but it continued even after the original political authority, the Emperor, was gone. This is most obvious with Roman Catholicism since they have a single 'head' of their church comparable to the Emperor, but nearly all of the other sects are also political parties using religion to justify their authority, not religions. Only a few 'odd' movements on the fringes like the Quakers could really be called religious.

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

The movie is 95% pure torture. I think it is a rather bad movie, because it has nothing else to offer than just that.
Concerning your admiration for Jesus: he wasn't the only one to make that "sacrifice" as it is called.
A lot of people were tortured to death in those days, or did you think the tools of torture were invented solely for him?
The only thing that makes Jesus stand out from the other people that were tortured to death is the rumours that he resurrected, which I do not believe, of course.

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

I think this movie was going over the Last 12 hours of his life, to show what was done to him and what was endured, I am a "christian" however I have yet to see this movie, I find it difficalt to hold my anger in when I think about what Man can/will do to Man http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

I actually recommend this film to any and all people studying film. Congrats to Mel for making the second worst film in history. First being Gigli and Third being Plan Nine from Outer Space.

This is what I consider and shock'n'awe film. It's aim is to put up so much brutal and inhuman things on to the screen that the audience cringe and vomits from all points of entry and egress.

I too am an Athiest, however, I understand the point Jesus was making and the whole idea behind that entire biblical story. Sadly, Mel didn't do that. What Mel did was try to turn the bible into a film that points and screams "Look Look! Be a christian because of the way he died!"

I wholly agree man can be cruel to other men.

But the purpose of this film isn't to do that. It's to get christians frothing at the mouth and get them going door to door converting.

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

Probably I was too categorical with my "must see" statement. I can bet that 80% of audience felt nothing but anger and loathing then watched this film. They saw only 1-st layer of the story, but totally missed the rest. That's not surprizing for me.

So sad that where so few people who still able to compassion and forgiveness http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">About that scene... since I'm neither Mel nor film critic/analyser I can't say for sure, but if the punishment of infidels was the main message of the film then we should saw the severe punishment of Pharisees and those romans with scourges. But we won't. Then remember Judas: it was satan who drove him to suicide, not god. And black raven is typically demonic symbol, but not divine like pigeon in christianity.

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Jesus, deliver us from your followers!

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

"Follow me or I will have crows peck out your eyes!"

Sounds like a dictator to me. I just don't know.

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

"Speaketh thou not ill about thy government, lest we throw you in jail without anyone knowing, allowing access to a lawyer, recognition of any rights, or a trial by a jury of your peers"

Patriot Act, 2004

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If this were true, then why in the hell aren't all the protesters in Jail? Why have they not been declared enemies of the state and tossed away?

Simply, the law does not work like that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif The Patriot Act allows for violations of other rights, but it does not give them the right to just "throw" any one for any thing into jail without due-process.

And what does any of this have to do with the current discussion?

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Jesus, deliver us from your followers! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I've never thought of foundation of an own "religion". But it is an good idea ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

My opinion is found on missionaries tryed to proselytise me to some of this "churches". I remember my Last proselytisation: he wants to sell me forgiveness after my life, i want to bye fairness -> after 5 hours discussion no deal http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Now i'm waitig on my next missionary ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">sounds archaic. like old testament. burn the sinners. death to all enemies. erase the unbeleavers. interesting law http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

RE:

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Because you said ""Follow me or I will have crows peck out your eyes!"... Sounds like a dictator to me. I just don't know."

And so I was drawing the obvious parrellel between then and now in terms of dictators.

And, in reference to:

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, as I understand it, the Patriot act gives the government the right to "throw just anyone in jail" so long as they are declared to be "terrorists" - and does revoke their right to due process, representation, outside notification, etc all based on the good faith of the government. And they say they don;t torture people too...the point being that no one is watching the watchmen, the people now rely upon the good faith of the government to govern itself and its behaviour unless I've got it wrong...and, in terms of this discussion, heck, not sure that it does relate, but someone brought up dictators...although if you ask me, any decent christian nowadays should be considering Bush and Ashcroft to be the latest incarnations of the anti-christ...

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

I believe that you are mistaken regarding the Patriot Act.

All I wanted to know is what any of your statement had to do with the current dicussion. Now I know. Thanks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

And It was Clinton / Gore who were the true anti christs. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ May 23, 2004, 23:35: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

We'll it wasn't hidden within the movie that JC was such a forgiving dude. Actually it was right on the forefront, the movie was about torture and the ultimate forgiveness and compassion of JC.

I just wasn't very impressed by it

One question has arisen having seen this movie: final scene: JC and some crooks are nailed and/or strapped to crosses.
One guy says he regrets his crimes etc. and of course JC forgives him.
The other dude, however, remains sceptic and even a bit insulting towards JC's divine powers, and THEN a black raven appears, picking out the "evil" dudes eye. What does this mean?

1) JC is forgiving, as long as you follow His way?
2) We have a punishing god, who goes around torturing people whenever he likes?
3) MEL does not understand his own religion???

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

Atrocities, take a visit to an immigration court or even the jail if you can get a tour of one.

I took an offer once to view a homeland security immigration jail and I was stunned by the cruel mistreatment of not just immigrants, but to naturalized citizens and war veterans who were being held in jail without access to a lawyer or a fair trial or even proper sanitation.

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif I don't know what to say to your post. I honestly pray that no person is being wrongfully held, and or mistreated.

If they are, then hell yes we need a way to litigate their freedom.

Sometimes the idology of better safe than sorry has a human cost that is more often than not over looked.

I wish them all well.

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

Bush is just following in the footsteps of people like FDR...

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And what is that suppossed to mean?

There were two people involved in Mr J cruxificion, the Romans and the Jews, and the Romans are no more, so it obviously means that the Jews rule the world!
Very nice. That's why I'll never see that awful movie. People comes out of the theater with an slightly diferent view of the world.
Brainwashing at its best. (or worst) [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's supposed to mean that mankind the same horde of barbarians as it was 2k years ago, inspite of the civilization, technical progress and such.

And it was your deduction about Jews, not mine - everybody see what he wants to see. I can't see anything wrong about jews in this film, sorry.

And I wonder how anybody can judge the film/picture/book without seing/reading it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">sounds archaic. like old testament. burn the sinners. death to all enemies. erase the unbeleavers. interesting law http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I can recall no instance of 'erase the unbelievers' without human sacrifice being involved. Nor were sinners burnt, that I recall. And the death penalty was only mandatory for adultry and first degree murder.

Compared with other historical law's of the time, I would call Isreal's ancient laws enlightened.

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">i tell what i read in the bible (doings of GOD not of the people):

burn the sinners -> sodom and gomorra
erase the unbeleavers -> the Flood, death of innocent first burn children, ...

The GOD in the old testament is an good exampe of a very good dictator. Efficient by enforcement of his will and brutal to all "opposition".

The Ten Commandments are as a matter of fact enlightened in this time (most of them in our times too).

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

Wouldn't it be funny if when they release it on DVD it has alternate endings included.

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

CW: What a beautiful thought. I'm giggling like a maniac right now just thinking about it (and trying to dream up suitable endings).

I haven't seen this film, but I assume the Judean People's Front Crack Suicide Squad actually succed in rescuing the Messiah in this Version..?

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

If God wants to destroy us, that's his perogative. He made us after all. And it won't be because he's evil. It will be because he's righteous, we are most definitely not.

Just look at the war in Iraq, Terrorism, the prisoner abuses, all the name-calling and backbiting in the media. We see it now, but it's been going on for a long time. We humans are not nice people. We care too much about ourselves and too little about others.

I think that's the whole point of the Jesus story a la this movie. While we deserve destruction by horrible fire, God still loves us so much that he'll become mortal and get his guts ripped out in agony, suffering the punishment that we deserve justly.

It was our trecherous nature that drove the whip to a truly innocent man. The only one ever born into this world.

Death is the only way out of our predicament. You can either die yourself, or accept the death of Jesus and let him give you a new life. Both choices Last a very long time. And both are permanent.

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I understand your position. Here is an other point of view:
there is no GOD. religions are life philosophies, helps people to live ther life with less fear of death and other unpleasentnesses of ther life.

on this basis we can compare religions in the life they induce. from this position bible is an philosophy book and we can discuss it as such. this book describes tho very different philosophies: old one (before JC), new one (introduced by JC). i like only one of them (the second) as life philosophy, but old testament is more exciting as story. Also we can consider GOD as an actor in this story.

But religion is private issue of every human (or alien http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ). And it is not my intension to harm feelings of other people. I'm not dogmatic and accept that GOD may exist. Or many other Gods, i do not discriminate other religions. I have no proof of their existence or nonexistence.

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm. Righteous or not, anyone tries to destroy me is gonna get a kick in the nuts.

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

Even though it's a non Muslim movie, the government of Iran wants the movie shown in Tehran because of it's perceived "anti Jewish" message. Man is that wrong on so many levels. Not only are they not understanding the basic premise of Christianity, but are using an event out of antiquity to condem another religious group.
I vaguely remeber a movie from the 70's called Muhammed: Messenger of God. The Muslims freaked because they thought it pictured Muhammed (a big no-no) but it was a movie from his point of view (and camera too). There were riots, movie theaters were burned with doors locked and people inside, Fatwah's issued. And like a big Three's Company episode; all a big misunderstanding! No real point to this second part except; Man, religion is kooky.

I pray to the Red Star of the Solar Empire.
Always trust your car to the men with the Red Star

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Looks good on paper. On a historical scoreboard however the first one has a better record. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

The funny thing about many religions is that at their core, they preach peace, love and nonviolence, yet they still lead to death, suffering, and violence on a mass scale... Well, it really isn't funny, more ironic...

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Umm, isn't the word your'e looking for is The Bible? I can't believe I read all of these Posts and hardly anyone mentioned that word. If you're looking for the "book" that was used for The Passion Of The Christ, it's called The New Testament. Preferably out of the King James Version, but I think the Catholics may have another slightly different Version they use, and that's what Mel Gibson may have used for reference for his movie. I thought it was a great movie. Was I "moved"? Not to the extent I would have gone to a police station and confessed to any possible crimes I may have committed. But I think it's probably the most realistic and historical movie about the crucifixion ever done.

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I can recall no instance of 'erase the unbelievers' without human sacrifice being involved. Nor were sinners burnt, that I recall. And the death penalty was only mandatory for adultry and first degree murder.

][/quote]

Not true. If you read the Old Testament, or sit in church for about 10 years like I did when I was in my teens, then you find God wasn't as forgiving back then as he is now. Not only were adulterers and murderers killed (usually by stoning), he didn't like people who committed beastiality and witches. They were to be killed also. I'm pretty sure he didn't like homosexuals also, but can't remember now if they were to be killed also (although I'm pretty they were). There's probably more examples in the Bible of types of people God really didn't like, but I can't recall anymore than what I've already typed.

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

In the old testament (which is the exact same Version as muslims have in their koran) it is indeed written that homo's etc should be stoned, and that it is okey to slap your wife with a stick or stone her if she misbehaves.

I know this because there are a lot of muslims in my country(10% of the total pop.) Who still live by these old rules (Well not all of them, but almost half) and are causing a lot of controversy in my country, especially since they think of christians (which means non-muslims in their point of view) to be less than a pig.

Action should be taken against them.

[Edited by Moderator]

[ May 25, 2004, 11:28: Message edited by: Mephisto ]

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

Ok, I'm extremely against religion in all it's forms (although some have redeeming qualitys like buddhism) But i definitely disagree with that Last comment.

Even though i absoloutly deplore homophobia (a lot of my friends are "gay" for lack of a better word, it has such a stigma) and I absoloutly detest the idea of hitting a partner. But however much i dislike their ideals, beliefs and practices they are human after all, and are therefore allowed to believe in what they wish, Human Rights and all.

One day i think we as a race will evolve round the need to believe in a god/gods to explain things and also provide a social/moral code to live by. Of course this is just My Humble Opinion, hopefully one day, even if there is an Omnipotent energy being behind it all (fyron? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ) i hope we can just learn to get along! Idealistic and Naive of me perhaps but until then we havn't got much of chance...

So there's my 2 pennies so to speak (I'm english http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The unfortunate part of this is that suicide rates and prison abuse in these jails - on american soil - are largely ignored and buried away. Some of those people have been thier for years on offenses as minor as speeding or expired tags.

Under current immigration law, homeland security can pull up any offense from 1976 to present (despite the law for this being made in 1996), no matter how minor, and declare it an aggrevated felony. Send thanks to Mcvay family for that.

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And what is that suppossed to mean?

There were two people involved in Mr J cruxificion, the Romans and the Jews, and the Romans are no more, so it obviously means that the Jews rule the world!
Very nice. That's why I'll never see that awful movie. People comes out of the theater with an slightly diferent view of the world.
Brainwashing at its best. (or worst)

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">i tell what i read in the bible (doings of GOD not of the people):

burn the sinners -> sodom and gomorra
erase the unbeleavers -> the Flood, death of innocent first burn children, ...

The GOD in the old testament is an good exampe of a very good dictator. Efficient by enforcement of his will and brutal to all "opposition".

The Ten Commandments are as a matter of fact enlightened in this time (most of them in our times too). [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Considering that there was a mob in sodom and gomorra gathered to rape a couple of people and nobody outside Lot's? house interfered, I think that might be another indicater of why the society was destroyed.

As for the flood? I beleive that to be justified, but I can only base that on my faith in a just God and the general trend in Old Testament history up to that time. You can only base your opposition on a beleif that that many people can't be wrong.

And, in my understanding, the Hebrew people were held to a higher standard than the surounding people. Something they promised.

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

Religion means nothing. All that matters is what is true. If something is true, it's true for me, true for you, and true for any Martians out there.

Since religions are beliefs about what is true, a religeon must be believed in order to be followed. Few people follow something they believe is false.

It's a bad idea to let your friend go on believing something false about something so important as life, the universe, and everything.

If I believe there is no God, and after you die there's nothing, who cares what other people believe? In my world there's only pleasure and pain. There's no such thing as absolute right and wrong. If I believe something is right, it makes me feel good. If it's wrong it makes me feel bad. Live and let live. That's what I say. The guy down the street believes something else? Don't rock the boat. He should believe what he feels is true. This works for me. I don't push my beliefs on others. That hurts. Both me and them. We can be friends without our opinions getting in the way.

If I believe God is true, then I believe we're in deep doo doo. God is just and justly destroys pride, prejudice, and all the rest of them. We're prideful and prejudicial. Unless God gives us a way out, we're bound for loneliness and sorrow-- utter destruction of your self. All your hopes and dreams shattered for infinity. But God, filled with compassion, provides a just way out. It's a narrow way, but it's straight like a laser. He took the destruction and on himself to set you free from the justice you deserve. My friend down the street doesn't believe this? He's in deep trouble. I have to help him.

In the first instance, I don't really care about what other people believe. I don't believe it's important. You die, you die. That's it. The guy down the street pisses me off 'cause he's always trying to push his "religion" on others. It's a personal thing. I believe there is no God. It's my opinion. All he's doing is causing other people pain.

In the second instance, I care very much about what others believe. It's important because the guy down the street is headed for destruction. I care about this guy. I don't want him to wind up regretting his life for the rest of infinity. If I really care about this guy, I'll do whatever I can to convince this guy that the destruction is real, and that God is real, and that Jesus is real. No matter the pain. Rocking the boat hurts? Suck it up, hombre.

So the degree to which someone will try and convince you of something is proportional to how important they believe that thing to be and how much they care about you, because that's how much pain they will be willing to endure to convince you of it.

Look at Jesus. That's not pain for pain's sake. That's pain for you personally. He must have a five gallon bucket of knowing something up there, 'cause that's a lot of pain. Men like that don't suffer pain for no good reason.

It's tough to believe in because love is so simple. It's easy to think too hard about it and miss the point completely. Children can understand it easily, while some of the greatest minds end up wrestling with it for their whole lives.

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

This thread is nearing the point where someone may be forced to show their wrath and erase all of the unchosen which sully the world which is forum. (threads which are OT) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

For if it does make the world unfriendly to those who have sought it out for its declared purpose, only to find it a den of iniquity, then it too shall fade from the world.

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">"God" is not needed to have morality.

[ May 25, 2004, 04:17: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">"God" is not needed to have morality. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">He specified a specific sub-class of ethics; the absolute variety. As unproveable fundamental assumptions are unavoidable, some form of authority/authoritative document that is totally trusted (divine) is required for that sub-class - else, when someone recognizes and disagrees with one or more of those fundamental assumptions, there isn't anything that can be said.

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm not going to qoute the whole thing. I will simply say that our missionaries are instructed to go away if told to and that free will is an essential beleif of my religeon and that I will never force my beleif's on anyone, simply state them and disagree with what I beleive are people's misconceptions. If you tell me to never bother you with my religeos beleif's again, I will, to the best of my memory, never bother you with my religeos beleif's again. A forced conVersion means nothing.

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">We've had off topic threads before that have been heated, still most is read before an answer is written and sometimes it's a debate instead of just stubbornly pointing out one's opinions, and for us who just read the thread it's interesting.

I don't think shrapnel should go in and participate in a thread and then delete it if they aren't happy with the content as long as it's not open racistic or plain stupid.
(but yes, after reading through this thread I too can see that it has touched upon both those criterias http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif And perhaps this particular thread is closing in on the deletion point...)

[ May 25, 2004, 05:59: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

We at the SEIV forum have traveld the OT road before and with much more heat. All the people that went on this road are still here and still talking to one another so I see no need to cut this one road short.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Freduk I see you're from the netherlands. Next time you're in Amsterdam I suggest spending a few hours in the Anne Frank Museum- Hopefully that will be enough to make you think twice about taking action sections of your community based on their religion.

[Edited by Moderator]

[ May 25, 2004, 11:30: Message edited by: Mephisto ]

Re: OT: The Passion of the Christ movie
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Freduk, watch your Tongue, such words give a despectable image of our community.
I'm going to ask for the deletion of your post.