Never ending PBW games because of Stellar manip
 

Imagine two Groups of allied empires in an advanced PBW game. Both of them have stellar manip and both of them have cut their WP to the ennemy and protect their systems with shields facilities.

This type of game may not end, as any attack can be prevented or neutralized by cuting a warp point... Ever experienced that in PBW ? Do player declare a draw match in that situation ?

Re: Never ending PBW games because of Stellar manip
 

This is unlikely expect in full tech game. This can be easily countered by agreeing houserules which prohibits total turteling. Or that winning rules can be made like: No combats in 3 years.

Re: Never ending PBW games because of Stellar manip
 

They will be able to attack whoever does not have these shield facilities, while in return they need zero defense ships, so chances are high they will win. If ALL borderline systems have these shields then there's a problem: you can only switch to using massive intelligence.

But in that case you would better call it quits, also for it must have been a really boring game letting it get this far.

Re: Never ending PBW games because of Stellar manip
 

You *cannot* use intelligence if your opponent has closed all the wormholes leading to his systems, as you will lose contact with this Empire if there is no wormhole connection between at least one of your colonies and one of his. And without contact, you cannot launch intelligence projects against this Empire.

Even if you put a ban on full turtling, you might encounter a situation where an Empire has only one wormhole leading to all its systems. You would then be able to blockade the said wormhole with all your ships/units, making a breakthrough almost impossible. Twenty thousand fighters, bases and the usual defence taskforce of warships would pack a lot of firepower, and it would be possible (and even easy) to make such a situation by creating ten wormholes in all your systems. You merely need some time to do so, but not that much in fact. On the other hand, building the System Shielding facilities would take a lot of time given how expensive this facility is both to research and to build.

Re: Never ending PBW games because of Stellar manip
 

My experience is an empire with the time and resources to do this has pretty much won the game anyway. Their defensive posture is really only prolonging the inevitable. I've not seen a game where two empires reached this state simultaneously. Usually one empire gets there first and can then pretty much attack the other on their own terms while being more or less impregnable themselves. Makes actually for a very quick end.

Re: Never ending PBW games because of Stellar manip
 

I had to get in on this. In Last man Standing We have a turtler. But He opened into systems that an opposing player was able to turn on a system shield. So We (3/4's of the Galaxy) are on the out side and it has taken us over 100 turns to stop the turtler and push him back in his hole. He can't or won't come out and we can't or won't go in 'YET' so I think we may see the greatest warp point assult in all of SEIV history with 4000 or more ships and bases on each side. Even now PBW cannot process the game because it takes a dedicated computer over 30 min. To process the turn. So we are connected but neither side has the strength to attack. And it is well known that the only way to win is by attack. At any rate. all things being equal a big empire that gets warp tech first can usally write the final chapter in a game.

Re: Never ending PBW games because of Stellar manip
 

I am that turtler in Lastman. Or actually all remainging empires are hiding underneath their systemshields. Everybody is equally quilty over here. Shieldless empires were slaughtered quite fast as they were unable to break through systemshields and warppoint ambushes while fleets warpped inside their homeworlds.

Last time i broke free i lost over 1000 ships and managed to destroy 3 systems. Before that i was only empire who hammer it's way through warpambushes into procteded systems.

It's indeed quite hard for each sides: Other side has stockloaded ringworld and armada of bases and legendary trained fleets awaiting and outside lays 4 empires, covering 3/4 of galaxy (two talismans) guarding the gates. If/when i break free it's just another systemshield with warpambush, or ringworld system that is instantly recolonized after glassing, or ringworld under construction with solar bomb awaiting for fleet to arrive. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

SEIV combat mode indeeds makes games stall in the endgames. Fleets are enormous and starter gets an huge advantage so combat gets quite difficult. So each side can't afford risk of attack and losing fleet and allowing opponent roam free for awhile.

Re: Never ending PBW games because of Stellar manip
 

What is needed is for the events "open wormhole" natural random opening to occour or be set in PBW games or random ship movements - i guess in such a refined situtaion yes the game could end in a stalemate - but the no combat for x turns and the largest empire winning is one way to prevent this.

Re: Never ending PBW games because of Stellar manip
 

Personally i would implement limits for fighters, bases and ships for sector. As there allready is for satellites & mines. It wasent on datafiles so i suppost that it can't be modded?

That would decrease penalty of defender firing first and make combats bit more evenly. When fleet sizes exceed 100 things are get out of hand. Sure players would still bring hundreds of ships to fray, but with separate fleets and intercept orders they would fought in different order.

Re: Never ending PBW games because of Stellar manip
 

That would be a nice idea indeed, and you could mod a part of the solution. (Basically, make Bases act as satellites, making Bases subject to the satellite limit per sector) Something along these lignes might be done for stationary fighters (outside combat at least) as well.

However, such a suggestion would be difficult to implement for ships, as you could have two fleets of the maximal size on the same sector at the same time. I am not too sure on how you would work around this. The same problem goes for fighters able to move on their own, plus the fact that fighters can be launched during a combat.

This being said, I would also like less ships involved in battles from the midgame onwards. And then, there is the matter of Stellar Manipulation and choke points, which can act as a powerful deterrent for any offensive. (Basically the situation you describe. It doesn't happen too often, as you need two players to reach the same position at about the same time ; otherwise, the one without Warp Openers/Closers is slaughtered very quickly.) But it seems like I am digressing here.

Re: Never ending PBW games because of Stellar manip
 

If you made some very-high-tech killer drones which use a lot of supplies, then you could have something to discourage fleet accumulations, because an expensive drone attack could threaten a fleet concentration, but would not be cost-efficient against moderate-sized fleets, because it would only be good for one battle (thanks to a high supply use - perhaps high supply use to move from sector to sector, which would eliminate the drone if it moved). Needs refinement and balancing, but perhaps it could address the mass fleet issue.

PvK

Re: Never ending PBW games because of Stellar manip
 

What about modding the system shield to reduce system happiness, system intel, research, organics, rads, minerals, and if possible, production.

You'll have to think long and hard about using one of those, no?

How about it increases the chance of bad events in the system? (you are afterall playing with powers you can barely comprehend...muhahaha)

Or, it needs the power of the sun, so it's either sphereworld, or system shield?

Can you give facilities a maintenance cost? If so, make it a killer so that you can afford them for only a couple systems...

Re: Never ending PBW games because of Stellar manip
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Then you just make a warp net, closing of all your systems for free.

Paul1980au's suggestion of random warp openings seems good to me. (But it must come with a monthly cost of $5 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif )

[ June 10, 2004, 13:19: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

Re: Never ending PBW games because of Stellar manip
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You can in 1.91 by giving them a negative resource generation ability (in previous Versions you'd have to use the solar resource generation or regular extraction abilities which depend on odd factors like the number of stars and the planet value)... but the cost doesn't show up right in the planetary net resource production display http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Never ending PBW games because of Stellar manip
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So here is an interesting (at least to me) thought, what if the system didn't have a space port, would it still take resources away? Or is it like cargo space (I think cargo space dosen't need a space port, but I could be mistaken)?

Re: Never ending PBW games because of Stellar manip
 

I don't know...

However, an idea I had when the facility was first introduced to the game (incidentally, I was opposed to its being included in the first place, precisely due to the possibility of "turtling") is to put the warp-blocking ability on a component instead of a facility, assuming that works - I never tried it! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif (Now that I think of it, it might work on a hull, too... remember the Interdictor Cruiser from Star Wars and Tradewars 2002? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )

Re: Never ending PBW games because of Stellar manip
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Clark, I also like the ability in the se4 v1.91 upgrade - that gives negative resource generation.
Your idea is a good one; perhaps a monthly usage of some rads, would do the trick on the system warp sheild http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ June 10, 2004, 15:51: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Never ending PBW games because of Stellar manip
 

This is a new 1.91 ability that actually reduces resources by a fixed number, and is not affected by planet richness, mining aptitude, resource scanners, robotoid factories, or anything else, correct?

PvK

Re: Never ending PBW games because of Stellar manip
 

I believe so... not entirely sure about the robotoid factories or happiness, though, but I'd be surprised if they did affect it since the ability was created primarily for components, IIRC. However, there's a bug with that ability so that you don't get to see the amount produced or deducted in your budget window... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Never ending PBW games because of Stellar manip
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is great PvK, check out the SJ mod. SJ is basing the economy on it.
As Ed says, you need to keep an eye on your resource totals at the top right of your screen - It is a fun idea and has a lot of potential http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

se5 potential http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

= = = =

SJ's MOD download

SJ MODS Thread

[ June 11, 2004, 14:29: Message edited by: JLS ]