The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

I would say that the single biggest factor behind the existance of a thriving and game-playing SEIV community is the service provided by PBW. The quality of the game itself, and the suppport provided by Shrapnel are of course important. But I'd suggest that if it weren't for PBW, most of us wouldn't be playing Space Empires.

Now I've been away from the game for about a year, and when I came back a few weeks ago I was disconcerted by the number of features that had disappeared from PBW. I was even more disconcerted to read this posted by Geo;

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How sad is it going to be if SEV comes out next year full of new and exciting features, but most of us find it too difficult to organise a multi-player game?

The problem has been, I think, that when a service like PBW is working well, it's very easy to assume that the volunteer who runs it has everything under control, and all the time needed to get the job done. We've sat back, enjoyed the service, and kicked in the odd Paypal payment every now and then. Meanwhile, the old group who put together and ran that service have inevitably found other things to do with their time, and not been replaced.

As you tend to find with players of on-line strategy games, there are a large number of us who work with or know a lot about computers, web-servers and programming. We've surely got all the expertise needed to restore or rebuild and administer PBW, without leaving most of the load to the one brave volunteer who physically hosts the thing.

I've no intention of trying to grab a large role for myself by posting this topic. I'm not one of the more long-standing (or reliable) SEIV players. In fact I think the first principle has to be that the PBW host/chief administrator - currently Geo, and soon to be Tesco - takes the lead and is the final decision maker in these matters. I also think that the PBW host should be able to call on a team of technical "consultants" and deputy administrators to whom they can delegate as the much of the work as possible. That team needs to be organised, and I propose this is where we discuss how to do it.

So if you've got skills and time to volunteer, please do so here. If Geo and Tesco have plans, perhaps you could open them up for discussion.

My key questions are;

What needs to be done?

What resources are needed?

How do we organise it?

Over to you.

Mark

Re: The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

Hi Mark.

This is a great idea.


And one i have been thinking about for a while now.

The current situation stands as follows.

SEIV PBW Server is on its Last legs.

The admin team is working to keep it going.

The current system will also be taking a little trip to Canada quite soon.

The current system needs to be fixed up to a point that it can limp along or be returned to a fully functioning server.


For the future.

I do feel that the PBW system needs a complete refresh.

I would like to see it become modular. And be able to handle SEIV, and then when it comes out SEV.

I do not mind investing my time as a project manager on building this new system up and fully documenting it so those who take over after this generation will know what to do.

Unfortantly this topic has not been discussed in detail with the PBW admins or the community.

Well now is a good time to start.


I suggest that we leave this thread as an openning where people can post if their interested and what experience they have. And most importantly what time they can invest to work on this.


Then we will set up a pbw development forum to work from and create a new sticky on the top of the seiv forum with links to pbw status and pbw development.

this is my suggestion.

Re: The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

eventually i would like to give a few dollars to help out, i would really miss pbw.

Re: The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

Make it so that I can change my Companion program to access it through HTTP as it now can through the Text mode at the current PBW server.

(Hopefully a rough beta without documentation will be released tomorrow)

Re: The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

Perhaps another thread for suggestions and such when the project has started.

we will keep this one for people to ask if they can help out.

Re: The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

RE:

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think this Last point is especially important. In a former life I used to do this sort of thing and bughunts, progress reports, questions, et al were greatly helped by daily collaboration amongst the programmers. I think there are even websites/tools out there specifically for this sort of thing (IIRC "scarab" is one). I would suggest a "development" forum, a "suggestions" forum, and a "current PBW status" forum (which we already have). Good luck, and I wish I could help.

thanks,
Alarik

Re: The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Interests:
I'm interested in development of a new Version of PBW or improvement the old Version.

Time:
No problems to ivest regulary ca. 10hr/week in this project. At minimum 6hr a day Online except weekend (wife and childreen).

Skills:
software design and programming is no problem. Can learn programming Languages fast if necessary. I'm not an artist => design is not realy my thing.

Re: The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">as soon as possible. please make them sticky.

important: separating of "suggestions" and "development".

Re: The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

I'd like to contribute graphics to a new interface.

Re: The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

Do we think that a bunch of threads here in the Shrapnel forum is the best place for this? I was thinking one sticky thread here to keep the public aware of what's going on, and a link to another forum somewhere where we can organize things more to our liking. Plus we probably need some method of uploading files, which we don't have here. I am fairly confident Fyron would be happy to give us room on his site for a forum. Depending on how we go about it we may need a dedicated site though with whatever software controls the check out of the code in progress. I am pretty sure that would be easily gotten somewhere, but not here.

Re: The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

Shall we start a poll on Languages and OS's? (java, perl, php, mysql, msql, windows, linux)

Can it be designed as a generic PbEM site which can be modified for a particulat game? Maybe even one that can manage other game-hosts at once (SEIV and others) which would be good for gaining support from a company.

Would building off of a package speed things up? Maybe an opensource webforum package that allows uploads/downloads?

SourceForge it?

notes from another thread in another forum

Standard player map games can be offered for a web signup. Also randomly created maps can be displayed and offered for download and play.

Games with not enough signups can be deleted after a certain amount of time, games with enough players can be started. A directory created and the host called to start a game. Each game can have its own email address for receiving turns which would make it easy to move incoming turns into the game directory. And would create an archive of past turn-ins in case a turn had to be manually moved back.

Since a "full user" could be created for each game (might as well, already up to having a directory and an email address) then the directory created for each game could also support web pages which means each game could have its own webboard (with NO banners or ads), its own automatic elist, its own ftp directory.

The games webpage could automatically include any information that the game is designed to write out to seperate files. The map of course could be displayed. Score standings, player/pretender names, who has/hasnt submitted turn files.

Another advantage would be in the area of anonymous games. Complete anonymity could be done. Or various levels such as supporting a player creating a whole new persona for each game played but still allowing player-to-player contact for diplomacy which does not carry consequences from game to game (we have had many threads on this subject in the newsGroups)

Yet another advantage is that there would not need to be any human doing any of this. With a full-time server, and full automation, new games could be started and run without having to coordinate with anyone. And with the option to use a randomly generated map there will be no foreknowledge by anyone of where special things are. Even special items, sites, specially designed provinces could be randomized for a completely fresh and fair game each time.

OK this seems like alot but as far as I know there is nothing listed here that is all that hard to do. Most of it I have already done on my server but Im more idea guy than I am manage guy. I only messed with the pieces long enough to figure out that it could be done, then I dropped it. Im a system admin. We have player programmers Im pretty sure. Do we have any webmasters?


create cgi to upload files
create each game as user with email and webspace
give each nation subdir off of game webspace
give each player .htpasswd password access to their nations subdir
use midnight hosting script to gather turn files from subdirs
use midnight script or maybe --postexec to move turn files to subdir
setup procmail to extract turn files that are mailed into game email acct?
setup system for emailing turn files back to players who request it?
or setup system for email notifications of turns being processed?


Possibly create CGI signup for games. List the games parameters. Offer the nations. When a user signs up then give them the .htpaswd password to the upload/download directory. Requested by user: add password access to the signup? Or use htpasswd controls for that (give list of all nation access passwd to GameMaster of that game?)

Create a cron watchdog to keep an eye on the game directorys deleting anything that shouldnt be there so they dont get used as warez sites.

[ June 07, 2004, 17:34: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

Excellent point. This is the "community of players" whereas the developers should be separate so as to facilitate cooperation, speedier development, etc....without fear of getting dragged down by user requests etc.... I would think the "suggestions" forum should stay here and the devlopers should also post "progress reports" perhaps?

Now I really am butting out. Not my bailiwick.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ok... Since this thread is developing a different path.
I will start a new thread called

PBW - Development - Sign Up

Re: The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Poll please, yes, so we can gather who acually want to contribute under the given conditons (i.e. Languages).
If we do a good modular design - which seems to be best for this kind of development anyway - it shouldn't be a big problem to adapt it for other games just by exchanging the relevant modules, being able to retain the main administration structure.
As for the other questions/suggestions/to do's: one step after the other please http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

As you seem to have good overview over the problems/needed features, and the needed admin abilities, how about appointing you to project manager?? Any objections? No? Ok, you have the job http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heehee. Thanks but firstly, I doubt very much that would go thru without objections.
Secondly, Id make a bad project manager. Im more debater than decision maker.
Call me when you think you have it all worked out and I will be glad to toss in "great ideas" that will stir the pot again. Thats what Im good at. (though thats not always considered a good thing) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

ByTheWay, I probably should say that another forum, even a private one, can be setup here. Shrapnel has also offered in the past to help host web-signup sites like this when they are ready. But there may also be a faction interested in seperating and going with a fansite instead.

-- (sig line)The administration of programmers has been compared to herding cats. Basically you shoo them all in a particular direction by standing behind them, waving your hands and making loud noises. Eventually one of them might get where you want.

[ June 07, 2004, 19:37: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

There seems to be an implicit assumption in some of the recent Posts (e.g. discussing polls to pick programming Languages), that we'll be building a new PBW from scratch.

Can I just throw in the suggestion that maybe we just need to overhaul (and document, and arrange for long-term maintenance) the current system? When working properly, PBW as is (or was) had an extremely rich feature set. It may not be the generic PBEM game-server that Gandalf is after, and may not have been built using our favourite tools, but it did the job specified - running lots of Space Empire games - very, very well. Now I know that going throuugh an existing chunk of (presumably undocumented) code is going to be difficult and unpleasant (and may leave us with IP limitations depending on the original programmers' attitude to copyright), but it offers us the following advantages.

1. We know somewhere on the PBW server is a system that works. The diagnosis and fixing process may be difficult, but all the components of a working system are definitely there.

2. It kills two birds with one stone. Remember, that our mission - should we choose to accept it - actually includes two tasks. The first is keeping the current PBW server up and running so that we can continue to play games. The second is restoring the lost PBW functionality and adding any extra new features we might need. The advantage of the overhaul approach, as opposed to a rebuild from scratch, is that it does both simultaneously. The nightmare scenario is that the current server fails completely (or just becomes badly unreliable), while a shiny new PBW II is 12 months away from completion.

Mark

Re: The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Geo is right that a design or programming team is going to need some facilities that these forums don't provide. On the other hand, I would like to think that the team can hold discussions in public. I think there's certain, welcome, level of accountability implicit in the idea that the potential Users of the system can follow what the developers are doing. And some of them may be interested, but unable to take part. Why split off into a private forum?

Everyone who plays SEIV has a stake in this process. Certainly we'll need to ask people to stay on-topic in certain forums, but why exlude anyone?

Just a thought.

Mark

Re: The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

I didn't mean to exclude anyone. My preferance would be for whatever forum we have to be open at least for reading and posting comments by anyone. My thought was just to allow us to organize the forum into different threads and whatnot that we can't really do effectivly here.

Re: The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is certainly an admirable goal. The open-source aspect of it may not be an option though in that regard since as I stated before, the code belongs to Admiral. I can ask him how he feels about making it open source, but I can't make any promises.

Re: The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

I think that the gathering of information as to who is available and their backgrounds is still a good idea also. Overhauling PBW would be great, if we get permission and if we have people who can do that. Its both "ifs" that need answering.

Re: The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

Mark is right about one thing: our first goal should be to get permission to examine the code, do a little head-scratching, and see if we can't figure out what's gone wrong with it. At least we should be able to identify which blocks/modules contain the problems. With any luck, the programmer has left a few notes.

A complete rewrite is only necessary where the code is undecipherable. Even in that case, it still sounds as though much of it is going to be reusable.

[ June 08, 2004, 21:27: Message edited by: Cipher7071 ]

Re: The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

Even if we can get the code and "decipher" it, it may be a wise move to build a new modular system from scratch. The old code might be to clogged up to be maintained properly, and most likely has other design principles.
We should start to agree on a language and database, like PHP/mySQL. Someone start a poll please. Then we could start a thread to define a database structure, and which modules should be done to allow for basic functionality. Nothing else. Then who will give which modules a first shot, and build a new system parallel to the old one without interfering with the old or any repair that might be going on there.
As soon as the code is basically working and has undergone basic testing, we can transfer the data to the new system, at a time when at least one competent programmer with time at hands is available to do Last-minute bugfixes.
This all should be done as soon as possible.

When the old system has been totally replaced, we can start to add extra goodies, nice graphics, and features not needed for basic playing. For this, we can take as much time as we want to discuss what to add and how to do, as the basic modular design should allow to insert additions with little effort. This is not so with the current system, I guess.

Re: The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

Hi.

The current system must be kept up and running before the new system can take over.

This is the reality of the situation.

the other reality is that the system needs to be updated.

This is a task that will happen.

For the current system will be obsolete in a year or two anyways.

So the future of PBW calls for a new system.
IMHO.

As the upcoming lead administrator for the pbw system. I am fully aware that this responsibilty falls upon me to determine if this is the proper path for the pbw community to take. Or if it will be come a time to call it a day.

Currently this topic is being tossed around between GEO and myself.

The other pbw admins are doing everything they can to get the system back up and running.

Soon they box will be traveling to my house.

Then I will be asking geo for his help......

These are the realities of what is going to happen.

More info will follow.

But i want to clear with everyone that I do not want to see PBW die off in 2 or 3 months because the system cannot be fixed.

But it could happen.


As for the development of a new system.


I am going to take the lead on that.


Reason is because I will have the box. And ultimately the responsiblity will fall upon me because of that reason.


I do hope that i can live up to the level that geo set over the Last two years.


And I do thank him ( my wife doesn't) for all the enjoyment that pbw has offered.

Simon

Re: The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ok, then please start organizing. As I wrote in my message, I think that a basic, functioning system should be developed independent of the status and repair trials on the old system, while it is still running. Soon.

Re: The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

Sorry about posting this here, but there doesn't seem to be a suggestions thread - I just thought, what with Ruatha's program interfacing with PBW and also loading the PBW site in a Windows form, that suggests that maybe PBW2 should be designed from the ground up as a Web Service - I don't know if the term is unique to the .NET Framework, but what a Web Service is, is basically a set of functionality that can be accessed over the web from any sort of client program - it could be a dynamic website running in a browser, or it could be a Windows application, or a Linux application, or whatever you want.
Thus, to make it concrete, PBW2 might have a "game" class, which would have functions like "add player" and "process turn"; those functions would be what is called by the client. Basically, it's the same as the current system, only with a middle layer in between the user and SE4 to make the PBW functionality easily accessible to a wider range of clients than just the standard web site.
Granted, I've never written a web service before, but as I've mentioned, I have done some programming with ASP.NET, and web services seem to be the next step up, so I should be learning about them soon in school... and from what I hear they're not all that complicated anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

I've just been reading the threads on the PBW emergency server (do a search on "emergency server" to find the relevant stuff). Question for everyone involved, especially Ruatha; is this ready to run should PBW die completely, and could it be a useful starting point for the new project?

Mark

Re: The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

Ok the initial emails are going out now to a few people to talk about this.

Do not be alarmed if you do not receive an email and expressed interest in the development.

You will be called upon later when the initial scope of this project has been fully defined.

Re: The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

While my programming skills aren't much to speak of, I'm quite decent at writing. If it would be necessary (or even merely desirable) to write up text for various aspects of the interface, I would be most pleased to help.

Its not much, but its what I have to offer for now.

As far as what language, in my experience, I've liked PHP best of any of the others I've seen. Not that I know much about it, but that's what I'd vote for.

Re: The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

I wish I knew more about how SEIV does things before I posted this so pardon me. But I see 2 "paths" here that are often used in writing something like this.

A) programming from the top down. The menu choices are written, the sub-routines ironed out, often results in one huge program in one specific language, using the system to answer a need is the Last consideration

B) designed from bottom up, system answers are put in place first, then routines to access them, finally they are put together under menus

Both have their pros and cons. A big part of it is that "A" is easier maintained by programmers, and "B" is easier maintained by SysAdmins. Also "A" is easier for fansites to setup, and "B" has advantages on a dedicated server.

Im afraid that if I were to flow-chart/psuedo-code a project like this it would be in "B" mode due to my background (and even then I would be mostly in linux mode asking for help from the Windows admins here)

It seems as though the PBW we have now is "A" mode. Which is fine but the pros and cons of it is something we are running into now. Id love to see it fixed up and back running. But I have more interest in seeing a "B" mode done than in seeing a different "A" mode.

This post may be way out of line and maybe I should start a different thread to explain a "B" mode layout so people can tell me that SEIV wont work that way?

[ June 09, 2004, 16:18: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

If it is designed from the ground up using PHP and MySQL I can help out a little. I use those two combined for our website at work. While I cannot play a large part in the work due to no time it seems, perhaps when/if development does start I can take a look at the code and offer suggestions or help out with some small problems. It is not much but best I can do.

Re: The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes please.
I have been (also?) excluded from the exclusive tesco-picked circle of first-hand designers (I guess too much professional experience http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) and don't know if I have made my point clear enough to whoever decides about PBW future that another system with the same eventually unmaintainable structure as the current system might not be desirable.

Re: The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

I have not sent all the emails out yet.... I am at work and well work calls.... that stuff i do from home....

Re: The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I would have thought that B is the best model for anything that's going to be built by a distributed team. And if we're talking about project structure and development style, then I'd like us to aim at a sort of RAD style prototyping + incremental updates approach rather than specifying an all bells-and-whistles PBW and trying to build it in one big go.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It would probably be good if we could avoid the paranoia and bickering quite this early in the project ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Mark

[ June 09, 2004, 21:17: Message edited by: Mark the Merciful ]

Re: The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It is an emergency system.
(And mostly untested, it's been tested mostly as a fileserver but should work also as a gameserver.
It can perhaps be set up to bear the load of the current PBW server, but not with the versatility that PBW has offered (Multitude of mods, exe Versions, files and forums, etc)
There is no password protection for regular Users, only for admins.

And no, it is not something to build a new PBW server on, it's an emergency thing.

A new PBW server should be built from scratch with no old code, only old ideas.

Before anything get's programmed it must be decided what should be programmed, a clear though through flow chart of everything.
Then it can be decided what should be made first.
That's my point of view but I have the utmost trust in that Tesco will do a good job.

(I've promised my wife that the companion is almost done, so I'm not in the situation of getting involved in a new project http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif )

I have switched on the Emergency server now, mind you that it is on my home computer with my internet connection. So it's not too fast.
But as an example of what it can do: (The autoturn.exe isn't running.)
http://ruatha.homelinux.org

the software (Still under slooow development can be found here):
http://ruatha.homelinux.org/PBW_e2_beta.zip

If anyone want's to check the software out you will realise why it isn't something to build a new PBW server upon http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ June 09, 2004, 19:19: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

Re: The future of PBW - a call to arms
 

I will have the forum up this weekend.

Link to follow.

Everyone here is welcome to join.

Everyone here is welcome to join in the dicussions about the development of pbw.

That way we can take this off of here.

I already have a few ideas...

So to toss them out.

a few areas to talk about

1. constraints. Must be on a windows server box.
2. server side application ( I am leaning towards dot net application vs a script world of java, php , etc... )
3. client side application
4. web interface ( possibly database driven php pages. )
5. database
6. server administration
7. documentation
8. graphics
9. modular and dlls ver scripts...


Some stuff to think about ...

for a day or two.

Until the forum is set up.

Unless some one else can set up a forum before i get a chance http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif