Empire setup and specialization
 

So, while playing a bit with various Empire setups under PvK Balance Mod, something looking remotely likely an idea has struck me. It goes as follow:

The vanilla game (and, to a lesser extent, PvK Balance Mod) focuses on generalist Empires with small bonuses in most useful characteristics, as it is much cheaper to do so because of the post-threshold costs to increase any characteristic. (For example, Research costs 25 points to raise from 100 to 120, and then 100 points from 120 onwards) I would actually make it the other way around, which means you would pay, say, 1,000 points to get your Research characteristic at 105, and then it would be cheaper to raise. (For example, 40 points per point)

The point would be to make generalist setups too expensive to make compared to an Empire excelling in one or two fields. Obviously, making such a mod would be a *Ahem* slightly difficult endeavour because you would need to balance all the various options.

Would such an idea interest anyone here, or am I the only one who loves Empires with 240% in political savvy?

Re: Empire setup and specialization
 

Thats actually a very nifty idea, sounds extremely interesting. I think it would add great roleplaying value to games, and a lot more strategy as you would have to compensate for your weaknesses.

Very Intriguing... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Empire setup and specialization
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There is only space for spezialization in complex environments. In a SEIV game: many human players.

There is no place for 240% pol.saavy in a 2 Player game. But in a 20 Players game you can generate a symbiosis of few specialists that works much better than few generalists. Also you have not the freedom to make all decisions adequate in some situations. i.e. as pacifist with -80% to combat you can not realy declare a war to your aggressive neighbour.

Re: Empire setup and specialization
 

You would not necessarily need many players in such a game, but rather some time to build your Empire. You will need to play something else than a 1vs1 obviously, as I have a hunch Political Savvy isn't the most useful characteristic around in such a case where you have no treaties. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

But even with four players, a specialized Empire could do well, provided it has the time to be developed and to set up appropriate strategies. For example, your Pacifist Empire would likely be the target of an imperialist player, and so you would have to use something else besides direct fire weapons. (That is, boarding, ramming and seekers, luck and prayers) But then, you should have other strengths at your disposal to compensate for this incapacity to destroy anything but your own ships because of friendly fire.

On the other hand, there are some specializations that would help even in a game such as in KOTH. Having a lot in Research would allow you to get a lead in this field, and since speed often means life and death, it could very well turn the tables. I know I could have used such a bonus in a few circumstances where I lost all major battles and still won through economics. But I am digressing here.

Edited because of horrible spelling and grammar.

[ June 09, 2004, 14:32: Message edited by: Alneyan ]

Re: Empire setup and specialization
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">heh. true, true!

I wonder how many competing specialist empire designs would be competitive. I'd guess: Research, Defense, and Maintenance (or would Minerals be better?)

And would it be a good idea to boost the culture-type bonuses, so you could specialize in one area and have a decent bonus to another (or really, really specialize in one area).

Re: Empire setup and specialization
 

As I see it, the specializations would be as follow:

- Above average: Research, Aggressiveness/Defenciveness, Minerals and Maintenance. (According to my small calculations, Minerals is better for the early game while Maintenance helps a lot later on. It depends on your losses and the presence of trade as well, so in short... Your mileage may vary. *Smirks*)
- May help certain players: Cunning (with a very high bonus), Political Savvy, Construction Aptitude (if you want to be mean, prevent a player from being able to build Colony Ships on Emergency Build in one turn without investing quite a lot of points in Construction) and possibly Organics/Radioactives for Monolith Users and/or resource conVersion.
- Could be useful if made very cheap/gives a huge bonus: Happiness, which may give a small bonus early on or speeds up the process of reaching Jubilant everywhere. It shouldn't cost as much as something like Maintenance obviously. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The rest of them do not quite seem too useful in a vanilla game, though some may become useful under certain circumstances. (For example Physical Strength when facing a player fond of Replicant Centers when you play without glassing)

I am not too sure how Repair works when improved, but I seem to recall it doesn't affect the actual repair rates. Is it so? Otherwise, it could make for an interesting side bonus, but then, a trait would work I guess.


As for the cultures: it would indeed be another way to achieve the same result. There might be another solution as well: instead of altering the game files, this "mod" would be a very nice table, and the players would make their own cultures according to this table (on a point-based system as in SEIV). The game owner would then create a culture per player to make their Empire files, leaving aside the characteristics. If wished, it might even allow the players to hide their characteristics, or at least to only give limited information about them. (So instead of saying that an Empire has 50% offence/defence, it would be something like "this Empire isn't focused on combat")

[ June 09, 2004, 15:34: Message edited by: Alneyan ]

Re: Empire setup and specialization
 

Might have to readjust the cultural modifiers... free bonuses afterall.

Re: Empire setup and specialization
 

If reducing points by a little bit also gave a big (or Bigger) point bonus, you could still have half the abilities reduced and half raised way up.

Re: Empire setup and specialization
 

Both values (that is, to raise and to lower) are independent, but it raises a good question I forgot to mention. Should you gain a lot of points based on the same formula when you lower a characteristic, or should it be much more reduced, or even impossible at all?

Now that I am thinking on it, I guess only using specific cultures would make matters much easier to handle. You would need a nice game host to make all the said cultures, but... And remains the small aforementioned problem of balance of course. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Empire setup and specialization
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It works fine if you raise the trait. Just be aware that the trait affects the total repair in the sector, not individual components. If you have components with 1 repair, a 20% bonus would do nothing if it made each of them 1.2, as decimals are lost. Instead, it totals up all repair, then increases by 20%.

Re: Empire setup and specialization
 

I think that specialized empire designs are quite viable in PvK Balance Mod, and in other mods with balanced starting costs.

The reason balance provides this, is that when there are not enough points to buy everything worth buying, then there are choices, and some abilities, anyway, are worth their threshold cost, because they get better the more you get.

Particularly Attack, Defense, Maintenance, Construction, and perhaps some of the others that generate points of various things (research, intel, savvy, resources).

The proposal to set the Normal range to high is interesting, but unfortunately because of the limited options, it will also mean the default choice will be a minor reduction to get a bunch of refund points, since you can't have a different Normal cost for positive and negative.

The cultures though do offer ways to enable enforced specialist types. I would combine with a balanced mod for best effect.

PvK

Re: Empire setup and specialization
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is a problem... Though if you only apply the "specialist" formula (High normal cost, low threshold cost) to the items that are dangerous to lower by much(research, aggressive, defensive, minerals, maint, construction) the idea will still work... Then you could address the other stats in the Cultures to make additional specialist types...(like +1000 Repair...)

Re: Empire setup and specialization
 

This is already being done (to some extent) in the Imperialism mod. Which i need to run turns for, but since ive been trapped at work for such stupid hours over the Last few weeks...

anyway, i did the exact thing you describe - but only for political savvy. high cost to raise or lower a few points, lower cost to raise or lower beyond the threshold. and it pays off even with fewer players (works better with more players) because its more profitable to subjugate AI races (with a high bonus) than it is to conquer them outright.

Re: Empire setup and specialization
 

Well, I tend to make my Empires with a generalist mindset under PvK Balance, but is it because it is better, or because I am used to it? At any rate, your mod helps making some choices be more attractive. 150% repair is actually worth it (thank you Fyron for explaining this one), and raising Happiness may be a good choice once it is tweaked. Mineral production would also be a good one to raise to high levels, as it doesn't cost a lot and saves a lot of headaches if you have few planets with many minerals.

I will have to check what happens with a 0 point setup though, as it may make matters that much more complicated. While an Empire with at least decent stats in the important characteristics can be made with 2,000 points, it may be very well another story with 0 point and much less free points from Happiness.

There would be two ways to mod such a specialization in the mod, as using the regular characteristic system will not exactly work:
- You could make pointless traits costing a certain amount of points, and these would be needed to raise a given characteristic above Average. For example, you will have to take the Scientist trait to raise Research above 100, and it will cost, say, 1,000 points.
- Or you could make a chart and ask your players to design their own cultures, as explained a bit below in the thread. This may allow to hide a part of the Empire setup as well, but it would take longer for the game owner.

Both options require the game owner to check Empire files, but I wouldn't expect such games to take place too often, so. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif