Carribean mod
 

Because I get distracted very easily, and also due to the lack of Predator resources out there, I'm placing my AvP mod on hold until I get interested in it again.

Okay, so it's mostly because I want to make a pirates mod. As in 15th Century "Yo-ho-ho and a bottle of rum", and "Avast, ye filthy land-lubbers!" pirates.

I already have a fair number of ideas, thanks to Fyron and Hugh, but what would people like to see in this kind of mod?

You all want ninja pirates, right?

Re: Carribean mod
 

I had thought about a 'Sailing Ships/Ships of the Line/Cannons and Such' MOD myself. Mostly just alot of space in my brain from when I first started playing SE3.

1. Different size cannons of course.

2. Boarding Parties...lots of boarding parties.

3. Buried Treasure...(like ruins?)

4. Sails for movement...(instead of engines)

5. NO SHIELDS! Armor is god. Wooden Armor !!

6. Maybe different kinds of Cannon rounds...
Solid shot, Exploding Shot, Heated Shot,
Grape Shot, Chain Shot.

Ok...I'm sure I can go on...but I don't want to jump on your parade...If you can pick up a copy of GURPS 'Swashbucklers' it might even give you some more ideas...

Good Luck,

Kana

Re: Carribean mod
 

If you're still in the market, Kana, two heads are always better than one. It could be the start of a beautiful relationship.

I haven't done a whole lot of work on it yet - I intended to start tomorrow after a good sleep and a few pints, but it just kept buzzing around my head so I'm still awake. Here's what I have so far in my notepad:

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's all I've come up with so far, but I'll probably carry on thinking about it after I post this.

The stuff Fyron and I were discussing earlier included:

Planets - Islands. Three types, colonisable from the start dependent on race (Desert Island, Cave Complex, Volcanic Island). All Planets would be Oxygen, but small in size.

Resources - Minerals == Wood, Organics == Food, Radioactives == Gunpowder.

Black Holes - Whirlpools
Nebula - Fog Banks
Ion Storms - Reefs, Rocks, and small fog banks

Leaky Armor. Stars would be non-existant.

There was probably more but I've managed to lose it. I'm sure I'll remember it at some point.

Oh, and Ninja Pirates.

Re: Carribean mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ninja Pirate Mice?

Re: Carribean mod
 

Interesting mod and good for diversification of the game SE4 mod efforts - hope you put it in for SE5 to

Re: Carribean mod
 

Just FYI, grapeshot was used to kill crew. The weight of the shot just bounced off wooden decks. Fired down the length of a ship they were deadly since the shot bounced around till it expended its energy or hit something soft, ie. crew. If you want something to match your description, it would be doubleshot which was the short range, high damage shot of choice. Also, for the Age of Sail period, archers would have been ancient technology and not in use. If your looking for a long range, less damage option against crew/security, I would use the muskets and use either the grapeshot (above) or deck guns (basically a hand held cannon used by marines to fire grapeshot)for a greater damage, shorter range option. A caveat about oars, during the period only the smallest of the ships would have been so equipped (typically 20 guns or less having a class rating of 5 or 6, though most would have been 6). No Ships of the Line were so equipped, they simply were too large and weighted too much for oars to be useful. Of course you can always let any ship use them for the fun or gameplay factor or its a way of making small ships more useful over larger ships. A more common approach used by ships of all sizes to improve their speed was the lining of the hull below the waterline with copper. Wood in contact with the sea has problems with barnacle growth which in turn adds to the friction of moving through the water slowing it down. Copper lining eliminated this since barnacles could not attach themselves to hulls so lined. Mortars of the period were useless against any moving target, they were too slow to load, target and fire (ie. reload 5 or 6). They were only used against fixed targets like forts, in the parlance of SE4, they are planet only weapons. They also take up a lot of room. Mortars on ships were used as singles or pairs (the ships were called bomb ketches). Heated shot should be restricted to weapons platforms (forts?) as it was never used by ships on the high seas, too dangerous. Exploding shot of the period were the bombs fired by mortars. No other weapons had any exploding shot. By this time period, ramming was not really not used. If you could get close enough to ram an enemy ship, why not simply board and capture it? Instead,how about fireships for warheads? They were not used often, but every fleet had them.

Re: Carribean mod
 

Yeah, my initial intent for the grapeshot was for crew killing purposes, I just didn't type it in. Doubleshot has been noted, definitely, and will be added.

Archers... these would only be used by certain 'races'. Colonial types wouldn't really bother because they'd have plenty of supplies from their countries, but pirates may be slightly more inclined, especially if muskets were in short supply. No matter how much gunpowder changed warfare, I can still picture some nefarious types using fire arrows, especially pirate/savage types.

As for mortars... I do agree with you, but for the sake of variety I'd like to see them in ship-to-ship combat, too. They'd have a very low accuracy, for the reasons you mentioned (which would be made up for somewhat when targetting planets), but the fact that they'd ignore armor (since they'd be coming straight down on the deck) could make them slightly useful. But yes, their main purpose would be for bombarding islands.

The copper lining of the hulls is a good idea, and will definitely be going into the mod. Perhaps even serving as a form of leaky armor in conjunction with the movement bonus - but yeah, I'd still like to include oars, though, mainly due to the scene from the film Pirates of the Caribbean. They'd give higher movement bonuses to smaller ships (though not a whole lot, since they would have less oars than larger ships equipped with them).

Also, the overall idea was to leave the caribbean contested until somebody won. That is to say, technology will continue to increase steadily beyond the 15th century (not too far, though), the main theme of the game is wooden ships.

Here's some other things for you guys to chew over:

Fighters - Row boats? Is it possible to allow fighters to use the boarding attack? These would be high KT fighters, obviously, with a very large ship being able to carry around 4, total.

Mines - Did they use mines? Or anything that could be used as mines?

Re: Carribean mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ninja Pirate Mice? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I can see it now.

"Cap'n, all our cheese is gone!" said One-Eyed Bastard.

"Yarr, ye great oaf! I told ye to put the traps down, ye one-eyed son of a barnacle!" The Captain didn't look happy.

"I did Cap'n, I did! No mouse could've got past 'em all, I says!"

A single mouse, dressed all in black and wearing a triangular hat, was watching them from the shadows of the rigging. He took another bite from his pawful of cheese and then black-flipped into the air - disappearing in a puff of smoke.

Re: Carribean mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">For the time period, they do not use anything close to resembling mines. I can not think of anything period they could represent off the top of my head.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Unfortunately they can not use the boarding attack. Fighters could however represent gunboats. These were what amounted to large rowboats with a single gun mounted in the bow. Used mostly on large lakes they really weren't launched from large ships, but for game purposes I wouldn't see a problem given the small number that could be launched this way. You could also have fireships launched in this fashion or as drones. Its looks like you're towards having period flavor and not necessarily historical accuracy and given the tools you have in SE4 for making such a mod it is probably the only way to go. It broadens the choices you have to offer and the strategic issues a player should face.

Re: Carribean mod
 

I also like this Idea for a MOD theme:

Redo the Planet pics to look like the Islands and the American Coasts along with the West African Coast (perhaps even western Europe ports) and the nearby strategic Islands to include Azores, Canarys, Verdi etc.
Warp Points to represent SEA LANES.

Stay true to form!!! and go for it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

(Wooden Ships and Iron Men) and all that rah http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Hmm, possible pics there and other games http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

= = = = = = =
I always wanted to do a se4 Pacific War type MOD with a coast lines, Islands, Sea Lanes and much-much more. This could be made a spectacular se4 MOD - and all the tools are there http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

But no time and plenty of ideas.

[ July 06, 2004, 00:45: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Carribean mod
 

Beck: Thanks, shame about the mines but the fighters are sounding good.

JLS: I wish I could show you the pictures I've already done for the planets, asteroids, whirlpools and all that jazz. They're absolutely pathetic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Haha.

But yeah, incorporating other areas of the world could be an idea. Maybe even Asia. The Chinese apparently had some of the best naval technology available at the time, and as someone pointed out on #se4, those Chinese pirates from Swiss Family Robinson were very cool.

It will also make Ninja Pirates easier to get away with.

Re: Carribean mod
 

You do the DATA and then I will get the Island, Coastal and Sea Lanes QUAD PICs done for you - OK

From that point you/we will tie it together, if you wish.

[ July 06, 2004, 03:09: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Carribean mod
 

Sure JLS, sounds good. I'll get started on those in the morning then.

I was also kicking around the idea of remote mining... It might be a good way to represent piracy, other than Intel projects.

I was thinking maybe there would be a few systems that would basically be "open ocean" that didn't contain fog banks or whirlpools (nebulae and blackholes, respectively), but acted a lot like Asteroid systems.

Anyway, there would be spots on these open stretches of ocean that would represent trade routes. You'd place your ship with a special component on there, and it would generate resources for you each turn. Yes, just like remote mining. But it might be an idea to place a stronger emphasis on it, which each race being specialised in different remote-mining types.

So, for instance, Colonials would be average at collecting wood and food, but better than most in collecting weapons (supply from the mainland).

To be honest, I see established islands as being VERY hard to "glass", and with the vast amount of troop types I intend to include, fairly balanced when attempting to capture an island. These "trade routes" will give players (especially pirates) a target to harass. There would probably need to be some sort of bonus effect for destroying ships with these trade components, which I'll look into tomorrow too.

Re: Carribean mod
 

Best to start small and then add as you go http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Think smaller Modules:
1~ Vehicles (Surf Boats-Boarding Barge-Cutter-Brig-Yawl-Sloop - Man of War = one Decker-Two Decker etc. There may be no need to find a need for se4 bases at this time and save for a latter module -You have all the time in the world

~Troops= Lobers, Swabs, Sailors, Marines, Regulars, Pirates (Field Cannons) Etc. - There also may be no need to find a need for Fighters, SATs or Mines at this stage; However Weapon Platforms will make fine on Shore Batteries
- - -
2~ Components= Sail inventory and that Ships rigging Configurations versus Salt Water Hull Displacement may define your Ships Speed. Jib-Staysals-Foresals-Mainsal-Mizzens-Gallants-Topsals and my fav the Spanker http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
(perhaps, a short combat speed to avoid a weird simulation rush?) Fyron may be best to advise here.
Also to figure a way to represent the "weather gauge" for Combat Advantages.

~Armor for the Hull
~Shields for the boarding and Splinter Nettings

~Weapons= How much weight in metal do you want your Cannons to throw: 4 pounders -8 Pounders-16 Pounders etc. (how many guns per Broad Side and then in total) There is:

Long range Round Shot (accurate and powerful) However, knocks out guns and rarely fatal. Unless the timing is such that the Firing Broadside is on the Down Swell and the shoot is to the windward (to your lee or the target is {just} on the peak of an up swell and few cable lengths away)- so it makes fast below the waterline. (Possibly Weapons Damage as an ability)

Short Range Chain Shot (engine damage) to take out Sails. (not against Planets)

Shorter range Grape Shot (Shield Damaging) and against the Boarding and Splinter Nettings (not against Planets)

Carronades that are inaccurate but will LOB up and then down thru the unarmored Decks and then hole the keel (skip Armor) and great for shore bombardments (extra against Planets) eek:

Smaller Bow and Stern Chasers (not against Planets) And could be very weak and Extra long range - just for the effect.

The very small swiveled Qtr Deck scatter guns - mainly for any unhappy crew or boarding defense and sometimes both at the same time. (Perhaps Boarding Defense and not against Planets)

- - -

3~Facilities: Boat and crews need Drinking WATER, Spars, Sail Cloth, Food, Grog, Line, Blocks etc.

Government House-Trading House-Barracks-Civil Quarters-Fleet Head Quarters-Ship Yards-Hospitals-Impressments Camp-Labor Camps-Harbor Patrols-Harbor Trade-Harbor Work Details Etc.
I like your Resource idea - "Metal, Food and Wood"
Distilleries, Farms, Lumber Works, Mining Camps, Sugar Cane, Spices, Cattle, Textiles...... (Facilities this can be endless http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
- - -
Research, Intel and Event files can come Last once you have your Core (for the Research, Intel and Event ideas - that will fall into place).
Then the overall balance
Adding the AI (Ship Capture should be a challenge)
Followed by the great shuffle with most of your data http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
Not to mention the Endless Testings http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

= = = = = = = =

Research the time Period,
Stay with the time Period...
Start with small Modules and add as you go, keeps it easy and focused.
Above all - Keep the desire.
Then just make it all happen http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Now - on deck you scabrous dog, hands to the braces and look lively!!!
Bring us that horizon - then Drink up me hardies, Yoe Hoe

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ July 06, 2004, 08:14: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Carribean mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, it was by far the very best, but it was a century or two earlier than this time frame. But, due to an increasingly inward-looking court (China was quite possibly the most powerful empire in history at that time), they allowed their huge navy of massive ships (which dwarfed anything made by Europeans for centuries to come) to essentially rot away. They voluntarily gave up their chance to remain the dominant naval power in the Indian Ocean and Pacific Ocean regions. By the 15th century, China had almost no navy to speak of.

[ July 06, 2004, 07:02: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Carribean mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You could have them launched from ports onlly.

One of the main problems with converting se4 to a ships & sea game (apart from the extensive graphical modifications) has been the difficulty of representing "coastline". You can get round this, of course, by having nothing but open sea witrh a number of small islands (planets) in it. This seems to be the approach you are going for.

However, I wonder if it would be possible to
generate all non-oxygen planets with a massive sector damage ability, so that any ship sailing into "land" is instantly destroyed. You could have huge blocks of "mainland" like this, with oxygen planet "ports" on the edges (ie "the coast"). You could also have uncolonised "ports" which could be settled (caves and harbours to be turned into pirate/smuggler hideouts) and which, over time, would grow into full towns/ ports. (Assuming you build the right facilities and cargo units.)

Of course getting the map generator to place all these items sensibly would probably be nigh-impossible, so these maps would almost have to be hand-sculpted.

Re: Carribean mod
 

Dogscoff, your suggestion is far more practical for a quad map http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Hunting Images and then resizing; although, not a priority - will take time. However, what is several days effort compared to the overall effect it will have on the Vehicles, Components and Facilities.

Re: Carribean mod
 

I was thinking about that sort of thing Last night (the large areas of land that destroy ships if they run aground, I mean). I'm not sure how frustrating it would get, but different systems could have different wind factors, which would essentially move a ship in a random direction each turn (probably no more than 2 sectors, with the average being 1). That might turn out to be a dumb idea in the context of fun, though.

Anyway, yes, one thing at a time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I won't have a lot of time to look at it until Thursday, but I've started on the components.txt.

Oh, and also, I had some ideas about cloaking/scanners I'd like to throw out to see whether they would work or not. Remember, these are just ideas for the time being:

I was thinking that cloaking would be an inherent feature anyway, since they wouldn't have had system scanners or anything like that, and often they didn't know the enemy was upon them until they were literally upon them. If there is some way to add a range to sensors then that might be a way to do it - I'm thinking Crows Nest components and Lookout Tower facilities. That would cover visual cloaking.

The other kind I had in mind would be mainly for the pirate races, and would represent infiltrating ships. These wouldn't be as powerful as warships, and it would be inherent in the VehicleSize rather than an added component, with pirate vessels posing as trading ships that would go unmolested until their cargo and manifests were checked out at a checkpoint or a port (some sort of Security Technology tree for the colonials). This would be a good way to provide targets for Piracy Intel, and to check out any aforementioned "trade routes" that may or may not be added later.

I know I'm getting way ahead of myself, but I'm getting quite excited and ideas keep cropping up. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

The focus at the moment is still on the basic components, vehicles sizes and facilities, though, definitely. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif No really!

Re: Carribean mod
 

I'd be willing to run through your standard system file and make second Versions of them with wind or vice-versa.

Re: Carribean mod
 

That would be great, Narf. Cheers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

JLS- I'm a little confused about the sails. Would a ship require one of each type of sail? I suppose you could restrict each sail type to "one per vehicle", with the mainsail perhaps being the most important (most movement) and the others perhaps adding one movement (or combat movement) each. I was against this, originally, since it seemed to overcomplicate the matter, but the more I think about it the more I'm liking it.

The Salt Water Displacement factor can just be added into the vehiclesizes.txt - I'd imagine a negative "Movement Bonus" ability would work for the larger ships, though I'm not sure if it will work. I'll go test it.

Re: Carribean mod
 

Yeah, that works.

Re: Carribean mod
 

Also, I've been thinking a lot about crew components. Me? I love crew. I'd love to see more crew in SEIV period. Call me nuts, but watching a battlecruiser take out the life support on my Dreadnought is pretty annoying, but it doesn't really bother me. Having my oarsmen wiped out by grapeshot, my first mate taking a bullet in the face or (god forbid) watching my Ninja Pirates get decimated by scatter guns, well... it may just bring a tear to my eye.

And the beauty of this sort of time period is that crew are very vulnerable and very valuable - no master computers here. So, er, yeah, I just wanted to share that with you, and expect to see a lot of crew components.

One quick question regarding repair, though:

Okay, so you can set it so that certain components can only be repaired at a space yard. This would include most of the ship's structure, considering the difficulty they would have in repairing the ship's hull. But - could you have two different types of repair? I'm thinking "Ship's surgeon" for crew types, and "Jury Riggers" for simple ship components. Possible? Doesn't look like it, but maybe someone knows a way.

Re: Carribean mod
 

No, not possible unfortunately.

Re: Carribean mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you use a system that each sail gives a standard movement value you may apply that value to the most used sails and to add (se Bridge) for example to Mainsail all ships would have to have a mainsail. Perhaps (se4Life support) on the Jib and now you have the two required sails for all boats at that time a MUST INSTALL component. Other Components as for example (Captains Ability) etc could be the se4 Combat and ECM. The use of Organics to represent the Lifesupport can be added in many other ways to represent the ships crew complement.

- - - -

IFAIR.
A Man of War as I understand it - is a fighting Ship ranges from: Sloop, Frigate to the large double and Triple Deck (Ship of the Line)

The other sails I mentioned earlier apply to different Sail Configurations. for example:

A Sloop will have a Jib and Mainsail; However it could have a staysail flying along with the Jib if weather is calm, but a sloop will only have a few Topsails if any at all and never have a mizzen or spanker unless a make shift mizzen is used to stabilize the bow at anchorage or mooring.

A frigate could be is Ketch for example, and will have a third mast (mizzen mast) this will have all the sails mentioned and the Mizzen is key to a steady balance and less leeage at sea; However, even with a Frigate, the spars are such that Top Gallants are used only in chase.
(2 se4 Bridge) would require this Frigate to have two mainsals and this would indacate the Main Topgallants along with the one (LS) Jib http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Ship of the lines - with healthy Spars can Fly all sails in less then a moderate breeze; However the maneuverability will always be lacking. Hence their name (Line them up and Fire as she bears)
Example: (2 Bridge and 2 LS) would require Both Mainsails and the Jib along with the Foresails.
- - - -

Basically, after you decide on the most applicable Sail (other then the Main and Jib) assign your movement value to this. And in the Hulls themselves add the Modifiers any Modifiers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif , add other size related movements, Engine numbers etc. A slower Combat speed perhaps with an increase to Combat Turns in the Setting file, to have a slower battle with manuver and develope.

Also, it was rare for Large Ship to catch a Sleek ship - in the day.

= = = =
I suggest you research Man of War and their key support ships. To include Tactics, Ship Of The Line Fleeting of the day, and the Typical Baording Tactics of graple along side and then rush the target. Long boats rarly was worthy to make good time - even in the average sea and the Snipers on target would have a turkey shoot with such tactics. Longboats where good to row the ship out or into a harbor and to land a (SMALL Expeditions). British and American - I believe with the French and Dutch as well. Marines of the day had Surf Boats that would accompany the unit when attached (and this was for a land assault).
Some Ship-Of-the-Lines a Barge (SAIL LESS and a Cannon could be mounted) or a Cutter for Fleet inter ship activities (Post, Surgeon, Captain etc) and that could used for their onboard Marine detachment, but in Ship to Ship Combat, the main duty was repel and snipe.

If you research Ship on-hand for the day (around 1800 Napoleonic’s), you may find that the British had about 150 Man of War and French close (but less) to those numbers. The Spanish believed Bigger is better and had far less. The Dutch numbers were about the same, but most was of the Frigate and Sloop class - if I recall.

[ July 07, 2004, 07:31: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Carribean mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Cool. you would add the back ground of water and the like?
How about Islands and sea lanes, would you redo the Planet and warp pics. I think this would be neat, if done.

Narf, how would you represent the wind, would this be the random movement mentioned earlier?
- - -

Great, in that case, I will only have do the Resource Screen Menu Pics.

Have you decided on what 3 Resources you will have GF: is it Wood, Food and Gunpowder or Metal, Food and Wood? Or somewthing other?

[ July 07, 2004, 14:36: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Carribean mod
 

JLS:

I'm not too keen on the requirements of mainsails et al, since I was considering:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Name := Captain
Description := Every ship needs a Captain; he is the one who issues orders and runs the day-to-day operations of ship life. Comes complete with Cabin.
Pic Num := 1
Tonnage Space Taken := 5
Tonnage Structure := 5
Cost Minerals := 50
Cost Organics := 100
Cost Radioactives := 0
Vehicle Type := Ship
Supply Amount Used := 5
Restrictions := None
General Group := Vehicle Control
Family := 1
Roman Numeral := 0
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Number of Abilities := 2
Ability 1 Type := Ship Bridge
Ability 1 Descr := Acts as a ship's Bridge.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 0
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Boarding Defense
Ability 2 Descr := The Captain is usually the fiercest defender in a boarding attack. (+5 Def)
Ability 2 Val 1 := 5
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None

Name := Food Storage
Description := Without barrels of salted meat and precious fruit to combat scurvy, no ship would make it more than a few days without a decrease in effectiveness.
Pic Num := 2
Tonnage Space Taken := 10
Tonnage Structure := 10
Cost Minerals := 200
Cost Organics := 400
Cost Radioactives := 0
Vehicle Type := Ship
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := None
General Group := Vehicle Control
Family := 2
Roman Numeral := 0
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Number of Abilities := 2
Ability 1 Type := Ship Life Support
Ability 1 Descr := Acts as Life Support.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 0
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Supply Storage
Ability 2 Descr := Provides storage for 2000 units of supply.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 2000
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None

Name := Ship Crew
Description := No ship can operate without a crew - and their living quarters.
Pic Num := 3
Tonnage Space Taken := 20
Tonnage Structure := 20
Cost Minerals := 300
Cost Organics := 500
Cost Radioactives := 0
Vehicle Type := Ship
Supply Amount Used := 100
Restrictions := None
General Group := Vehicle Control
Family := 3
Roman Numeral := 0
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Number of Abilities := 2
Ability 1 Type := Ship Crew Quarters
Ability 1 Descr := Acts as Crew Quarters.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 0
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Boarding Defense
Ability 2 Descr := During boarding actions, the crew are usually the first to defend the ship. (+25 Def)
Ability 2 Val 1 := 25
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You could possibly practically force players to have a mainsail on each ship by giving it the best ability, with the jib a close second, and limiting the number per ship to one.

So, you could have a mainsail that gave you 3 standard movement, a jib that gave you 2, and then the extra sails would add 1. Or if that made ships a little too fast, have the extra sails add other bonuses, like combat movement.

If we go this way, we can limit the number of 'engines' on each ship in the vehiclesize.txt to the numbers you suggested (so, a sloop would have max engines := 2 (possibly 3)), but also give each ship a Movement Bonus ability (perhaps even give some inherent combat movement bonus abilities) with smaller ships having a positive and larger ships having a negative, to account for the water displacement - which you could offset again with different copper lining components for each ship class.

Edit: Or another way to do this would be to give smaller ships lower numbers for Engines Per Move.

[ July 07, 2004, 07:41: Message edited by: Goatfoam ]

Re: Carribean mod
 

Whatever floats your boat http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Only suggestions, I will keep them coming from time to time.

Re: Carribean mod
 

What do you think? Do you think it would work that way? I've been cracking on with the component file this morning, once the first draft is done I'll email it your way, see what you think.

Re: Carribean mod
 

Its funny, a while back, like three years ago I suggested something simular. I even went so far as to draw up detailed concept for how one could turn SEIV into a world conquest game. I sent it to MM but have never heard anything about it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Carribean mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks, I would like to see your work.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I may not be able to view it until this evening.

My E-Mail is in on the post tabs.

Re: Carribean mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What if you gave all of the "shipyard repair only" components the Emergency Propulsion ability? Or is the only-reparable-at-spaceyards setting hard-coded for actual specific components rather than specific abilities?

Re: Carribean mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I am sorry, I did not realize you were Moding the 1400s Caribbean. My feeble mind was in the 18 Century, and here I am suggesting Ships, Weapons and Sail Configurations - that were not even invented for Hundreds of years later http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

This explains why you were referring to row boats assaulting Spanish Caravels, Nao’s and Carracks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I am somewhat familiar with the organized Hanseatic Leagues endeavors in that time frame were a single mast Cogs could rule; However, I am unsure about the time frame of the west Indies Buccaneer, but this may have been closer to the 17 Century? If so, then Sloops, Barks, Galleons, Frigates followed by rated Ship of the Lines .. would be dominant and along with Sail Plans, Weapons etc. we discussed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ July 07, 2004, 14:20: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Carribean mod
 

Well it seems alot of people are interested in this idea as well...unfortunately I don't have the time to help in quite that amount. I will love to bounce ideas in on occasion. And it looks like there are others as easily interested as I.

More ideas:

1. Spyglass/Telescope = Sensors/Scanning
2. Sextant = Bonus Movement due to good nav.
a) Compass
b) Astrolabe
3. Charts/Maps = Bonus Movement due to good maps.
4. Sharpshooters = Armor/component defeating attack, ie attack captain, first mate, etc...
5. Bilge Pump = Temporary Repair
6. Powder Magazine = ??? Very Bad if hit ???
7. Grenadiers = BP with grenades
8. Greek Fire Projector = Ancient/ruin tech
9. Carpenters/Shipwrights = Repair/Build Ships

-------------------------------------------------
List of Guns Crew Weight(lb) Volume(cu.ft.)
-------------------------------------------------
1 lb swivelgun 1 crew 75 5
2 lb swivelgun 2 crew 150 7
3 lb Cannon 2 crew 600 15
6 lb Cannon 3 crew 1700 40
9 lb Cannon 4 Crew 3000 75
12 lb Cannon 6 Crew 4000 100
16 lb Cannon 7 Crew 6000 150
24 lb Cannon 8 Crew 8000 200
32 lb Cannon 10 Crew 12000 300
42 lb Cannon 12 Crew 16000 400
68 lb Cannon 12 Crew 20000 500

All smoothbore, black powder, muzzle loading.
1860-1875 Rifled Guns appear...
-------------------------------------------------

LS and Crew has always been dependent on size of the ship...which should still be true in regards to the sailing of the ship. Is it possible to put a crew requirement on a weapon?

To bad we can't use the troops as boarding parties...that way they could be customized with weapons, equipment, armor, and size and stuff...Something to think about for SE5 as well.

Kana

[ July 07, 2004, 21:41: Message edited by: Kana ]

Re: Carribean mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's what I was thinking. I'll test it as soon as possible - I was thinking of perhaps having most ship components as "shipyard repair only", with crew being 'repairable' by a Surgeon component. Perhaps at higher technology levels there would be another component that would allow field-repairs of the other components.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It may prove to be a slightly bigger job, but I think the game could incorporate all of this. Starting off in the 15th century, and as technology progresses, leading up to 17th.

Kana: Some great ideas there, thanks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Carribean mod
 

Great stuff, indeed - Kana http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Re: Carribean mod
 

The sails components are in danger of becoming a little too overcomplicated, I think.

A better approach might be to have three distinct types of sails: Mainsails (Standard movement), Lateen sails (bonus movement) and Foresails (combat movement).

Or do you think this would have the opposite effect and oversimplify it?

Re: Carribean mod
 

Absolutely, three (types) is fine - Start small, then test and you can always add more later http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Keep in mind, when you release your beta - you can expect a barrage of requests and suggestions and this may be when the Complications really begin http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif (so for now - easy as she goes, mate)

[ July 07, 2004, 20:23: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Carribean mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What if you gave all of the "shipyard repair only" components the Emergency Propulsion ability? Or is the only-reparable-at-spaceyards setting hard-coded for actual specific components rather than specific abilities? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It is in the abilities. The problem with that is that all it means is that you need a space yard somewhere in the same sector in order to repair. Any component can still repair the components. All it does is mean you can only repair at port (assuming only facilities or bases could have Space Yard abilities, not ships). It is close enough, but does not allow for two different sets of repair abilities (such as "repairing" crew vs. repairing actual components).

Re: Carribean mod
 

Fyron:

That may be the way to go. I'm of the mind that most components would need to be repaired in a port anyway, given the period. As for the crew, I'll see what I can do with it. Some way to "tow" a vehicle would be nice, so you could lug ships with zero movement back to port, but that looks impossible too. It may be a case of allowing the sole repair of the mainsail in order to achieve some movement per turn, though when you add the wind factor of systems into this, it could get really quite frustrating.

Another point with the wind thing - it would literally blow ships out of port every turn, wouldn't it? Is there any way to avoid this? The idea may need to be scrapped, if that's the case.

Finally, cannons! I was thinking of using mounts for the different poundage of the guns. Do you guys think that would be the best way to handle it, or would it be better to have each poundage of cannon as a different weapon, and then the type of shot as the mount (as in, chainshot, grapeshot, etc)? I can't quite decide which I prefer.

Almost done with the first draft. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Carribean mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Depends are you going to have Shields to represent Boarding Nets?
If no Shield at all, then you do not need Shield Damaging GRAPE SHOT - I guess.

How about Skip Armor?
How about Weapon Damage or Increase Reload Time(perhaps round)
Or Engine damage to represent CHAIN SHOT against the Sails, Spars and Rigging.

How would mounts handle abilities- if you commit most Weapons to (one) and then to mounts?
DEATH STALKER MAY BEST TO ANSWER THIS QUESTION http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I Assumed along these lines: With Kana's numbers though.
Name := Round Shot 4#
Name := Round Shot 6#
Name := Round Shot 9#


Name := Round Shot 16# (Large Mount)
"~"

Name := Round Shot 24# (Heavy Mount)
"~"

Name := Round Shot 32# (Massive Mount)
"~"

In general - the same with the rest of the Weapons inventory (less on some more on a Carronaid. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ July 08, 2004, 03:57: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Carribean mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The only ability that can be affected by a mount is shield point generation (normal and phased). Every other ability is totally unaffected by using a mount on the component.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope, no way to avoid it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[ July 08, 2004, 03:55: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Carribean mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My point is Fyron, if for example GRAPE SHOT and Shield Damage (was his intent) and (now) also named as a mount.

How could he have the Ability of the original (ROUND poundage Shot) after the enhanced Mount to GRAPE Shot.

ROUND Shot 9# (core weapon to be enhanced) and if that weapons original intent was (Weapons damage) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

If you think that was complicated: (Now what about the (CHAIN Shoot) and he may have wanted (Engine Damage) for that weapon - NOW named as a mount that enhances the Above. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I do not think you are saying that he may have Both Abilities on one Gun (deriving from just the Mounts alone) are you? - when each ability may have been intended for only each individual gun.
- - - -
As I said, unless he now Combines the abilities into his stated one Core Gun "(Round poundage Cannon)" - or he drops many of the se4 abilities http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ July 08, 2004, 05:00: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Carribean mod
 

It's a real shame about the wind. There's always the open sea systems, though.

Boarding Nets for shields - brilliant. I was really stuck thinking of a representative for shields, but now I have it. Thanks a lot. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

It looks like it might indeed be easier to have the round types as the components, and the weight (in pounds) as the mounts. For now at least. So I'll get cracking on that tomorrow - as you said JLS, best to start simple. Good advice. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Carribean mod
 

Ah, Damage Types, not Abilities... Damage Types can neither be added by nor affected by mounts in any way.

Re: Carribean mod
 

OH I forgot suggested loading times for the guns...

Gun RateOfFire in Seconds Max Range(Yards)
-------------------------------------------------
1 lb swivelgun 20 1500
2 lb swivelgun 20 1700
3 lb Cannon 20 1800
6 lb Cannon 20 1900
9 lb Cannon 20 2000
12 lb Cannon 20 2000
16 lb Cannon 45 2100
24 lb Cannon 45 2400
32 lb Cannon 45 2500
42 lb Cannon 60 2600
68 lb Cannon 90 2300
-------------------------------------------------

Times and ranges are subjective of course...given just to give you some idea how they compare...I think there should be more of a variation. And the times are with a full gun crew, but they seem alittle low. As for Damage Comparison I would tie that into Shot size, the bigger the pounder...well you know... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Also don't forget they will lose velocity at range and not do as much damage...so it should be a sliding scale based on range. Kinda like an APB.

Also here are some early period weapons:

Weapon MaxRng ROF Mass Volume Crew
-------------------------------------------------
Scorpion 450 20 250 12 2
Ballista
w/bolt 500 30 1500 150 3
w/stone 300 30 1500 150 3
Onager
w/stone 400 60 2500 250 3
w/greek-fire 400 60 2500 250 3
Greek Fire Projector 25 2 1500 60 1
16lb Bombard 2000 45 4000 100 12
-------------------------------------------------
Scorpion/Ballista: Light double-armed catapults like giant crossbows. The Scorpion is a small dart thrower, while the Ballista is a larger Version that can also throw stones.

Onager: A Heavy single-armed catapult designed for indirect fire. It could throw a 30lb. stone 400 yars, or hurl a jug of Greek fire.

Greek Fire Projector: Essentially a Byzantine era flamethrower. Squirting a buring jellied fuel at its target.

Bombard: Early (Middle Ages) cannon.


Would you also like Weights/Volume on Ammunition?
Would you like Costs for all of the above...?

Of course all is subjective...for use in comparison. How this translates to SE4...is...well...?????

Next a small list of Improved Smoothebore and Rifled Muzzle Loading cannons...

[ July 10, 2004, 16:14: Message edited by: Kana ]

Re: Carribean mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I couldn't help but pipe in here. I'm in the Coast Guard, currently underway here in the Caribbean (our damn water makers just broke, so we have no fresh water.. arg..), and the CO [captain, commanding officer, etc.] recently addressed copper-bottoming in his night orders. Copper bottoming may or may not have had an effect on speed. It sounds to me like a possibility. However, the real reason for covering the hull of a ship with copper was to keep the teredo worm away from the wood. The teredo worm, a.k.a. shipworm, seaworm, or sea termite, is exactly what its nickname suggests: a wood-hungry sea creature, and was responsible for many lost ships that sunk simply because a mollusk (the name worm is misleading) ate through too many parts of the hull! I think the magical date was around 1760 that this became the accepted solution. This is the source of the phrase, "a copper-bottomed investment", which means that an investment is a sure success. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wasn't that in Master and Commander? (if anyone saw it... what a good movie!)

[ July 22, 2004, 23:12: Message edited by: Yimboli ]

Re: Carribean mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">SO, Fyron if I have a laser with no damage type ability.

Are you saying I can add the Mineral Genration ABILITY to that Laser with only the MOUNT?

Re: Carribean mod
 

No. As per prior post: <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Mounts can not add abilities, nor can they remove them, nor affect them unless they are shield generating abilities.

[ July 11, 2004, 05:14: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Carribean mod
 

Personal life has kicked my face off, so for the next week or so I'm going to.. well, I don't know what I'm going to do. But it won't involve the computer, most likely. This will still happen, I just need to sort things out first. Thanks for all the great suggestions so far. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Carribean mod
 

Hey, I'm sure I speak for everyone here...we all understand, and have been there. Mods, like games, don't happen overnight. We as real people with real lives...do this as a hobby, and we dedicate time as we have it.

Kana