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Re: Rumor: Kerry & Edwards Want to Ban SEIV
WHAT is ultra liberal...
and this liberal labeling system... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif |
Re: Rumor: Kerry & Edwards Want to Ban SEIV
I'm a liberal (well I vote liberal, I'm not a party member) and I'm not against SEIV or wargames.
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Kerry is a war hero. He at least deserves respect for that.
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There are some slasher, torture and rape games in circulation (not sold over the counter anywhere I think) which are stretching the “freedom of speech” a bit far according to my taste.
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yes: wargames and simulations are ok
NO: I hear of sex games (though I've never seen any) which I see no need for. |
Re: Rumor: Kerry & Edwards Want to Ban SEIV
Being "in favor of" could mean that some reporter asked "Would you be in favor of limiting the sales of graphically violent games to children" and they answered "yes".
Thats quite abit off from a bill being brought to the houses for a vote. Its the wording of such bills that need to be watched. Definetly, if you see anything along those lines, let us know. We might need a letter-writing campaign. I know of alot of companys, game communitys, newsGroups, and wargaming conventions that would be VERY interested in making sure that such a bill doesnt slip thru unnoticed. |
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Censorship in almost any degree is IMO a bad thing. If we don't want our kids to play violent video games or see objectionable content on TV, both of these things (as well as most other media)have an ON/OFF switch. Consenting adults should be able to view anything that doesn't violate the personal rights of others (kiddie porn, etc.).
Now whether that stuff should be sold to minors, well that's quite a different thing entirely. </$.02> |
Re: Rumor: Kerry & Edwards Want to Ban SEIV
SO, into this discussion let's inject the Patriot Act. It is the other side of the coin, no?
That is, on the one hand it is alleged (falsely, I think) that Kerry is going to censor games - which would be one type of restriction of personal liberty. But the Patriot Act is one of the greatest invasions of privacy/liberty the US has ever known. Discuss. [grin] |
Re: Rumor: Kerry & Edwards Want to Ban SEIV
Computer games industry is a business that worth a billions. Assume 30-50% of games contain violence etc, and it's still billions of $$$. Banning them is equal to banning cigarettes containing nicotine(sp?). This law won't be supported by industry leaders and it means it has no chances.
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Re: Rumor: Kerry & Edwards Want to Ban SEIV
The worth of the indistry is probably a worthy point.
"Daddy, are we a Repubcracy or a Democblic? "Neither son, we are a Capitalism" Sometimes I think that drives the decisions of my government alittle too much. On the other hand, the times that battles have won against the wishes of big business, it has almost always been parents fighting for the protection of their children. The powerful nemesis of Big Business is United Parents. [ July 08, 2004, 15:16: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ] |
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What have we come to? 20 years ago a person could ride his law mower over to the neighbors yard to talk. Now a days if you riding lawn mower so much as touches the street with you on it, your sited, arrested, and fined. 20 years ago you could spank your child when they got out of hand, now a days if you so much as look crossed eyed at them, the state takes them, arrests you, sends you to jail, and you never see your kids again unless you have mega $$$$$ to fight the GD FU system. 20 years ago you could watch what you wanted without government interferance, now a days we have the V-chip. WTF is the GD world coming to? 20 years ago you spit a peace of gum out the car window, do that today and its a CRIME punishable by a manadory $500.00 fine, and up to 1 year in jail. WTF????? (Am fighting this one right now.) 20 years ago you could take a bath, water your lawn, and drink from the foset, do that today and your labeled anti-environmental. You can only take a three minute shower once a week, water your lawn only on the third monday of the month and only if you have permit, and because of chemicals used by the Chinese in the production of watering hoses, you cannot drink from them. 20 year ago most of the cops new your name, today, they only want to know how much your worth. |
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I think almost all of those things, aside from being quite exaggerated (for effect?), are based on local ordinances or are actualyl voluntary. That is, these generally are laws that the locals in your community passed.
Some are voluntary. The "V-Chip" never really caught on, and it's up to parents to implement. Last I heard, the numbers of parents who had opted for the V-chip TVs were extremely small in number. Some of these are egregious exaggerations. The "nowadays if you so much as look crossed eyed at [your kids] them, the state takes them..." and the "You can only take a three minute shower once a week..." are clearly not the case. And, frankly, would never pass in this country. But, hey, you can go ahead and blame me for all the country's problems. I'm a former libertarian and now one of those Liberals ...and damn proud of it. You know them, those folks who stand for liberty, freedom from tyranny, civil rights, and opportunity for all and all that? Having thrown my bomb, I'll just duck the inevitable flames that are about to erupt... Alarik |
Re: Rumor: Kerry & Edwards Want to Ban SEIV
http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/fun.gam....ap/index.html
Maybe the rumor originated there... ( I feel bad because of the topic of my first post in this forum ) |
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Why can't parents take responsibility for their kids?
Run your home as a fascist dictatorship, NOT your country. |
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You can not teach a child responsiblity if that child is spoiled rotten. No matter who comes here and says that you can, and that you should never punish a child, is either dulutional, or living in wonder land. I tell you what, a kid throws a tempor tantrum 20 years ago his mom would spank him and tempor tantrum was over. Today if she looks at him in a threatening manor, the child is yanked from her care and put into the foster care system. This tells the child that they can do what ever they want and get away with it. Then one day they are 18 and get into some trouble.... wanna know what happens then? Yup you guessed it, they go to jail and blame their mom and dad for all their problems. I can site many examples of this in my family alone. So those left wing, count to 10, time out, never spank your child, always talk soothingly, democrats can kiss the fattest whitest part of my buttocks. |
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And no offense, but many people do not agree with the liberal point of view on a great many topics. And for the record, I think we need liberal ideas and laws, but over the Last twelve years the liberal laws that have been enacted have only limited our freedoms and free choices. The liberals that force fed us these laws I think we can do without. |
Re: Rumor: Kerry & Edwards Want to Ban SEIV
Actually, the genesis of such child protection laws are generally attempts to prevent egregious child abuse. Maybe it's just me, but when I hear about parents beating the snot out of their kids such that they break bones or inflict permanent injuries, or when they lock them in basements as punishment for days at a time, or any number of other awful things that they do to kids who CANNOT protect themselves, then, yes, I do support such laws.
What I think you're reacting against is the notion that such laws are either (1) too far -reaching or (2) enofrced beyond all reasonablness. Both of which I would agree with you. Such laws should be limited in scope and application and should have a satefy check in the courts. And, I think the latter does occur often. Not sure aboutt he former. |
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"left wing, count to 10, time out, never spank your child, always talk soothingly, democrats can kiss the fattest whitest part of my buttocks." No thanks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif FWIW, my sister never has hit her kids, they're just fine. Igot spanked twice in my entire childhoold, I did pretty darn good despite all odds. Perhaps something else is going on in the families you mention? Maybe it's a self versus community issue (as most reactionary v. progressive issues are at core). |
Re: Rumor: Kerry & Edwards Want to Ban SEIV
Just a guess, but this was on Fox "news" right?
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Seriously, in my generation, there was always one of the parents at home to 'raise' the kids. (And the parent that worked made enough to support a familly of 4.) Today, due to the extremely fast rising cost of living, both parents need to work just to make ends meet. More taxes, rising prices on 'necessities' and lower wages (based on the cost of living) is destroying the social structure. Oh, and in case none of you have noticed, within 5-10 years it's going to get extremely worse. The worlds 'infrastructure' (highways, bridges, sewers, etc.) is crumbling at an allarming rate. 50+ years of 'Patching' things that needed to be replaced is going to come to a climax. Mark my words, things are going to get very 'Interesting' and this is indeed a curse. [/babble mode off] Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
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I think you should do some research on the subject of what CPS (Child Protective Services) has done to people. It is rather frightening. In 90% of the cases in Clark County Last year CPS removed children without cause. 10% of the removals were for cause but only 1% were for actual cause.
The agency makes money by: 1. Investigating any and all complaints wether they are a real issue or just someone making them up. 2. Taking the children out of their homes and placing them into foster care. 90% of the time without justifyable cause. 3. Force the parents to pay for parenting classes, take anger managment, and pay "child Support" to the state even if the removal of their child was in error. 4. Keep the family in the system and force the parents to pay for and submit to repeated home visits, inspections, and audits. 90% of the people who lost their children to the state CPS system Last year should not have according to the law. Case in point, my neighbor was accused of beating his child when his boy crashed his quad and his dad took him to the ER. The doctors called CPS and a case worker came to the hospital and talked with the boy without ever notifying the parents. She told the boy that she "knew" that his father was abuse and that she was going to protect him. The boy had never been hit by his father, only yelled at occationaly and that was all of the justification that this case worker needed to yank Matt out of his home. They charged the parents with child endagerment for letting him ride his quad without proper supervision, child abuse for yelling at him on occassion, and child neglect for leaving him at home during the summer without adult supervision. They also attepted to charge them with child abandonment but that was dropped. Matt is 15 years old now, and was 12 at the time this happened. He continously denied that he was ever abused or subjected to abuse but was ignored. While in foster care he told us all that EVERY ONE of the children in his foster home regarless of their age were pulled from good homes without cause. This was cooberated by a state senate investigation back in 1994, 95. At that time they were ordered to disconiue the "whole sale" methods of taking children out of carring homes over minor infractions. CPS, having no oversight committe, and answering to no state agency ignored this senate mandate and continued to do business as usual. For Matt's parents, it cost them nearly 20 grand before they were able to get Matt back and they are still fighting and paying. Matt has also developed the mentality that he can get whatever he wants now simply by threatening to call CPS. His father is at wits end and is about to divorce his wife to get away from the BS. And she has said that she wants to file with the state to release her son from her custody. I forget the term. All of this because of CPS. And for the record, he was being supervised, he was racing at PIR at the time of his accident. So again the state had no right to file charges, but did so any ways because of the CPS case worker who I might add is one evil sick B***H. And this is the norm not the exception. |
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I see your point, and in this case it definitely sounds messed up.
I think we agree that the *implementation* of such laws, at a minimum, needs to be changed. Oversight, proportionality, and checks and balances need to be implemented. However, I think, from what I've read, we might also agree that children need some form of protection from the occasional terrible abuse. Just as there are plenty of stories of families who get screwed under CPS, there are just as many if not more about kids who are so abused that they are killed, permanently injured/multilated, or psychologically screwed up beyond beleif. In fact, on a compleletly anecdotal level, I have met a number of kids who fit into those categories who would have been well served by a third party intervention early in their lives. So...the question then becomes, how to balance the need to prevent outrageous abuses with the right of parents to raise their kids as they see fit? Is there an answer? Not sure...certainly not an easy one, of course... But thats the real crux of the problem, no? Not the wholesale banning of outside intervention, I would say. edit: snipped out long quote [ July 08, 2004, 17:30: Message edited by: alarikf ] |
Re: Rumor: Kerry & Edwards Want to Ban SEIV
In a related note, there is a vote on the Patriot act possibly coming up:
Patriot Act foes force House vote Thursday, July 8, 2004 Posted: 10:46 AM EDT (1446 GMT) WASHINGTON (AP) -- Lawmakers who say portions of the USA Patriot Act went too far are taking aim at its provision that made it easier for investigators to learn what people are reading -- despite a veto threat from the White House. The House planned to vote Thursday on a proposal by Rep. Bernard Sanders, I-Vermont, that would prevent the government from using the Patriot Act to demand records from book stores and libraries. The election-season showdown is the latest over the law, which Bush has sought to expand but which Democrats and some conservative Republicans say has infringed on individual rights. ...more at: http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/....ap/index.html |
Re: Rumor: Kerry & Edwards Want to Ban SEIV
I should note that child protection laws are there to protect a child from abuse. Parents who abuse their children know what they are doing.
You never beat the **** out of a child. In all the time that I was growing up I was only spanked a few times, and never more than two or three swats. When I was in the first grade a kid kicked me in face as we layed in the library reading books. His name was Darrel and his uncle was the school principal. He kicked me once, and when he went to do it a second time I bit his leg resulting in some discomfort for him. I did not break the skin, nor did stop him from kicking me. I was in fact kicked many more times. However two days later I was taken to the principals office and spanked by the Principal for biting. He hit me seven times with a big wooden pattle. After school I went home, and as we ate dinner, toco's, I told my mom and dad that I was spanked at school. The story gets a whole lot worse but I am not going to get into it. Needless to say that was the worst beating I ever received by an adult, and it was committed by a school offical. Parents who occationally spank their child or raise their voice at times are not evil, abusive parents. They are simply parents trying to do the best they can within the own little world and to be frank I sincerely believe that the state should stay the hell out of their lives and go after the drug using, homeless parents who would rather take a hit off a crack pipe than feed their kids. Or the parents that are beating their kids. |
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personally i agree with atrocities 99 percent
however i also agree with mr gervais however the underlying reason for these problems can easily be traced to one root cause a statistical analysis of the jobs per person per population will quickly show that as the population of the united states has grown from 1944 to 2004 the number of available quality jobs per person has declined (quality is defined as a job capable of supporting a family of 4 being father mother 2 children 1 pet) i have come to the conclusion that the underlying cause of much of the diffuculties of the usa and many other countries is overpopulation i dont mean in regards to space as take a area im familiar with san antonio texas from 1944 to 2004 the city of san antonio has grown massivly in 60 years they have changed from a pop of a few hundred thousand to a million not including the outlying areas outside the metro area this is a growth of over ten times in 3 generations (one generation being typically 20 years i think) as our population increases the jobs that can support those people keep getting split down to smaller less pauying jobs there is a point of diminishing returns and the world did reach it in the 70's the chinese have realized te problem for themselves and instituted a program to reduce their popuation however i have yet to see what results they have acheived (if any) in providing incentives for one child families to understand this problem on a more gut level please read ann mccaferies pegasus in flight |
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India is trying to enact such a policy, but as the "largest democracy in the world" it's very hard to see how it will ever bear fruit. |
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But, I am confused by the Last sentence: "to be frank I sincerely believe that the state should ...go after ...the parents that are beating their kids." The hard part, from a public policy point of view, is how do we do that while still not trampling on personal freedoms? |
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Seriously, in my generation, there was always one of the parents at home to 'raise' the kids. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmmm I guess everything has its pros and cons. I have 2 boys. One is handicapped. We were never people to complain, he brought us joy and solidarity. But it did have effects. Both are mid-20s now and all thru their lives there has ALWAYS been a parent (or grandparent) home. I mean ALWAYS as in pretty much 24 hours a day 7 days a week. When people meet my kids I get asked alot what I did right (seriously). I had answers, but had never considered this. I think I will add to my responses that my handicapped child might have forced us to make some accidentally right choices. It was hard to do but maybe it was a good thing. As for the punishment thing, yes they both were spanked. Id make a statement, and they always got to disagree (once), I might agree or discuss or Id just say it again and THAT was it. Making me or mom say something a third time was dangerous territory. [ July 08, 2004, 18:02: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ] |
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Ah I was just ranting......
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i personally would loe to see the usa quadruple the tax deduction for a single child family
double the present deduction for a 2 child family and after 3 children start halving it every additional child and i feel that government programs should operate the same way i realize this is a harsh view however i feel this is the only way such measures will be effective in a society like ours where the religeous mores of so many are still stuck in the ancient times when more population was needed to allow the species to continue to survive and the attitude of the world owes me a living for having babies (see government programs for mothers (indigent or otherwise) oh and a few other incentives govt assistance for vasectomies and govt assistance for birth control manufacturers to reduce the costs of such items (really bad whn im suggesting this stuff and im from a 4 child family eh!) |
Re: Rumor: Kerry & Edwards Want to Ban SEIV
to gandalf : hi dad http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
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I had alot of pat comments that my sons friends used to get a kick out of. Like "Dont you look at me in that tone of voice" for dirty looks. Or if he was looking at me like I was crazy for something Id just done Id say "remember that some kids dont have to put up with parents like this" (meaning some kids dont have parents, appreciate it) And when things really got heated to the point that it looked like they were going to explode Id say "If your thinking of hitting me then go ahead. But remember, its only going to happen ONCE so this better be the best possible reason you can think of" (for the Last decade or so I wasnt sure I would win, but I was sure it would only happen once) -- (sig line) I like the way the bee's raise kids. Pamper them when they are little. When they become teens you lock them in a room with food. They come out as adults ready to go to work. [ July 08, 2004, 18:17: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ] |
Re: Rumor: Kerry & Edwards Want to Ban SEIV
Heck, I've always thought people should have to have licenses to have children! Make 'em pass tests and all that...
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif [ July 08, 2004, 19:49: Message edited by: alarikf ] |
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heh, I hear you AT, I went to a school that had the 'strap' as it was called, and I was the unfortunate victom of un unjust straping to - unfortunaly I was so shamed by the whole thing I threw away the letter to my parents and didnt tell them, which was absolutlty stupid, as mum would have gone in there guns loaded ready to do battle (we were prety honest kids so she would have belived my side of the story, unlike hte principle)
I for one agree with a good smack on the fleshy part of the backside, but becuase of my unfortunate expericanes at school I would never let anyone disiplin my kids, (when i get some) a parent tends to know a when there kid is telling the truth better than anyone else. as for limiting the number of kids to a family, I duno, its a hard one. it can end up just restricting those good law abiding citizzens and the not so gret citz who dont give a damn have large familys whos kids dont give a damn and the whole thing cycles ending up with more people who are not good citz than those who are. |
Re: Rumor: Kerry & Edwards Want to Ban SEIV
If that's true about CPS, Attro, then it is a corrupt organization out of control that needs shutting down. Maybe some laws need to be modified. It doesn't amount to a disagreement about abuse on either end of the scale (child abuse, or parent abuse by an agency) - I trust none of us, and no honest and sane people want either. It also doesn't fall under "those darn liberals are to blame".
Parents don't have any way to punish their children besides hitting them are in sad need of help in parenting. That's where an even worse crisis is in this country - too many parents without enough understanding of how to be a good parent. PvK |
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As for the Patriot Act, IMO it's far worse than airliner kamikaze attacks, in a different way, of course. If anyone believed George W. Bush was defending our freedom, well he surrendered that war with that act, and became a far worse enemy to freedom than any terrorists.
PvK |
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Eventually, with increases in urbanization, other countries won't have population problems either. And when their 'baby boomers' reach adulthood each and every one will experience a culteral revolution, perhaps even a political one. That's the way it works. As for this law, don't forget that the courts have consistantly came to the side of the publishers and developers on grounds of free speach. Unjust laws do get passed in the U.S., sometimes. We have a system of checks and balances that corrects this, given time. I would like to ask, alarikf, why you switched from Libertarian to 'liberal' (whatever that means, you have indicated that you favor the Democrats)? Most people I know who were Libertarians in their youth no longer call themselves such. They may swithc to one of the main parties, may go further into the extreme and favor anarchism, or may come up with their own names for their beliefs, like Anarchial Capitalism, or somesuch. |
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Hell, if you think you have overpopulation in the US, well you can always come up here to Canada. We're in need of some good, decent people. After all, we're a larger country than the States, and with about 10% the population! No worries about overcrowding here http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif
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Rumor: Kerry & Edwards Want to Ban SEIV
Before you freak out, know that it will be a cold dark day in hell before I will ever give up my games. They can pry my Space Empires IV disk out of my cold dead hands.
Ok here it is: I was watching the news tonight and they mentioned that Kerry and Edwards are in favor of banning or limiting the production and or sale of violent video games. What are violent video games you ask, well according to the news, violent video games are games that promote or have violence as in death, destruction, battle, war, domination, etc. These types of video games would be under the Kerry Edwards administration be targeted for censorship and or Banned entirely. I am afraid that games like Space Empires would be included in this ultra liberal banning and so would most of the games we currently enjoy because they depict violence and war. Now I know this is a broad spectrum of games, but keep in mind these people don't care. They use lables to sell their way of thinking, and unfortunetly as much as we ALL know that Space Empires is NOT a violent game, they do because of their liberal labeling system. Now I have searched Google, yahoo, and many others trying to find sources that would cooberate the news channels statement and I have found NONE. So at this point I am willing to chalk this up to email rumors and the crappy channel 12 news eagerness to stir up controversy. If this rumor is true, and any one can post a link to anything relating to it, please do so. |
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Sounds pretty false http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif but if it does happen do not worry.
I'm sure the English and European Space Empires Fans will be willing to smuggle Aaron Hall (and any other Americans) to Europe and allow him to Publish and release SEV here. I will be more than prepared to set up a Space Empires Black market and make sure you Americans get your fix of War, Violence and Dominion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
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Will they want to ban nasty brutal sports like american football with all that violent running into and knocking over each other, battling to win and dominating the other team?. Unlikely as they would lose their precious votes from sportsloving americans.
edit: anyway they probably have in mind that the only people who play the games they oppose are teenagers who can't vote. [ July 08, 2004, 12:31: Message edited by: Randallw ] |
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With these two, one never knows Randallw, one simply does not know. They freak me out.
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Sometimes i am incredibly thankful about living in england, although even our government is taking things a bit far in some measures it's now taking. The whole debate on a Ban on Smacking children and numerous other issues is getting quite worrying...
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