Stupid troop transports that don\'t drop troops...
 

Maybe a subject that has been exposed in details before, but I haven't found answer to my question in the FAQ.

Here are my new armed troop transports :
(unmodded 1.91 game)

http://diesel2035.free.fr/misc/trooptransport.jpg

- They have the "capture planet" ship strategy
- They are in a fleet with "planet capture" strategy.
- They have troop inside.

I sent several attack this turn, all of them were sucessfull : planet defenses have been destroyed and ennemy ships too. But after all defenses are cleaned, the troop transports stay away from the planet and don't attack. (see picture)

So what can be the problem with those f$%@#'in ships ?

Small detail : I'm not at war with the attacked empire, only in a "treaty none" state...

Re: Stupid troop transports that don\'t drop troops...
 

It looks a lot like your ships have taken on the role of warships, and not transports...

Re: Stupid troop transports that don\'t drop troops...
 

is the ship hull important for the role ? they have "capture planet strategy" !
If they are considered as warships, why don't they attack ?

Re: Stupid troop transports that don\'t drop troops...
 

??? try ships break fleet strategy setting ???

R these ships refits? refits keep prior strategy.

Is the design type a transport? it could help the break strategy setting?

Have you asked Fyron?

Re: Stupid troop transports that don\'t drop troops...
 

To summarize:

(1) If this ship with troops is in a fleet, make sure the fleet's strategy is set to "Capture Planet". If it isn't, then...

(2) Make sure the fleet's strategy is one that allows ships to break formation. (when a ship breaks formation, it reverts to its individual strategy. In this case, the troop ship's individual strategy must be "Capture Planet" (please verify).

(3) And this is the part I'm not sure of: Seems like I've heard somewhere that troops won't be dropped if there are active platforms there. Someone else will need to confirm this.

(My problem is I usually glass the planet before the troops can be dropped http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )

Re: Stupid troop transports that don\'t drop troops...
 

As warships, they would attack... and then sit back when the defenses are gone...

Re: Stupid troop transports that don\'t drop troops...
 

- They break formation because they don't join the combat with other ships.
- They have "capture planet" individual strategy

Is it possible they don't attack because I'haven't declared war "officialy" to the ennemy empire ?

Re: Stupid troop transports that don\'t drop troops...
 

The best I seem able to do is to force them to capture the planet, even if they have weapons (at least, I think it worked this way). Otherwise, the troop transport will just fire at the planet until it either runs out of ammo, or the planet has been fully glassed.

It will not be of much help to you, but... Capturing planets work fine when there is no treaty, and so the problem is likely of having both weapons (a Warship role) and troops on board the ship. You should be able to force the ship to act as a warship, or as a troop transport, but both during the same battle doesn't seem possible (unless I am missing something here).

Re: Stupid troop transports that don\'t drop troops...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I never mix mine BUT, if a person wanted to, why wouldn't a strategy with a primary movement of "Drop Troops" and a secondary movement of "Optimal Range" work on a troop ship with weapons? Seems like the game would move to try to drop troops (and if it couldn't due to not being close enough or platforms on the surface, it would revert to its secondary movement orders...Optimal range).

Re: Stupid troop transports that don\'t drop troops...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You don't have to officially declare war. If your other ships are attacking...then that means you have no treaty. As to why the troop ships aren't doing their job...I can't guess anything other than what I have already said.

Re: Stupid troop transports that don\'t drop troops...
 

The strategy you describe is the one for "Capture Planets" by default, which doesn't seem to work according to Trooper (and I couldn't get it to work either ; but you know you shouldn't ask me to get a working strategy).

I have been tinkering with other strategies (Optimal Range/Drop Troops and Drop Troops/Drop Troops), and failed to have a ship able to fulfill both tasks without changing the strategy.

Re: Stupid troop transports that don\'t drop troops...
 

Does it work with drop troops / point blank maybe? I guess the optimum range strategy is chosen for this ship if it is not directly adjacent to the planet, and makes sure the ship stays out of range, forcing it to choose optimum again next move - ad infinitum. If dropping troops doesn't even work with drop/drop strategy, then there is something stupid hardcoded (I never tried to mix troop transports with weapons other than PDs, and this worked), and only Aaron could answer it - and, hopefully, do it better in SEV.

If there are weapon platforms on a planet, troop transports will not drop as long as there are warships present, letting these attack the WPs first (and maybe glass the planet). This utterly stupid behaviour is hard-coded, it is just not possible to land troops screened by warships and capture the planet unglassed despite a few functioning WPs. Only if the transport is not stacked with warships, it will try to drop the troops running the gauntlet against the WPs.

Re: Stupid troop transports that don\'t drop troops...
 

It seems like you have every thing set up fine with Fleet and Ship Strategies, unless you altered the se4 defaults Strats (or accedenly enabled do not target planet- other wise {GLASS OR CAPTURE it would} - but you did not indicate this).

Trooper , do you have an agreement with this Race, or is there still Weapons Platforms Unit or a Planet Shield Generator Facility, Massive Planetary Shield Generator or a Facsimile of such if you are playing a MOD. on that target Planet?

Actually, you have attack weapons on the Assault Ship.
SJ-May be correct about the role of a warship http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
However, it should in that role clear the Planet of at least all units - did it?

Also important to know - are all Ships in that Fleet with the Same design - Weapons and Cargo w/Troops?
If not, do the other ships in that Combat have weapons or are they weaponless?

[ July 09, 2004, 02:32: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Stupid troop transports that don\'t drop troops...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I never mix mine either.
Also switching strategies generally does not work well. Maybe it can't switch back from secondary.

Are these ships refits of warships? Refits keep prior ships strategy. I have refit ships with boarding parties and had them refuse to board because of it.

[ July 08, 2004, 21:47: Message edited by: Wardad ]

Re: Stupid troop transports that don\'t drop troops...
 

What about "stop firing when all weapons gone" option? Can this be an obstacle in your way to capturing planet? Theoretically, at least?

Re: Stupid troop transports that don\'t drop troops...
 

Are you sure all the weapon platforms are gone. Check your capture planet fleet strategy to make sure your other warships will/did attack the planet.

Troop Transport type ships will always run for the corner if they have troops on board and other ships and WPs are there. After the WPs (or ships) are killed it will then come in and land troops. Be careful with the weapons. It will come in firing and could kill a defenseless planet off before you get there with troops.

I have had CLs with Cargo and weapons capture planets so a transport is not needed. I have stopped putting weapons on them because of accidental planet deaths. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Only in SEIV can someone talk calmly about an accedental planet death. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

OT: Why is the shield destroyer on the far right in the design. I have not tested it, but thought this caused it to fire Last (after all the other weapons to the left fire) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: Stupid troop transports that don\'t drop troops...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yep, weapons fire in order from left to right. You can even disable the Condensed View and have alternating weapons of the same type. Sometimes useful to alternate APB with Shield Depleter against Crystalline races, for example. Or stick that Ionic Disperser after two of the APBs to increase the chance that the shields are down _before_ the ID fires...

Re: Stupid troop transports that don\'t drop troops...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As to really "forcing" a particular type of activity by modifying a strategy, I should tell you of my dismal results in a vain effort to get my ships to attack the nearest ships without regard to anything else (I coded nearest, nearest, nearest, well, you get the point). I just KNEW they would attack anything near them but they wandered around aimlessly! Go figure.

As to warships being in the area...I'm pretty sure Geo captured a planet of mine in a game when I had weapon sats still active. If I am remembering correctly, makes me wonder why there would be a difference between having sats around and ships around.

Re: Stupid troop transports that don\'t drop troops...
 

With some more testing... You *can* make your ship fire its weapons against the planet and still capture the said planet, but it will behave like a Troop Transport (meaning it will not do any capture before all weapon platforms are gone, unless there are no "proper" warships in the battle). So your ship will rush to the planet, fire its weapons as they become available, but its main purpose is to capture the planet. If the capture fails, it will either try to glass the planet (if acting as a warship) or flee (if a troop transport)

It might be useful for you Trooper, if you intend to use such ships as "stand-alone" troop transports. If so, Drop Troops/Optimal Range works fine, but the ship will attempt to glass the planet if the capture fails. Besides, the ship will remain at range 1, meaning it will take a lot of punishment from the remaining platforms. The secondary strategy doesn't matter one bit to the ship by the looks of it, as "Optimal" doesn't mean "next to the target" Last time I checked.

Otherwise, Drop Troops/Drop Troops should force your ship to behave as a Troop ship (allowing it to flee if it cannot capture the planet, while stile firing its weapons as targets become available).

Aiken, the option "Stop firing when all weapons are gone" is said to be broken under SEIV. I have never toyed around it much, so don't quote me on that. At least, it seems like your warships *will* destroy crippled ships with no weapons left once there are no other targets, and they will only left powerless ships alone if there are other targets available.

Re: Stupid troop transports that don\'t drop troops...
 

Troops are over rated... Just glass the planet and recolonize it. Or better yet, bombard it with neutron weapons then drop troops.

Re: Stupid troop transports that don\'t drop troops...
 

I think there must have been a problem while executing the turn. I saw that I had the same problem during that turn with a classical non-armed small transport hull sized troop transport.

Another bug I've noticed during that turn (I checked the saved Version just before submitting the turn ) : I've declared war to the enemy empire, and after turn execution, I have a "treaty none" state with it.
Strange, strange...

Re: Stupid troop transports that don\'t drop troops...
 

Trooper
A few strange things happened to me in that game. Maybe the size of the game is a problem.

I broke a treaty with the double crossing Electrum. His fleet attacked my partner's planet the next turn while my fleet was in orbit. He had enough fuel to destroy the planet and handfull of my partners ships. My ships slaughtered his fleet. His fleet never fired at mine.

I wish he had answered my questions about: fuel, firing strategy, etc...
A good answer with some third party verification, and I would have scrapped my fleet.

Re: Stupid troop transports that don\'t drop troops...
 

Trooper, I can't see why your ship won't capture the planet.

I capture planets all the time with no difficulty. Well, two difficulties: The transport could be locked in the corner by other non-combatant ships (not the case in your graphic) or the transport is blocked from the planet by the warships.

Other than those it always works for me. The location of your troop transport, in the corner, tells me your strategy is probably right.

One possible that I have never run into: Is your transport cloaked? This may prevent planet capture.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, of no importance at all.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">To the best of my knowledge this is not true. I've made all kinds of refits and the new design always acts as expected. The refit ship takes on the new strategy.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, only if you have a "green" treaty will you not be able to attack... and then not attack at all!

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is no problem. Virtually all my troop transports have a standard weapon and a PDC. They have never caused a problem with planet capture... but with troops aboard, they will not go on the offensive against enemy ships even if there is no planet in the sector.
My strategy is Primary: Drop troops (if carrying), Secondary: Maximum Range.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have captured planets with intact WP's. In all cases, though, they contained only PD weapons.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Quite right! The troop transport is only concerned with the planet. Sats, fighters,(in space or on the planet) even enemy warships will not prevent it from attempting to capture the planet.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Glassing is obscene! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Same thing happened to me. My enemy fired mercilessly at me and my ships just sat there and took it. *Sigh*

Re: Stupid troop transports that don\'t drop troops...
 

Great stuff Grandpa Kim - Thanks, you answered many of my questions.

Your site (in your sig) is fantastic http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif did you do the graphics?

Re: Stupid troop transports that don\'t drop troops...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not just green, yellow too.

[ July 12, 2004, 18:36: Message edited by: capnq ]

Re: Stupid troop transports that don\'t drop troops...
 

You wouldn't happen to have the vessel cloaked would you?

Re: Stupid troop transports that don\'t drop troops...
 

Last turn has confirmed what I was thinking :
this pb has been caused by some kind of bug linked to turn execution. With the same ships and same troops, all have worked well this turn...

Too bad for planets glassed Last month...
(Excuses to the families, etc, etc... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

Re: Stupid troop transports that don\'t drop troops...
 

Lol cant speak about PBW but against the AI i always go tactical battle if i want to capture a planet.

Used in conjunction with the emotionless racial ability you can capture without the threat of mutiny - that said if you capture a rioting planet you need to a) build a planet and then urban pacification or have another planet which is not rioting.

Another bug in SE4 i would like to see fixed for SE5 ie if you capture a rioting planet it stops if you have the emotionless ability.

Re: Stupid troop transports that don\'t drop troops...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Or the transport is blocked by a moon and the artificial stupidity doesn't find a way around it to the planet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif Pathing is definitely one of the weak spots in Aaron's programming.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Definitely not. If combat occurs, all ships regardless of cloaking status will participate. So in a big cloaked attack fleet, uncloaking a single ship is enough.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There are definitely some severe bugs in the combat engine. I think most of us have discovered that the only, at least partially reliable, difference in strategies is having "don't get hurt" or not. Fancy strategies - forget them. For instance, it is very difficult to convince a ship close in and fire on the nearest ship, even if your priorities are point blank / point blank and nearest/nearest/nearest/nearest. Likewise, maximum range seems often to be interpreted by some captains with a definite unability to read the numbers on the range finder. I even had cases where the lone unloaded transport with "don't get hurt" headed for the map edge for one combat turn, and then turned around and proceeded straight to the planet into the WP's defense fire. And of course, all time favorite is the famous "sitting duck" strategy being followed instead of your choice.
Ok, strategies work most of the time, but I wouldn't bet my main fleet on the shaky luck of it working just in a critical battle - if your fleet can't win with standard optimum range strategy, better wait for reinforces.