Would You Consider This A Backstab?
 

Situation:

I have a defensive position at a planet. It's an obvious defensive position because there are always over 100 ships there, platforms everywhere, bases in the air, etc. Additionally, it is a converging point of several warpholes that I made.

A person whom I have a treaty with (nearly the entire game) moved a fleet of 100 ships to this point Last turn. I'm thinking, "Fine, thanks for the help." Then this turn runs, that fleet of 100 ships stays, and a ship in this fleet of his has "erased" one of my warpholes "under" my planets there. He didn't ask about erasing the warphole. The treaty between us is still in force.

If you were in my position, how would you feel? I'm thinking, "I built my network of warplines for a purpose and you have no right to come in unnanounced and delete one!"

Put yourself in the other person's shoes. Would you ever, with good intentions, move a fleet to a big defensive point of your ally and erase one of the warpholes there without discussing it with your ally?

Re: Would You Consider This A Backstab?
 

It was not cool for your ally to do that, but unless his action gave an advantage to your enemy, or he attacked you, I wouldn't say he backstabbed you. Maybe he didn't think about what you would think of his action?

Re: Would You Consider This A Backstab?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Then, please offer me a reason that he COULD have done it but meant it in a friendly way. I can't think of one and it's why I posted here asking.

Re: Would You Consider This A Backstab?
 

WElll...uh., if it was me, and this refers to what I think it does, it was cause he thought you wanted that WP removed and he told his ships to travel to waypoint X...which happened to take them through that system...let's talk offline IF this is the game I'm thinking of. And, uh, sorry!

EDIT: see, THIS is what happens when I am in too many games. I forget things like which WPs are dewsired by my allies and which are not, and I end up doing my turn at 2 in the morning and spending 5 minutes on it...argh...I'm a reliable and trustworthy - but clearly FLAKELY ally...


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Then, please offer me a reason that he COULD have done it but meant it in a friendly way. I can't think of one and it's why I posted here asking. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

[ July 16, 2004, 14:09: Message edited by: alarikf ]

Re: Would You Consider This A Backstab?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Then, please offer me a reason that he COULD have done it but meant it in a friendly way. I can't think of one and it's why I posted here asking. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And there you have it!

Re: Would You Consider This A Backstab?
 

I would take him down HARD for that. Take him down there are others for allies.

Re: Would You Consider This A Backstab?
 

Well, sachmo, not sure what you mean but I'm talking to alarikf offline now. alarikf's message is a bit confusing, especially this part, "...cause he thought you wanted that WP removed and he told his ships to travel to waypoint X...which happened to take them through that system...". One can't move to a warp point and then close it. You have to be sitting on it at the beginning of the turn. As to traveling, the fleet I suspect of doing it didn't travel for 2 turns.

But, recognizing I could have the wrong idea who did it, I'm discussing it with alarikf now. But the fleet in question has a single ship there where the hole disappeared named "Vaccuum". Might just be a fluke. I'll find out before I take any stupid action.

Re: Would You Consider This A Backstab?
 

He is about to break the treaty with you so be careful.

Re: Would You Consider This A Backstab?
 

"Vacuum"? Ok, it ain't me.

That's encouraging.

My ship naming scheme is so simple achild could understand it. (standard USN scheme, really)

What I meant by the warp point/fleet movement thing was written too fast to be clear: I closed a WP that I thought we had discussed as one you wanted closing.

In a *separate* issue, I have also been moving some fleets around, so I could envision a situation where they took the "shortest route" to their destinations - and that might have taken them over your planets.

It looks like that is not what happened. Now, I may still have screwed up by closing the WP, but it's clear that it wasn't a backstab. "Vacuum" - bah, who names their ships Vacuum?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: Would You Consider This A Backstab?
 

Guys what game is this?

Re: Would You Consider This A Backstab?
 

Bah! You wish!

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: Would You Consider This A Backstab?
 

I must say your actions in the Last few turns have got me a little concerned as well Alarik. Re-positioning fleets over warp points between our systems, opening warp points to my systems and closing warp points to my ally Slykys space. These actions seem to have a pattern, and the pattern is not a good one. Perhaps it's just a coincindence. Afterall you only a few turns ago made a huge show of telling everybody you still wanted to be friends after taking over the Deccan. You wouldn't do that if you were planning an attack now would you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Would You Consider This A Backstab?
 

double bah!

My take on the situation is this: you guys are fighting, I'm just trying to defend my self and avoid collateral damage, while bringing my three (distant) pieces of empire in touch with each other. SO, yep, I've been closing WPs and opening others to "rationalize" the deccan space, but at the moment it's defensive. Having said this, I am pretty nervous about becoming a highway for maruading fleets to go through to pound their enemies, and I presume that my allies don't want me sitting on the fence while they are in a war. So, I don't preclude future combatoperations to support my allies.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: Would You Consider This A Backstab?
 

To Atrocities: As far as I can tell, it is Anklebiters, unless they are purposefully using deception to hide the true name of the game in question.

Re: Would You Consider This A Backstab?
 

Pittari da!

Ankle biters it 'tis

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: Would You Consider This A Backstab?
 

The Slynky and I are allies, and we are no threat to the Deccan Empire. We seek only to stop the aggressive expansion of the Tesco to our west. The only empire that has used your empire as a highway recently is in fact the Tesco in skirting our frontline defenses and attacking our rear using the cross galactic warp point in your space. That is the warp point Slynky requested you close. Instead you closed an artery of import to the Slynky, opened another to our space, and have moved fleets to our border in two places. Our border which to this point has been free of conflict and is in no danger. As I said, the picture this paints is a troubling one.

Re: Would You Consider This A Backstab?
 

Ya know, the greatest way to start a war you didn't "want" is to create something of a diplomatic blunder...

I didn't mean to close that warp point that is integral to you and your ally combined defense against an agressor freely passing through my territoy.

I didn't mean to leave 100 warships over your strategic choke-point defending your space.

It's all a mistake... oops, I did it again. Sorry. "Oh, that wasn't me that canceled the treaty- I missed my turn, it was the AI. Sorry for glassing those planets.

Here is the rather telling part, no?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Very honorable. I suggest the interested parties find out who exactly he is reffering to as being an "ally". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Sorry to chime in, but it's interesting watch the fireworks... good luck all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Would You Consider This A Backstab?
 

Absolutely true - diplomatic history is replete with cases where nations relied upon such tactics.

However, even more telling is that "time will tell"

And, of course, the reality of realpolitik inherently demands that no single power would likely relenquish their right to self-defense or their soveriegn right to wage war. Hobbesian world, and all that. So, I would say no power would ever likely "preclude future combatoperations to support [their] allies." WHo would ally with such a power? Not me, certainly. Trust is worth more than a thousand dreadnoughts.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Anyways, this is all sort of fun to air one's ditziness. For the record, it was NOT me that was being referred to in the first post...

Re: Would You Consider This A Backstab?
 

When I get home tonight and get to take a longer look, I'll be able to be positive who did it. If it's alarikf, we've already talked. If someone else, then it's a new story.

Re: Would You Consider This A Backstab?
 

Could it have possibly been an enemy closing it from the other side? (one of those aforementioned diplomatic blunder - accusing your ally of what your enemy did...)

The enemy may be sitting back gleefully reading this topic watching the alliance fall apart.

Re: Would You Consider This A Backstab?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I checked the obvious places quickly. There were no large fleets around...but I didn't look for a lone ship (or 2). Of course, it would be unusual for someone to move a stellar manipulation ship into enemy territory without adequate escort http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif . So, without having a chance to look closer (I looked over the turn quickly Last night at bed time), the prevailing assumption is that it was an ally.

Re: Would You Consider This A Backstab?
 

Well, one, can you see cloaked ships?

and two, are you sure the warp point wasn't closed on the opposite end (the receiving system)? Or was it closed in your space?

Re: Would You Consider This A Backstab?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Cloaked ships can't activate stellar manip, so, if it moved into place cloaked (Last turn) and then uncloaked and did the closure, I will be able to check to see a ship leaving on turn rerun. I'll just have to do it for the other end of the hole to see. Right now, I'm not even sure which warphole it was (there were 5 there, I think). I have optic sats in every system. AND, in this game, the stellar device must be on a frigate. That doesn't leave much room for a 30Kt Stealth component http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Re: Would You Consider This A Backstab?
 

I need to post an update to this thread since I've had time to sort out the details of what happened:

Most of all, in case I damaged anyone's reputation, I want to set that straight.

The 2 possibilities of who closed the hole has been determined to be alarikf (who acted in a way that he thought was beneficial to me). We have discussed the matter and there is no rift in our alliance.

The other possibility that I alluded to was AtomSmasher (atari eric). In case anyone else wondered if he had been the person who closed the hole because I mentioned his fleet and a ship named, "Vaccuum", I want to make sure everyone knows this was NOT the case. His fleet is helping guard an important point for me (for the time being...he may decide to move it).

So, my apology to both of them for my suspicions!

Re: Would You Consider This A Backstab?
 

It wasn't me - I don't even have ships capable of creating/removing warp points (i have the tech, just no desire). And the ships can stay if you want them to, but generally I'm going for a more pro-active approach this game. I tend to be handed my aft section if I turtle...

Re: Would You Consider This A Backstab?
 

actualy you can close a warp point that you are not already sitting on, if your sitting on annother *single* warp point - give the move order, then the close order. if the ship is sitting on more than 1 wp then it will ask you for the name and it wont work.

Re: Would You Consider This A Backstab?
 

You now what would be ironic, if it was a Random event that has started all this mistrust. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif


And to keep the mistrust going:-

Watch your back Skynky. Geo has previously stated that he is not opposed to attacking an ally. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ July 20, 2004, 07:01: Message edited by: Baron Grazic ]