PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Some folks have mentioned wanting to start a new (smaller quadrant than PBW PvK Proportions Game #1) game using Proportions Mod on PBW.

A few questions come to mind, so for those who are interested in participating, let me know here if you want to play, and let me know if you have an opinion about these:

1) Would you rather I start it right away using the current Version of the mod, or wait a week, by which time I may have had time to make a new Version of the mod?

2) Do you want to start from a single homeworld, or shall I let the AI or myself run the game for a number of turns to establish some colonies and infrastructure etc., to give things a head start?

3) What rate and time limits for turns do you prefer, or can you not keep up or put up with?

4) What are your suggestions for game setting, size, etc?

My suggestions for settings, are:

Starting resources: 20000
Starting planets: 1
Home planet value: Good
Score display: Own
Technology level: Low
Racial points: 3000
Quadrant type: Custom
Quadrant size: About 2.5 colonizable systems per player.
Event frequency: Medium
Event severity: High
Technology cost: Medium
Victory conditions: No set victory conditions. Decide what your empire wants to accomplish, and try to accomplish that.
Maximum units in space: 20000 (max)
Maximum ships in space: 20000 (max)
Computer players: None
Computer difficulty: High
Computer player bonus: Medium
Neutral empires: No
Other game settings:

All warp points connected

All player planets the same size.

All tech areas allowed.

"Evenly" distributed homeworlds.

No cheat codes.

Gifts and tributes ok.

No technology gifts (send a gift ship if you need to).

Surrender not allowed (subjugation ok).

Intel projects ok.

Ruins will exist. Note that most of them will be red herrings.

No strict limits on colonization.

No saving map during game.

Simultaneous movement.

The game will upgrade to use official MM patches as they appear, and minor Proportions patches as they appear.

Proportions patches that alter balance or introduce new elements to any great degree will be up to a vote by players whether we switch to them or not.

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

nice http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Starting game: I would like to start from the beginning without the AI messing anything up http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif , i think it would be okay to wait a few more days so you can get a new patch out.

2,5 systems per player sounds VERY good !

Turntime would be 48 hours imho, but lets wait for other players.

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Can't gaurentee that I'll play, but I would only say that if you "let the AI run the game for a number of turns" then it will in part become a competition between which AI empire is better than others. This is not appealing, at least to me, for a variety of reasons. Perhaps, instead, start from turn zero but give people more than one homeworld?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

coneone alarikf, you HAVE to play http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

You are clearly a bad influence.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Yep, that would be a weakness of using the AI to start things. Another alternative would be for me to run a few turns for everyone and do the same thing for everyone - colonize the home system a bit and build a couple of shipyard bases and ferry boats.

Or, not.

I'd rather not use multiple homeworlds because it more or less divides the research cost of everything by the number of homeworlds. What I can do though is change the homeworld value to a multiple, which means everyone gets that many more base resources, without getting more research and intel points. Default Proportions is a bit stingy with resources so you can only maintain a fairly small fleet compared to the unmodded game. Turning up the homeworld and/or other planet values is a pretty easy way to tweak that.

So in response, I'd counter-suggest, for instance, doubling both the usual homeworld and new world resource values.

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

so, who else wants to join the fun ?! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Yet another possibility would be to build "quasi" homeworlds in the same system as the one where your homeworld is. It would be a planet with 100% resource values, a lot of population and decent resource facilities (it would imply increasing the construction and production figures during this initial setup phase). But I gather your solution of increasing resource production and be done with it is the easiet to use.

48 hours seem fine for me as well; it may be increased later on if needed after all.

How important would be the changes brought by the new Version? Would it be a minor patch, or the next step for Proportions (or even the 3.0 Version)? If this new Version is indeed an important update, I would rather wait for it before beginning the game.

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Somewhere in-between, probably. Depends on how much time I get to do it, and how smoothly it goes.

Things I will include:
* Reduced cost of armored plating.
* Added vehicles to use all of the neo-standard images.
* Some adjusted starting costs.
* Extension of some techs that tend to get fully researched, to higher levels, probably with diminishing or diverse returns.

Things I might include:
* Economic adjustments.
* New weapon types.
* Adjustments to existing weapons.
* Revision of fighters and PD.
* Space-born solar rad collectors.
* Space-born laboratories.
* Space-born organic farms.
* Space-born intel labs.
* Revision of mine warfare.
* Extension of cloaking technologies.
* Further adjustment of weapon mount values.
* Use of new damage types.

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

so, why not wait ?

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

No reason. We're waiting. I'll set up the game after I do the new mod Version, and my deadline for the new mod Version is this coming Monday.

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

All of these sound like great ideas. Are you willing to go into more detail on your concepts for deep-space labs, organics farms, intel stations, etc...? the reason I ask is I wonder about a few things.

If I can build rad gathering stations in deep space, how many resources will they cost? Will they operate when cloaked (that woudl be weird, I think - how can I get the resources to my empire if they're cloaked, etc..) and stuff like that. It's just that this sounds like the first real implementation of the intrinsic resource/point generation capabilities that were added in Version 1.91, and as such I'm trying to get a handle on the full implications of them, especially in a generally resource-constrained enviroment that we find in Proportions...

thanks,

Alarik

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Somewhere in-between, probably. Depends on how much time I get to do it, and how smoothly it goes.

Things I will include:
* Reduced cost of armored plating.
* Added vehicles to use all of the neo-standard images.
* Some adjusted starting costs.
* Extension of some techs that tend to get fully researched, to higher levels, probably with diminishing or diverse returns.

Things I might include:
* Economic adjustments.
* New weapon types.
* Adjustments to existing weapons.
* Revision of fighters and PD.
* Space-born solar rad collectors.
* Space-born laboratories.
* Space-born organic farms.
* Space-born intel labs.
* Revision of mine warfare.
* Extension of cloaking technologies.
* Further adjustment of weapon mount values.
* Use of new damage types.

PvK </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

I haven't figured out exactly what the values will be yet for the space facilities, which is why I haven't promised to include them.

The values will scale quite a bit depending on how much research you put into them. At first, they may mainly provide a way to invest mainly minerals (from construction and maintenance) in order to generate rads (solar generation) or organics (space greenhouses) or research and intel (space labs). The efficiency of this won't be very great until you invest enough research in it. The other trade-off is there will be no way to protect these with planetary shielding and the best arcs of weapon platforms, so such infrastructure will be harder to protect from raiders. On the other hand, it opens possibilities for doing things like hiding infrastructure in unexpected places, and even becoming less dependent on planets, but with significant research investment.

I think cloaking is possible, but not easy. Proportions requires scale mounts for cloaking components, so the cost scales with size, and these things are big and their main limiter is efficiency, even without expensive defenses added.

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

keep in mind ressource generating ships / non-planet-based methods will not show up the right values in the empire screen !

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Posting to update status here. I'm a bit behind schedule. I've made a bunch of new stuff, hopefully all likable. I have a bit more to do before it is ready to run, so I need to keep myself from doing more and more. I have too long a list of things I'd like to do, but it takes much longer than I'd like to actually get the right numbers figured out and entered.

To throw out a bone, here is what I've done so far:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Version 3.0:

--------------
New Additions:
--------------
* Added a 250 kT warship hull, called Frigate. Old Frigate renamed Corvette.
* Added a 350 kT Heavy Destroyer.
* Added a 600 kT Heavy Cruiser.
* Added a 1300 kT Heavy Dreadnought.
* Added an Express Transport (uses Tiny Transport graphic).
* Added a Huge Troop.
* Added a Large Space Station (1000 kT).
* Added a 2500 kT Large Battle Station (uses War Station graphic).
* Added a Large Starbase (3000 kT).
* Added a Massive Starbase (5000 kT).
-----------------
Gameplay Changes:
-----------------
* Reduced costs of armored plating.
* Added boarding defense strength to bridge components.
* Fleshed out Crew Quarters components with levels and abilities.
* Reduced combat penalties of computer control components.
* Extended Master Computers to tech level 10.
* Branched and extended Organic Armor technology into two types.
* Increased costs of higher-tech Gestation Vats, Medical Labs,
Climate Control Facilities, Events Predictors, Temporal Vacation
Services, Training Facilities, Crystalline Restructuring Plants,
Energy Transmission Lenses, Resource Storage, Cargo Facilities,
Mineral Scanners, Eco - Farms, Radioactives Colliders, Robotoid
Factories, Computer Complexes, Citizen Databanks, Shrines, Resource
Converters, and Ultra - Recyclers.
* Increased unhappiness from Citizen Databanks.
* Reduced effect and massively increased costs of Replicant Centers.
* Added an unhappiness effect to Replicant Centers.
* Added five more levels of Planetary Gravitational Shield Facilities
and four more levels of System Gravitational Shield Facilities and a
new tech area for them, making them available much earlier but at a
steep price.
* Massively increased costs of Value Improvement Plants and Atmospheric
Modification Plants.
* Slowed the effect of Atmospheric Modification Plants.
* Per Dogscoff's suggestion, made Resource Converters require Physics
and Biology as well as Chemistry. Also made it a deeper tree that
starts out less efficiently.
* Also per Dogscoff's suggestion, added Construction as a requirement
for Ultra - Recyclers.
--------------------------
Construction Yard Changes:
--------------------------
* Reduced organic construction rate of ship/base spaceyards by 9/10.
* Reduced radioactives construction rate of ship/base spaceyards by half.
* Added base spaceyards (Orbital Space Yard Facilities) with higher
organic construction rates, but these have high organics costs.
* Increased organics costs of colony modules from 2000 to 6000. This
doesn't change their construction rate much except on the new ship-based
spaceyards. This makes it impractical to use space-yard ships to
build colony ships at or near their destinations, instead of having
to send colony ships long distances under their own power.
* Extended Ship Yard facilities and components to 15 levels each.
-----------------
Economic Changes:
-----------------
* Raised infantry and crewed unit organics costs from 0-10 to ~25-35.
* Added 1 rad cost per kT tonnage to mechanical ground units.
* Added org costs to crew quarters.
* Added rad costs to bridge components.
* Added rad and increased other costs to Weapon Platform Command Centers.
* Increased capacity of Resource Storage facilities.
---------
Cosmetic:
---------
* Added some new system names.
* Removed all the now-unneeded Inaccessible Technology leftovers.</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Stuff I really wanted to do, but haven't gotten to yet, include:

* Adjusting the starting empire costs.
* Reworking fighters at least a bit.
* Reworking mines at least a bit.

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What sort of unhappiness effect? Build a UPC with ability 1, and it completely cancels out a negative happiness ability in the system... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif EDIT: Ok scratch that... upon testing, it seems as the abilities are working correctly in 1.91. Been a while since I played around with them... They (two facilities with planet happiness ability) even seem to be stacking now! Just make sure to note that a negative value for Planet - Change Population Happiness decreases anger levels and a postive value increases anger levels, which is exactly opposite of the system happiness ability.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ah...

[ August 04, 2004, 00:33: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

That all sounds sensible to me. Did you come to a decision on the space-borne resource generation ideas?

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Thanks for the tip about the backwards happiness values, Fyron!

AlarikF, no, I have a sketch for the extraplanetary generators, but I haven't gotten to them yet. I figure I should do what I need to for a good stable Version to start the proposed game with, or else I'll be adding stuff for a long time without starting the game.

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Further info. A negative value for the ability Change Population Happiness - System never works. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Only the planet one can cause anger to rise.

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

yeah, I agree that for a change that could have far-reaching consequences, stability & testing are important...yet they remain an intriguing idea, and one that would likely not be viable until one reaches moderate levels of tech. Might I humbly suggest then that you have whatever placeholders you need to allow the players in the game to upgrade to a new Proportions mod that has them implemented once they are stable and tested sufficiently? Ie: players probably won't have them available for a while *anyways* so make the game "upgradeable" so the mod with the extraplanetary generators and the game can dovetail? Did that make sense? (and, I hope this doesn't sound like "preaching" - heck, I wouldn't know my ar** end around modding, and nobody likes a smarta**, so please do take this as a suggestion from an ardent fan of the mod...)

Meeps!

Alarik

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Thanks again Fyron, and yeah, sigh, ah well, at least one of the two values works backwards. I think maybe I tested that way back when I put the planet unhappiness on the system fac in the older Version, and then like so many details, I forgot it. Of course, lots of little things changed with each Version of the game, so it's really nice to have a current report about it.

AlarikF, yes, it will be possible to add some things as the game goes on, as long as the players agree to add them.

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

I might be interested in joining...

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Good. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

I have created the game on PBW, titled "PvK's Proportions Game #2", so people can sign up.

Hopefully I can even finish the new mod Version tonight.

Maybe people should post the minimum number of players they feel we should have before we start the game, too.

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Count me in!

However, I wouldn't mind seeing a slightly larger map than what's described - I like a bit of room to explore and offer strategic depth http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Still, I'll go with whatever you decide.
Can't wait to try out the new mod changes!

-Hippo

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Cool. I am thinking basically everyone will be 4 warp jumps from almost everyone else. This means everyone will have two adjacent colonizable systems, and one colonizable system that is equa-distant from other players, two warp jumps away. However there may be some non-colonizable systems, systems with just one planet, etc., to give weird maneuver and exploration options, and maybe some very distant systems people could go for too, with some planets, but mainly everyone will have pretty good access to most or all other players and the easily available planets, so there will be plenty of opportunity for conflict.

This is a counterpoint to PvK Proportions Game #1, where the map is large and several nations have no access at all to others without travelling very long distances through each others' space, and everyone had several systems they could colonize. I actually really like the map we got in many ways, with its seas of no connections, the weird Krsqk cluster hidden in the corner with only one quadrant-spanning connection to the far corner, and so on, but it definitely "slowed" interaction between players, which I think has a lot to do with why we had so many drop-outs, and why it's been as peaceful as it has.

Anyway, comments and requests are welcome.

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Here are my notes on the empire cost changes in 3.0:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">
--------------------
Empire Cost Changes:
--------------------
* Lowered value of &quot;Advanced Power Conservation&quot; to 900 points.
* Lowered value of &quot;Supply Guzzlers&quot; to -700 points.
* Lowered value of &quot;Natural Merchants&quot; to 1500 points.
* Renamed &quot;Propulsion Experts&quot; to &quot;Transcendental Navigation&quot; with a new
description, since it has a bizarre disproportionate effect.
* Added a new &quot;Propulsion Experts&quot; trait, which is a new racial tech
area that provides better propulsion components.
* Renamed &quot;Mechanoids&quot; to &quot;Plague Immune&quot; and dropped cost to 400 points.
* Physical Strength values lowered.
* Intelligence costs tweaked. &quot;Dumb&quot; races get more points back.
* Cunning adjusted per PvK Balance Mod.
* Happiness and Environmental Resistance values slashed, but Happiness
ranges increased, in light of research into lack of effect of racial
Happiness.
* Reproduction maximum increased. Now limited only by cost.
* Aggressiveness and Defensiveness adjusted per PvK Balance Mod.
* Political Savvy adjusted per PvK Balance Mod.
* Resource extraction aptitudes left as in Proportions 2.5.3.1.
* Construction Aptitude adjusted per PvK Balance Mod, except positive
threshold. Also extended allowed minimum range to 25.
* Repair Aptitude adjusted per PvK Balance Mod, with increased min and
max values.
* Maintenance Aptitude left as is, because it uses SJ's base-100 system.
</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Nice PvK !

About the fighters: Just increase the hull cost by a few minerals or whatever, that will make it harder to mass them !

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

I'm aware of the fighter issue, and have something in the works, but it's not done yet. I figure it would be best to get it in before starting, so it may be Monday before it's ready, as I have other tasks I need to do today and this weekend.

I more or less agree with your comments on the fighters in 2.5. They are too good too early, meaning fleets should bring interceptors with them, etc. It worked sort of on a World War II or modern naval air analogy (or Star Wars, or Battlestar Galactica, or...), but that does mean mostly requiring fighters to deal with other fighters.

My current approach is to slash the combat modifiers they start with, and move the availability of higher-powered weapons to higher tech levels. So the first fighters you can get are more like armed shuttlecraft, - auxiliary weapons that can help but that can also be dealt with by ships. The higher tech levels will still be quite strong, but by those tech levels, ships have better combat mods and defenses available too, and the higher-tech fighter components will also cost more. Also, since there will be a greater change in performance with technology, amassing fighters during periods of peace should be less effective, since the older fighters should be outmatched by newer models. That's the theory - I think I can come close to pulling it off, but it will take some effort.

I'm already doing the fighter/bomber split - I'm not sure what the torpedo bomber distinction would be, unless you mean planet-only or planet/ship weapons opposed to ship-only weapons. That's already in there.

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

More testing on planet happiness ability:

I built a faciltiy with -20 planet happiness. The planet quickly dropped to angry mood, never below. Then I built one with +10, nothing changed for 10 turns of waiting. I built a second +10, nothing changed very fast. Then I built a third +10, and the mood increased quickly.

This confirms that facilities with the planet happiness ability stack with each other. You can build two of the same facility for double the effect. A negative facility and a positive facility add together, not one replaces the other. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Note that for the system happiness ability, only the best ability in the system is used.

[ August 06, 2004, 19:48: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Amazing! I was just thinking about exactly what you just researched, like one minute before I got to your post!

That's very very useful - thanks!

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

MMM.. proportions v3.0 sounds like fun http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

BTW: about fighters, they really are an overkill, the cost virtually nothing to own, and a squad of 50 fighters (easily carried on two destroyers) can destroy entire fleets, even if they have some PD.

I would love to see them soemwhat weekened in the next Version http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Maybe you could specialize fighters, into three different types (interceptor, bomber, torpedo bomber) using the allowed target types of weapons.

May not really make fighters any weaker, but it'll certainly make them less universal.

ATM Fighters equipped with guns can tear apart just about anything

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Minor question: I just thought about uploading my empire file, but then i remembered that the changelog shows a increase/decrease of racial point cost for certain abilities. So i cant really upload my empire file until the patch is ready, yes ?

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

You cannot indeed, unless you are willing to do the maths yourself and check whether your Empire will be valid after the next patch. It is only when PvK will add our Empire files that they will be checked against his Version, and Empires having used too many points will not work.

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

just what i thought.

PvK, hurry http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Ok, I'm hurryin' ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

New Version should be available in the next couple of days. Pardon the delay.

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Ok, the new patch Version should be available today. I seem to have caused a bug or two that needs to be hammered out, but that shouldn't take long.

We have nine players signed up! And I don't even see Dogscoff, Alarikf, or JLS listed!

Shall I try to scare some people away? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I probably should give fair warning, that it may be a long game, and it would be best if we have players who are committed for a long time, because it would be best if we don't end up with a bunch of AI's.

I am thinking I will adjust the map by hand for the type of map described earlier, and then not actually play myself, until perhaps we have an intact empire that someone abandons, and no one replaces. That will help keep the empires under human control, give me a handicap, and balance against the knowledge advantage I'd have from being the map creator.

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Long games are no problem with me. But i really hope each player joins the game with the same responsibilty. Because it majorly suc*s if all 20 turns or somehting a player leaves, it somehow distrupts the entire games feeling !

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

I've been in "P&amp;N on PBW take 2" for what, almost 3 years now? Granted we only average around a turn a week, but I rarely miss any, given that I rarely go out of town or do anything weird like that... pretty much only time I miss a turn is when my computer crashes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

The question is, after all these new games I'm joining, will I have time for SE5??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Speaking of delays, I need one more day for the mod release, as I found some things I must fix before you guys make empires. But it's really close, so it really should be out tomorrow. Meanwhile, here is my latest change list:

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Version 3.0:

--------------
New Additions:
--------------
* Added a 250 kT warship hull, called Frigate. Old Frigate renamed Corvette.
* Added a 350 kT Heavy Destroyer.
* Added a 600 kT Heavy Cruiser.
* Added a 1300 kT Juggernaut.
* Added three sizes of Utility Station (uses Resource Base graphic).

* Added an Express Transport (uses Tiny Transport graphic).
* Added a Bomber (uses Huge Fighter graphic).
* Added a Heavy Bomber (uses Massive Fighter graphic).
* Added a Huge Troop.
* Added a Large Space Station (1000 kT).
* Added a 2500 kT Large Battle Station (uses War Station graphic).
* Added a Large Starbase (3000 kT).
* Added a Massive Starbase (5000 kT).
* Added some random events (mostly minor).
-----------------
Gameplay Changes:
-----------------
* Reduced costs of armored plating.
* Added boarding defense strength to bridge components.
* Fleshed out Crew Quarters components with levels and abilities.
* Reduced combat penalties of computer control components.
* Extended Master Computers to tech level 10.
* Branched and extended Organic Armor technology into two types.
* Increased costs of higher-tech Gestation Vats, Medical Labs,
Climate Control Facilities, Events Predictors, Temporal Vacation
Services, Training Facilities, Crystalline Restructuring Plants,
Energy Transmission Lenses, Resource Storage, Cargo Facilities,
Mineral Scanners, Eco - Farms, Radioactives Colliders, Robotoid
Factories, Computer Complexes, Citizen Databanks, Shrines, Resource
Converters, and Ultra - Recyclers.
* Increased unhappiness from Citizen Databanks.
* Reduced effect and massively increased costs of Replicant Centers.
* Added an unhappiness effect to Replicant Centers.
* Added five more levels of Planetary Gravitational Shield Facilities
and four more levels of System Gravitational Shield Facilities and a
new tech area for them, making them available much earlier but at a
steep price.
* Massively increased costs of Value Improvement Plants and Atmospheric
Modification Plants.
* Slowed the effect of Atmospheric Modification Plants.
* Per Dogscoff's suggestion, made Resource Converters require Physics
and Biology as well as Chemistry. Also made it a deeper tree that
starts out less efficiently.
* Also per Dogscoff's suggestion, added Construction as a requirement
for Ultra - Recyclers.
* Split technologies previously under "Shields" into "Shields",
"Phased Shields", and "Shield Regeneration" (and the new
"Gravitational Shields" tech area mentioned above). The various
branches require research in basic "Shields" to level 3.
* Shields generators and regenerators extended to higher levels.
* Increased research cost of Starliner Modules.
* Increased research cost of Massive Base Ship Construction.
* Added Stealth Armor tech requirement to Stealth Structure.
* Added Reflective Alloys tech requirement to Scattering Structure.
* Added Emissive Armor tech requirement to Emissive Armored Structure.
* Removed Fighter technology from carrier hulls - reworked carrier
tech level requirements.
* Split Mines technology into mine and sweeper trees, and made major
changes to minefield statistics.
----------------
Fighter Changes:
----------------
* Rate of fire of all fighter weapons halved.
* Added Fighter Propulsion tech area, starting with Chemical Thrusters.
* Removed supply storage from most fighter engines.
* Added Fighter Power Plant (supply) components.
* Increased fighter supply use per turn from 5 to 50.
* Increased fighter engine supply use per sector.
* Due to the above two, fighter range in-system is now severely limited.
* Increased fighter weapons' supply use.
* Stretched some fighter weapon tech requirements, adding some levels.
* Changed fighter propulsion to a one-component-per-fighter system, to
allow combat modifiers to be more firmly based on maneuverability.
--------------------------
Construction Yard Changes:
--------------------------
* Reduced organic construction rate of ship/base spaceyards by 9/10.
* Reduced radioactives construction rate of ship/base spaceyards by half.
* Added base spaceyards (Orbital Space Yard Facilities) with higher
organic construction rates, but these have high organics costs.
* Added Organic Space Yard under Organic Manipulation tech tree, with
higher organic build rate than is available under ordinary tech tree.
* Increased organics costs of colony modules from 2000 to 6000. This
doesn't change their construction rate much except on the new ship-based
spaceyards. This makes it impractical to use space-yard ships to
build colony ships at or near their destinations, instead of having
to send colony ships long distances under their own power.
* Extended Space Yard facilities and components to 15 levels each.
--------------------
Empire Cost Changes:
--------------------
* Lowered value of "Advanced Power Conservation" to 900 points.
* Lowered value of "Supply Guzzlers" to -700 points.
* Lowered value of "Natural Merchants" to 1500 points.
* Renamed "Propulsion Experts" to "Transcendental Navigation" with a new
description, since it has a bizarre disproportionate effect.
* Added a new "Propulsion Experts" trait, which is a new racial tech
area that provides better propulsion components.
* Renamed "Mechanoids" to "Plague Immune" and dropped cost to 400 points.
* Physical Strength values lowered.
* Intelligence costs tweaked. "Dumb" races get more points back.
* Cunning adjusted per PvK Balance Mod.
* Happiness and Environmental Resistance values slashed, but Happiness
ranges increased, in light of research into lack of effect of racial
Happiness.
* Reproduction maximum increased. Now limited only by cost.
* Aggressiveness and Defensiveness adjusted per PvK Balance Mod.
* Political Savvy adjusted per PvK Balance Mod.
* Resource extraction aptitudes left as in Proportions 2.5.3.1.
* Construction Aptitude adjusted per PvK Balance Mod, except positive
threshold. Also extended allowed minimum range to 25.
* Repair Aptitude adjusted per PvK Balance Mod, with increased min and
max values.
* Maintenance Aptitude left as is, because it uses SJ's base-100 system.
-----------------
Economic Changes:
-----------------
* Raised infantry and crewed unit organics costs from 0-10 to ~25-35.
* Added 1 rad cost per kT tonnage to mechanical ground units.
* Added org costs to crew quarters.
* Added rad costs to bridge components.
* Added rad and increased other costs to Weapon Platform Command Centers.
* Increased capacity of Resource Storage facilities.
* Added org costs to training facilities.
* Increased Base maintenance reduction from 50% to 73%.
* Changed Cultural Centers to one-per-homeworld facilities
which multiply production of facilities there by many times.
This allows players to develop and customize their homeworlds
to focus and embelish production, etc.
---
UI:
---
* Moved efficient scanners and ECM before most powerful models, so that
the design screen's Upgrade function (and the AI) will choose the more
powerful models over the efficient ones.
---------
Cosmetic:
---------
* Added some new system names.
* Removed all the now-unneeded Inaccessible Technology leftovers.
* Corrected MM typo in Planet Utilization description.
* Rearranged positions of various components to group them together in
the design interface.
* Added some images from on Dogscoff's Neo-Standard page.
</pre><hr />

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Erm... sounds good.

PvK, i don't really know if its a known issue or not, but i feel a bit odd about the planetary defenses in proportions. Since the beginning to be honest.

With the extreme ammount of cargo space you have on your homeworld, and the range bonus on the weapon platform mounts, its easily possible to build defenses, the enemy will never get trough.

This wouldnt be much of a problem in itself, but as the defense platforms cost nothing to maintain and the ships cost a lot, its questionable you'll ever have an army large enough to survive even the first round of planetary defense fire.

Fighters / missiles just hit an invisible wall about 2 squares away from the planet, so they are not an alternative either.

I guess you've tought about that as well, i just would like to know, if its an unwanted side effect, or in fact you intended homeworlds to be this strong. (btw: the 15-20k shield - depending on homeworld size) make the planet strong in itself, without any defenses.

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Good question csebal.

This was partly done for counterpoint. In the unmodded game, an artificially low limit on planet capacity ("Sorry - _planet_ "full"!") results in planetary defenses being incapable of fighting off a fairly large fleet. So it both makes sense and offers a new situation.

In theory yes it is possible to put an enormous amount of units on a planet with a breathable planet - particularly the homeworld.

In practice, there may be a very large number of units on important planets, and it makes sense to take advantage of this to protect them. However, there is not a stalemate situation except potentially with a human defending against the AI (due to its weaknesses).

One simple reason it's not a stalemate is that you don't have to fight the weapon platforms if you have your ships not fire on planets. The planet is then blockaded, and this can effectively remove even a homeworld from effective contribution to an empire.

Also, in practice, it's very expensive and time-consuming to build fleet-stopping defenses. In the time it takes to build them up, they become less and less up-to-date, too. It's usually a better strategy to concentrate on mobile forces and economic development, with just enough defences to prevent your planets from being snatched by cheap raiding forces.

Finally, there are weapons which can overcome even a formidably defended homeworld. Planetary weapons do huge amounts of damage, and there are shield-skipping and shield-depleting weapons which can still overwhelm a powerful planet... but it's generally risky and expensive, which is how I intended.

One vital tip is to scout first - send ships to view the defenses before assaulting. Also, custom anti-planet designs can help - expendable with cheap components (no expensive sensors, top-end engines, or elite crews) but lots of cheap armor and effective anti-planet weapons are good choices.

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

This game on PBW is full with 12 players. I've therefore created a PvK's Proportions Game #3 in case there are more, and/or for players who would rather play in a game with fewer than 12 players.

Lots of players is nice in some ways, but also can lead to longer time between turns, and is more likely for someone to drop out.

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Ok, there is a 3.0 preview posted HERE. With it, you can create empires for this game, and check out the changes. I will probably make another Last-minute change or two and you guys might catch some things, but this is more or less it and I'm confident the empire selection will not change, so you should be able to create empires using this.

Let me know if you have any suggestions or spot any problems.

Thanks,

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Hey PvK,

The new mod looks great! Several of the new changes enhance that "epic" feel which makes Proportions such a great mod. Thanks for all the work you've once again put into it.

The only new change I'm not such a big fan of is the new fighter weapon firing rate. Although fighters in 2.x were powerful early on, by the time players researched armor plating and the later levels of shield tech, fighters have a hard time punching through these layered defenses.

In 3.0, fighter costs seem to have increased (making it less likely to mass produce so many fighters in a short period of time), they have now become much more of a tactical weapon with their lower supply limits, and the reworked shield values makes them less survivable. These changes are great. However, by halving the firing rates, I fear that fighters may become unable to inflict enough damage over time to justify their use. At the very least, by firing energy weapons only once every 2 turns they lose a lot of their value as "anti-fighter" interceptors.

Perhaps it would be possible to half firing rates on torps and such, but leave energy weapons as they were? Or perhaps, early Versions of a weapon could fire slower than later levels of the same weapon. I don't know if this is even possible, but can mounts be modded to effect firing rates? If so, you could create an "interceptor" mount - which would not be usable on the new bomber sizes - which could let the smaller fighters retain their value as interceptors by allowing them to fire every turn with low powered fighter energy weapons.

Aside from that, I think the new changes are great!

Thanks,
-Hippo

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Hi Hippo - thanks for the feedback! Pardon my rambling reply, but it's late and I'm tired.

The main purposes of the fighter changes are:

* Remove their power vs. ships in early-game. You used to be able to get Fighter Level I, some DUC tech, and mass some fighters for a pretty good anti-ship force if the enemy didn't have fighters themselves. I think this is well taken care of, even without the ROF reduction you're concerned about.

* Increase the diversity, interest and depth of the fighter tree, so there are various options and they can be viable weapons in late game, but only if they are researched to high levels. They should also improve fairly constantly with research, so stockpiled peacetime fighters will be meaningfully out-of-date compared to new purchases. Again, I hope I've managed this, and again, ya it doesn't need the lowered ROF.

* Change role of most fighters to tactical rather than strategic. The supply limits tend to remove or greatly limit their ability to be used without carriers, as they were in 2.5, where they could for example be massed at warp points without a carrier. Again, not related to ROF.

The more relevant part:

* Reduce the ability of "anti-fighter" weapons to blow away lots of ships quickly, with enough fighters. While I think Proportions 2.5 fighters are ok on this score when everything's taken into account, I also notice the frequent feedback that a large number of fighters with common anti-fighter weapons like DUCs, MBs, APBs, can bLast a large number of ships even if they have a good amount of PD. Doing the math, you could put 2-3 such weapons on a not-so-high-tech 2.5 fighter, and then a few dozen of them could add up a lot of damage and be hard to hit. You're right that high-tech well-designed 2.5 ships can hold their own on a cost basis if using shields and armor, but it was still quite a strong technique. Although I have addressed much of that in other ways, I thought I wanted to reduce the damage these weapons could do to ships, but not have to divide down the damage to the point that the weapons started being hard to tell apart. Halving ROF keeps the weapon damage relationships to each other, while reducing the damage to ships (except for the first volley, which remains as strong). To keep fighter-vs-fighter damage strong enough, I greatly reduced the damage capacity of fighters by changing the shields to deflectors (as you saw) and also reducing the structure Ratings of many of the components (I was thinking of reducing the weapon structure a lot too, but didn't get to that). Someone some months ago suggested using higher ROF, with the idea it could represent the time taken for fighters to maneuver onto a new target, and at first I resisted that, and still am not sure I entirely like it, but I thought it was worth a try for the reasons I just mentioned.

I have been so busy with this that I have only briefly tested the results. I think it could use a bunch of testing to see how it really turns out in practice. It's a lot more complex than before, because there are many more levels of fighter tech, and more possible designs, and I'm not sure how they might tend to encounter different ship tech levels. It will no doubt need some tweaks.

I do know that the first fighters available will now stink. They'll be like a goofy shuttlecraft with one weapon attached launched to distract the enemy and get killed. But the higher tech fighters get to be just as respectable, or more, than the 2.5 fighters... except for the ROF change.

A good testing niche is probably to look for fighters that can avoid PD easily and still mount 2-3 Meson BLasters and have supplies to fire them a lot (say 50-75 supplies).

Oh, and I had some Point Defense changes I meant to make but didn't put in yet. That will also affect the other half of the above thought problem, which is, by the time you can get those fighters without neglecting other stuff too much, how advanced are typical enemy ships? That's going to take a bit to figure out, and also depend a bit on what I do to the PDC.

In sum, I think your concern is on-target, but I don't know yet if it hits the mark! Needs testing!

(I don't think mounts can reduce ROF, but yes it is an idea to have higher-tech weapons have lower ROF.)

Time for sleep... I hope that was coherent enough. Thanks again for the feedback!

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

I did some data file digging to see how the new proportions changes affected my favorite tools.

Some things i noticed that doest seem to be right
04-08-11 20.30GMT
- Unlike stated in the preview changelog, the organic / radioactive contruction speed of ALL spaceyard (the planetary ones as well) got halved compared to the previous Versions.
- The above change may cause an issue with the build times of colonial improvements, especially the high end ones, which cost enormous ammounts of organics / radioactives, as well as minerals. So their build time is effectively doubled this way.

I know its not the final Version, then again, bringing it up can do no harm.

-------------
EDIT:
I dont even know where to start.

First of all, with the preview Version, i was able to get 65-70k research on a single medium sized homeworld by turn 24, 80k mineral production by turn 36, and 110k research by turn 70.

This is because the complexes / megaplexes are far too easy to access.

The fighter movement system is beyond my understanding. A Fighter engine x 1 , which by description gives 6 standard movement points allows my fighter to move 1! square every turn. Other than that, it looks consequent to be honest. The combat movement is 1/6 of whats specified in the description, but somehow i doubt it that this is the way it was meant to work

The description of cities / metropolis facilities and such can be confusing in some cases. Megalopolis for example states, that it gives 400 research, but in reality it only gives 200 and 100% research bonus for the planet. This can mean much when building on planets with cultural centers, as those give far higher research bonuses. In such a case, building a research megaplex, which gives 300 research without any modifiers is better than building a metropolis, as the latter only gives 200 points, and as far i know its research bonus does not stack with that of the colony world.

The tonnage space cost of some fighter engines seems to be mistyped. The one i noticed to be wrong was Small Chemical thruster III x 3, which was 8kT instead of 6kT

All in one, the mod look really good (i especially like the way cultural centers are done), but it definitely needs some more love http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Well, thats it for tonight. Hope it helps
csebal

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Essentially true. I neglected to mention that when I mentioned that radioactives rate was also halved. The build rates in general though also can be researched, in theory, up to 50% higher than in 2.5.
More or less, except for the availability of more powerful space yards. The high end colonial improvements however are also now hugely more powerful to have than they used to be, because of their multipliers on planetary output (mainly mineral and research).
Ok... this probably needs to be reduced... at least the research aspect. I think I need to reduce the multipliers and increase the base output of the cultural center, and as you say, take another look at the complex/megaplex time. I thought it'd take at least a bit longer to build those up.
I mentioned that low-tech fighters were weak. Research a bit of Fighter Propulsion tech.
Consequent? I don't understand.
It is 2 standard MP per move for every 5 kT of fighter mass, so yes a Small Fighter goes one for every 6 points of standard movement.
Yes, the descriptions for those facilities take into account their own multiplier, and assume it is the highest multiplier present. If I'd taken time to think about it longer, I might have realized I needed to re-write the descriptions to be clearer. I've been rushing to get this done, so that came out confusing, and it is a bit odd when you build one on a homeworld, or where there is a larger city. On the other hand, it does make sense for them to have diminishing effect where they are overshadowed by a larger cultural presence. The description should be reworded though, and perhaps the numbers re-considered. That ought to take me a few hours thought and cut &amp; paste... hmm...
Thanks - good catch. I think the others are as intended, but there are some interesting values. This is mainly to offer some variety and slightly more interesting choices to make. e.g.:
* Small Chemical Thruster I's, Small Contra - Terrene Engines and Small Quantum Engines are 2 kT in size but give only 1 kT structure each.
* Small Jacketed Photon Engines are smaller than others, and have less structure, and the values are a little peculiar but are as intended. The single-system is 1/1, whereas multiple engines are 1/1 + 1/0.

Yes, thanks very much!

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Ok, I set up a sreadsheet to get a handle on this, and see what's going on.

I'll be re-working the Cultural Center numbers. Looking at a release by this coming monday. Looks like I will be giving the Cultural Center a hefty intrinsic research value, and lowering the research multiplier a lot. Maybe some of that too for the resource multipliers. And the research requirements for megaplex III's will be getting a second look, too. If I get time, I may standardize the text description of all the cultural facility production numbers.

(Actually, it looks to me like SE4 is also doing some slightly weird math with the modifiers, but that's not that important. Mainly, I just hadn't done all the math to check the final numbers I had in.)

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

If there is anything i can help you with to speed up the release of 3.0, let me know. (ICQ#8876653)

btw: spotted another one:
Minor City
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>Ability 4 Type := Point Generation - Research
Ability 4 Descr := Generates 26 research points each turn.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 13
...
Ability 17 Type := Planet Point Generation Modifier - Research
Ability 17 Val 1 := 15</pre><hr />
This only gives the building about 14 research points (assuming SE4 is handling these modifiers correctly)

City
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>Ability 4 Type := Point Generation - Research
Ability 4 Descr := Generates 52 research points each turn.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 13
...
Ability 17 Type := Planet Point Generation Modifier - Research
Ability 17 Val 1 := 25</pre><hr />
Same as above, only with 25%, which gives 16.25pts instead of 52

oh, before i forget:
i would also give these buildings some intel bonus, especially the cultural centers.

What about 2000 base research / 100 base intel for cultural centers, with an added modifier of 10x to both research and intel.

This would leave a base value of 20k research / 1k intel, plus any research / intel buildings you may place on the homeworld, giving an average of 25k research (with 5 research labs)

Down from that, you could have
500% research / intel on colony world cc
200% research / intel on arcology
150% on megalopolis
100% on metropolis
75% on major spaceport cities (which should have increased costs compared to major cities)
50% on major cities
35% on spaceport cities (which again should have a cost between city and major city)
25% on cities
20% on minor spaceport cities (+price increase)
15% on minor cities
8% on colonial communities

What do u think?