MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

I'm starting to run short on games to play again, so I'm going to start up another one. It will be run on a 48 hour quickhost schedule with the following settings:

</font>

• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Karan Map</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Independent strength 6</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">15 Heroes</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">At least 8 players</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Renaming on</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">All other settings are default</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No house rules.</font>

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">
I will be playing Pythium.

[ June 01, 2004, 16:48: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

You should play T'ien Ch'i Graeme! Make it interesting.

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I'll take Calium.

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Would it be fair to take a nation if I know whats coming out on the patche? And Im sure the patch will catch us all early-mid game?

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No Gandalf, you can't use the new and improved Ubertron Machaka that climbs to the top!

Bad Gandalf, Bad!

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">All right, I'll play T'ien Ch'i then. I would like to actually play Pythium sometime though, since my only game with them so far involved a massive overrun by Ermor, Niefelheim, and Caelum all at the same time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There's no problem with that, since the game might not even start before the patch shows up.

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

Taking Abysya ^^

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I'll take Pangaea.

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I would like to have Black Forest Ulm.

But there is something that I do not understand... If I take a Vampire Queen, which I am planning on doing, and if the patch changes things about her, which I am told it will, will my Goddess change in game, or will she become illegal, or what?

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

This post will contain the current list of players:

Graeme: T'ien C'hi
Cohen: Abysia
Yvelina: Ulm
Maltrease: Caelum
Cheezeninja: Vanheim
Izaqyos: Pangaea
Reverend Zombie: C'Tis
Piratejam: Atlantis
Stormbinder: Jotunheim
Calmon: Pythium

[ June 01, 2004, 17:38: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

I'll take Vanheim

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

I will take pangaea.

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

Didn't Norfleet take Pangaea already?

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

Yes he did.
I will take Jotun instead.

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

May I take Ctis, please?

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

May I play Atlantis?

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As you'll notice in the official player list, Norfleet is not playing Pangaea.

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I noticed that.
I wasn't sure, at first, if it's a mistake or not.

Truth is I'm a bit sad at this whole Norfleet affair http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif .
I feel Dom-II player community is small enough as it is. I hope the tension will ease up in time. This is only a game after all.

Anyway, since pangaea is availble I'd rather play this game as pan.

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

I'm not surprised by this, really. There hasn't exactly been a great deal of love between us.

Maybe Graeme is scared I'll sneak into his game, play another Vampire Queen, or hack the map to favor me on his server. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, I'm simply making a decision that I won't have anything to do with a known cheater.

Now, will you please stay out of threads that deal with games that you aren't welcome in?

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

I would like to take Jotuns, Graeme, if you are still accepting players in your game.


Also are you going to play "dry" Version of Karan map or regular Version? (IMHO "dry" Version where large sea is not connected to every small pool in game is a bit better suited to MP, but maybe it's just me). It'll not affect my deciscion to join this game if it still open though.

[ May 30, 2004, 22:13: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

Whew! I am in! At least Graeme is not mad at me for diplomaticaly back stabbing him in our other game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif . Of course he is making me pay by kicking the crap out of me lol.

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Backstabing and deceiving in-game is perfectly fine, that's part of what this game is about. Cheating and lying outside the game to gain advantage for you in-game avatar, which you are secretly playing under an alias, is not.

[ May 30, 2004, 22:08: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah I know. Just trying to lighten the mood up a little.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wet Wet Wet! Not that playing Atlantis gives bias to my opinion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The normal Version.

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

It looks like we now have 9 players, so it's probably time to start gathering pretenders. Those people who have signed up can email me their pretenders at:
grdice (at) sasktel dot net

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

Is it too late to join?

I'd like to play Marignon if I may, and it's not too late.

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So you believe that you can insult him in public and he has no right to defend himself? This is bull**** Graeme. If you do not want him in your game say so without going into name calling.

Besides, nothing of what went on in that game amounts to cheating acording to the stuff that has been displayed in the relevant threads.

-So he joined a game under a different alias, so what? is that cheating in your book?

-So he got some info out of SB regarding the game in a chat forum? nobody is to blame from that save SB that did not keep his mouth shut, he was not tortured for that info, right?
Is that cheating? If NF got that info out of some other player in the game via an in-game backstab would that have amounted to cheating? You cannot make a distinction between in-game lying & out-of-game lying when diplomacy is most often than not done via e-mail.


I will tell you what _is_ cheating. Back in DomsI I joined a game (Mayhem of magic) in which the host was playing Ulm with full positive scales (all +3 except for drain & neutral weather), a citadel fort & a Cyclops RB pretender proficient in all magics...the guy had ringed the map giving himself a pretender with far far more than 500 design points. YWL was also in that game, same as JT I believe. The only time in all these years of Doms MP playing I have run into a cheater, but we spotted him easily.

That _is_ cheating: manipulating the map, the design points, the hosting or entering the game as multiple nations. Add violating whichever house rules are agreed on.

A couple lies however, is _not_ cheating in a game that allows diplomacy. Whether those lies were in-game or not is irrelevant so long as you do not set in stone that all diplomacy must be conducted via the in-game messaging.

So, drop the name calling. If you do not trust NF, just say so & move on, but do not be surprised if the guy shows up to defend himself.

This public hanging is sickening.

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

I will join as pythium if there is still an empty slot for me.

edit: changed my mind. I would take emor.

[ June 01, 2004, 17:55: Message edited by: calmon ]

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which, as you'll notice, is exactly what I did until people started telling me that I should let him in. I simply sent him a PM that he wasn't welcome, and confirmed that he was not playing in the game before that.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, it does qualify as cheating to me, and I really don't want to have to discuss it any further.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Joining under an alias falls into a very gray area. Lying about your identity when asked about it in order to gain information on a game _is_ cheating.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, it is cheating, since he lied about being the player in the game. It was Norfleet's responsibility to inform people that he was playing, and he failed to do so. That makes him a cheater.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, since that wouldn't have been using his alias to cover his true identity.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Of course you can. He didn't disguise his plans in the game, he lied about even being a player in the game.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">He lied about his identity when specifically asked about it. He lied about it in a situation where he should have specifically stated that he was playing in the game.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you read the thread, you'd notice that that is exactly what I did. I didn't even explain myself until some person decided that I should have to defend my decision to exclude Norfleet.

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

Graeme,

I realize you're probably a bit suspicious about people you don't know joining your game right now, but I would like to join your game as Marignon if that alright?

/Rainbow

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

A question on method:

how does one e-mail a Pretender? (i.e., where do I find a Pretender in the Dominions2 folder?)

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It is in the newlords directory, as the .2h file with the name of your nation.

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

>Yes, it does qualify as cheating to me, and I really don't want to have to discuss it any further.

Yet you are. And with those personal attacks you are not only soiling his reputation, but yours also. You could have simply said 'I have no fun playing with NF' instead of insulting him, by calling him a cheater.

The 'to me' part of your answer is the key of the issue, you are confusing facts with opinions, you are mixing rules & personal ethics. He did not break any rule (either explicit or implicit), thus he did _not_ cheat. You do not consider his 2 lies ethic, fine, but that does not make him a cheater and your insistence on using the term harms you as much as it harms him.

>Joining under an alias falls into a very gray area. Lying about your identity when asked about it in order to gain information on a game _is_ cheating.

Why? why should he have admitted so? so that his opponents could gang him 6on1 and then pat each others' backs after the kill? I fail to see why he should admit so while the game is running, and such admitance would only hurt his position. We all have different opinions on what is ethic or not in the game but 'cheating' is a totally different issue & the distinction should be clear.


me:
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-So he got some info out of SB regarding the game in a chat forum? nobody is to blame from that save SB that did not keep his mouth shut, he was not tortured for that info, right?
Is that cheating?
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>Yes, it is cheating, since he lied about being the player in the game. It was Norfleet's responsibility to inform people that he was playing, and he failed to do so. That makes him a cheater.

I notice that you did not answer my 2nd question. But I will rephrase it and ask it again: Say player X, Y & Z are in the same game, and in a game related thread X tells Y "do not attack me, I am weak, attack Z instead who is the biggest threat" with this being a lie. Would this be 'cheating'?

me:
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You cannot make a distinction between in-game lying & out-of-game lying when diplomacy is most often than not done via e-mail.
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>Of course you can. He didn't disguise his plans in the game, he lied about even being a player in the game.

So you can lie in Messages, you can lie in e-mail but you cannot lie in a thread about the game in a forum or chat room? Where's that rule written? what kind of logic do you use to draw the line?

>He lied about his identity when specifically asked about it. He lied about it in a situation where he should have specifically stated that he was playing in the game.

Why should he? You have yet to back this with a single reason that doesn't fall in the field of personal ethics.

Frankly, drop it. It hurts his reputation, it hurts the atmosphear of this forum, and it hurts you by giving the image of someone engaged in a personal vendetta with no solid ground to be based on. At least in my eyes as an outsider.

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I called him a cheater because he _cheated_. I _tried_ to let the issue die in this thread, but Norfleet had to show up and be a patronizing ******* _before_ I accused him of being a cheater in this thread.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Behaving in an unethical manner _is_ cheating. To cheat is to influence or lead by deceit, trick, or artifice, or to practice fraud or trickery.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not at all, since the player isn't trying to disguise their identity. A player's identity is entirely outside the scope of in-game information.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A player's identity is not in-game information about the strength of a nation or alliances.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Cheating is part of personal ethics. You cannot separate the two.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Quite frankly, I don't really care if it hurts his reputation, since he does a good enough job of that by himself.

[ June 01, 2004, 18:49: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

If it is not too late, I'd like to play Marignon.
I have never played them, but Hell, I'd like to
give them a try :-)

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It is in the newlords directory, as the .2h file with the name of your nation. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks!

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">With such a broad definition of cheating any single lie/backstab in diplomacy would qualify as tricking the opposition, and ergo 'cheating'. That would be ridiculous.

Equaling cheating to 'breaking the game rules' makes much more sense in our context as gamers.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yet when the game was created it was not requested that every player should reveal his personal information, players joined using their aliases instead. Thus, no rule was broken by hidding this, nor had he any obligation to reveal it just because an opponent asked.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Of course you can separate personnal ethics & cheating.

Setting up a big alliance to gang on a neighbour 6 on 1 giving him no chance is something I would not be confortable with ethic-wise, yet it would not be cheating. Conversely, if I am the one in the receiving end of such alliance I will moan & ***** a bit about unfairness, but I will not call my opponents cheaters.

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think this is a little unfair to Graeme. I read the thread from the first post forward. It's pretty clear that Norfleet knew that he was not wanted (or at least should have known based on the other threads he's participated in, where he was told he was not wanted). Then, like a pretentious smart ***, he tried to take a side in Graeme's game. I was expecting a big blow out fight, but in fact, all Graeme did was ignore Norfleet, setting up a nation list that did not include him. It was only after Graeme was specifically called out that he gave his reasoning; he did not want to play with a cheater.

I'm actually suprised at Graeme's restraint, and think he handled it pretty well. If you want him to lie as to why he does not want to play with Norfleet when he is asked, that's your concern.

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

I agree that "cheating" in a game context implies breaking the rules or abusing the computer program or data. Something along those lines.

I can understand not wanting players to take diplomatic deception to extremes that extend to multiple identities, chat and email and out-of-character deceptions, I think "cheating" implies something else (unless the game had explicit rules against such things).

PvK

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

Can we all just admit that everyone has valid and differing opinions on this subject, and thus prevent the hijacking of yet another thread?

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">While I chose to dive in quoting a post by Graeme it doesn't mean that I dislike him & want to engage in a flame fest with him, much the contrary, I actually have a good opinion on the guy.

But that opinion has been lessened by seeing him joining in this 'holier than thou' crussade of insulting Norfleet every now and then.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You are reading too much. I do not want him to lie, I would have said nothing if he simply had stated 'I do not like you & thus do not want you in my game'.

But I am tired of seeing posters calling Norfleet names which are totally undeserved with the info we have at hand. Graeme is not the only one who has done this, but kind of resurected it.

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

Okay. We now have 11 players, which is more than enough for the Karan map. Here is the final player list.

Graeme: T'ien C'hi
Cohen: Abysia
Yvelina: Ulm
Maltrease: Caelum
Cheezeninja: Vanheim
Izaqyos: Pangaea
Reverend Zombie: C'Tis
Piratejam: Atlantis
Stormbinder: Jotunheim
Calmon: Ermor
Rainbow: Marignon

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm afraid that somebody just beat you to Marignon, so you're out of luck for this game. I could add a twelfth player, but the map would start to be quite crowded at that point.

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I believe being Graeme the game creator, he can choose who can join his game, and who cannot ...

I don't look at reasons or not, he created, he did the rules.
We can choose if to play or not with those rules ... if we're allowed to join this game.

There're many other games where we can join too.

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

Throwing in Last little barbs to create a ruckus is as disagreeable as saying "You shouldn't play the game how you'd like and with who you'd like" and creating more of a contraversy.

I would hope that everyone would respect anyone's (In this instance Graeme's) game, both those participating and those not participating. And to understand that people may or may not want to play with others, for a variety of reasons. AND if you want to comment on any person, whatever justification, agree or disagree with them that you restrain yourself because of that respect.

And keep it at that from this point on. If you happen to not like anyone's comments, or decisions you should take them up in Private Messages.

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And here is the final player list with a notification (X) of the pretenders that I've received.

Graeme: T'ien C'hi (X)
Cohen: Abysia (X)
Yvelina: Ulm (X)
Maltrease: Caelum (X)
Cheezeninja: Vanheim (X)
Izaqyos: Pangaea (X)
Reverend Zombie: C'Tis (X)
Piratejam: Atlantis (X)
Stormbinder: Jotunheim (X)
Calmon: Ermor (X)
Rainbow: Marignon (X)

[ June 03, 2004, 13:33: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm afraid that somebody just beat you to Marignon, so you're out of luck for this game. I could add a twelfth player, but the map would start to be quite crowded at that point. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No problem, I should have read the list of
players better. Have fun guys.

Re: MP Game - Graeme\'s New Game
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm afraid that somebody just beat you to Marignon, so you're out of luck for this game. I could add a twelfth player, but the map would start to be quite crowded at that point. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No problem, I should have read the list of
players better. Have fun guys.