Mine Follies
 

So over the weekend I started a new game. To
add a bit to the challenge, I set my homeworld up as Ice/Methane. Medium number of players in a large universe. Bought organic tech since I had never tried it.

No major problems, but the lack of good planets forces me to expand into quickly. My position rises to 3rd and then tumbles to 7th. I then stumble into the 2nd place computer player who hates me. My meager empire falls farther behind the leaders, but I manage to claw my way into 5th. I fighting continual warp point battles with the 2nd place player who is now 4X my size. Luckily, I share only one contact point. I tried to break into his system; however, I hit a heavy mine field. I fall back, but he is sending waves of ships. In desperation, I start using missile dance tactics, but the force advantage is too much. He manages to find another WP on the other side of my empire. It was looking very grim.

I decided to go for mines. I have never used mines before, but I don't see any other way. I develop mines and build my first mine layer. I spend numerous turns trying to deploy mines. I remember from SE III that I need to build them, but I can't figure it out. I become frantic, then slap myself in the head realizing that I have to design the mines. Duh!

I am still playing the game. I am out numbered and trapped in a corner. The computer is sweeping my minefields and pushing through with bigger ships. I now have gas giant colonization, but I don't know if I have enough time to reach paraity with the computer.

I believe people who complain about the AI are taking all the advantages against it. It will be interesting to see if I can turn it around.


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I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.

Re: Mine Follies
 

hehe

Mine mine follies.

I built a 25-mine minefield in my first game at a penetrated warp point. Ships did not seem to have much trouble getting through. Must increase the density, so the minefield is upped to 100 mines. Still no visible sign of results.

Level two warheads. Time to redesign my mines. Doh, I had not given the first mine design a warhead.

Grognard

Re: Mine Follies
 

It is much too easy to block warp points with mines. I got sick of the same old routine of blocking with mines and building up forces while the AI wasted itself running mindlessly into the mines. I'm currently playing a game WITHOUT mines. It's so easy to just click the technology off when you start the game. This is great fun so far. Defending yourself against the AI is much more unpredictable without minefields. Unless there is a major change to mine mechanics, I think I'll be playing without mines regularly from now on.

[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 09 January 2001).]

Re: Mine Follies
 

I had a minelayer get "attacked" by a colony ship. Both ran to opposite corners, with the minelayer trailing mines the whole way, then making a big puddle in the corner. It looked like my minelayer ship got so scared that it peed itself.

Re: Mine Follies
 

I like leaving mines turned on and I just don't use them myself. Attacking through minefields can be tricky, and the AI is decent about placing them. It makes things a bit mor difficult. Especially because I limit myself to having to steal mine tech to get access to mine sweepers.

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Compete in the Space Empires IV World Championship at www.twingalaxies.com.

Re: Mine Follies
 

This is my first use of mines in SEIV. I don't use them, but in this particular game I really don't have a choice. The computer is effectively sweeping my minefields, BTW. I think it only a matter of time before it totally over runs my position.

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I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.

Re: Mine Follies
 

Well, I am trying to see how will AI handle minefields if I increase production of minesweepers in his scripts. I am still testing the changes, but from what I saw in the races files, AI just produces a low amount of mine-sweepers. It is quite possible that just by increasing its production of minesweepers it will be able to handle minefields better. It does send them to sweep mines so that is not a problem. The only question is; will he group them into fleets or not. I know for a fact that he Groups attack ships and defense ships separately and treats them separately (he usually puts defense ships in orbit of his planets or parks them in a warp point - and I really mean PARKS them http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif). Anyways, if he would group minesweepers like he does other ships, then the problem could be solved just by increasing minesweeper production (right now AI produces only one minesweeper at a time).

Re: Mine Follies
 

Daynarr - I have been attempting to test this concept with the Darloks (1.31). The AI will group carriers with the attack group, but I have yet to see Carriers + minesweepers. In my wish\list bugs thread that I sent to MM, I recommended an ON/OFF "flag" in the design file that would require the ships to be included in fleets, as a temporary cheap fix. I know the Darloks will produce at least 4-5 sweepers at a time, but I am still waiting for them to be used in fleets. . .

Re: Mine Follies
 

I never believed in mines, although the computer seem to use them sometimes... I never have problems with the AI overrunning my positions. Its not hard to defeat them, dunno why I keep hearing all these AI beating people. I found the AI sometimes sits there and never sends his 20 ships grouped into my space at all... BTW I usually start the first 20 turns of my game with less than 5 ships if that, unless I meet another race. I only keep the edges of my empire guarded with ships. I also found it is stupid to build weapons platforms.They are a big waste of resources. I just build ships, lots and lots of them, the bigger the better. I found near the middle to end games, computer's intelligence attacks get rediculous, and they are too effective, and usually overrun my counter intelligence. I think that needs to be balanced a bit. I am usually tempted to just send in a star destroyer and blow up their home systems when they sabotage me.
btw, heres a trick, build about 20 ships and park them at your warp point into your empire
The computer doesn't seem to send any ships your way if there is no path to your empire. Another thing is, colonize ALL of your system's planets, even if they are just tiny ones. It seems when there is nothing to colonize the computer doesn't want to come to you at all. If you are low on resources, build ships with boarding parties that can lower the computer's shields in a hurry. Start using the computer's own ships against him. I had the warp point to my empire guarded by ONE ship with boarding capabilities, and I would constantly snag any computer's ships that came close, then the ship would be repaired and used to guard my system.
Usually by mid to end game I have warp point manipulation capability and I have made all my systems accessable within one jump. so I can mobilize my forces extreemly fast.

Re: Mine Follies
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MoonDragn:
I never believed in mines, although the computer seem to use them sometimes... I never have problems with the AI overrunning my positions. Its not hard to defeat them, dunno why I keep hearing all these AI beating people. I found the AI sometimes sits there and never sends his 20 ships grouped into my space at all... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I haven't been as fortunate. The AI is consistently throwing mine sweepers and large fleets, 20+, at me.


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I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.

Re: Mine Follies
 

From my observations, the AI has never moved through a warp point with more than two surface combatant hulls (not aircraft carriers) at once. It appears the AI employs its surface combatants and minesweepers exactly the same. Any AI minesweepers actually sweeping your mines or pairing up with another minesweeper, when travelling through a warp point, is just random luck.

Grognard

Re: Mine Follies
 

I don't use mines usually. I am in such desperate straights in the current game that I resorted to mines. The computer throws a minesweeper through that sweeps most if not all of my mines and then follows up with a large fleet.

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I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.

Re: Mine Follies
 

Try the boarding ships I mentioned, start taking over his colony ships and colonize your unused planets in your systems... move their population around to your planets that can use them, I usually pool them on a planet with the right atmosphere til they are large enough to have be productive on their own.
Abandon your undefendable positions... I usually try to keep down the number of warp points into my systems. Start building the star destroying ships if you have the tech, It will make a difference if you blow up the system adjacent to you with the computer, he would have a longer supply line
I usually stop my empire near black holes too, that seem to slow the computer down alot

Re: Mine Follies
 

Heh, you don't use mines, but you go around destroying stars? The AI has no reasonable ability to defend its stars. I doubt it ever builds system gravity shields, and it certainly does not park mines or sats or fleets on its own stars. At least if you are using mines, you know the AI will build minesweepers and use them, even if its somewhat ineffectually.
I use mines whenever I can/need to. They seal me off for a while while I can build a fleet or research warp point manipulation, or until the AI sends minesweepers through. A lot more fair to the AI than sending in one ship to singlehandedly wipe out a whole system.

Re: Mine Follies
 

But it's so damn fun. At least till you've done it then you realize it's a little unfair. Kinda cheapens the whole game experience for me so I stopped doin it. Same w/Mines, although in a pinch I'll resort to the mine tactic.

Just call it Intergalactic Bushido.

Re: Mine Follies
 

About the only thing I will use mines for is if I have an undefended colony on the edge of an AI system I will put a few mines in orbit around the planet just in case the AI gets curious about what is going on there. I don't do this often because I also do not research mines. If I haven't got mine technology sattelites with missle weapons works also and are a quick build.

[This message has been edited by Tomgs (edited 09 January 2001).]

Re: Mine Follies
 

Mine sweep question.

I have a mine sweeper and a know location of mines. DO I have to send the ship then then use the mine sweep command? I tried using the sweep command and then picking the system I want sweept but it won't move there.
Any ideas?

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Seawolf on the prowl

Re: Mine Follies
 

Seawolf --

You should be able to just move the sweeper there, into the field. The explicit sweep command seems to be there in case you're already at the field (which shouldn't happen unless you encountered a minelayer, which then laid the mines right around your ships -- e.g. if you attack one, it panics, and drops a trail of mines while fleeing that you don't manage to entirely wipe out during the 30 turns).

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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

Re: Mine Follies
 

MoonDragon, if u don't use boarding, I'm sure you will lose some of the battles or even colonies. I dont use it cuz it makes things too easy, the AI never had security stations.

Re: Mine Follies
 

I only research mine tech to get sweepers. I am not a fan of fixed defenses (mines or bases) or the micro-managing it takes to maintain a mine field. I prefer ships/troops and am usually expanding so fast it doesn't make sense to throw up a mine field. I think I would probably use them as a planetary defense to protect against a sneak attack in a multi player game, but I have yet to see the AI use that particualar tactic.

HAL! We are on the edge of our seats. Please tell us what happened in your game. Were you able to fight back the invading hordes or did you finally fall to there onslaught?

Re: Mine Follies
 

Maintaining a minefield doesn't take much micromanaging. Build a minelayer, pick one planet to manufacture the mines and use the repeat command to have the minelayer pick up and launch mines at the warp point you want to mine. As the minefield gets swept/used up by blown up ships build some more mines on the planet.

I was wondering one thing: is it possible to sweep mines while you are at peace with someone? (Might be grounds for declaring war, but still...)

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--
"What do -you- want?" "I'd like to live -just- long enough
to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a
pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors
come with too high a price. I would look up into your lifeless
eyes and wave like this..." *waggle* "...can you and your
associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"

Re: Mine Follies
 

If you have a non agression or higher treaty with someone their mines are not affected by you nor you by them. They will be as open space to you because they are invisible and they will not detonate when you pass through. If there is another race around that has no treaty with them you may notice the dissapearing ships around the wormholes though.

[This message has been edited by Tomgs (edited 10 January 2001).]

Re: Mine Follies
 

If I don't use boarding its still not too hard. The computer just doesn't know how to build ships.. In the early game a good ship with Phased weapons will destroy their ships easy. In the late game some imaginative ship design will always beat them in tactical
In any game I always expand too fast so by mid game I got half the galaxy conquered
Its easy to conquer in a way that there are only a few points of entry into your empire...
The only vulnerable spot I see is still intelligence, when you got all the AIs sending intelligence attacks at you, its not very defendable at all, you just can't make enough projects to defend against all of them.

Re: Mine Follies
 

To Seawolf:

Another reason you may not be able to directly give the command "Sweep Mines" for your sweeper is if there is another "marked" minefield in the path that your ship travels to the minefield you want to sweep. Any ship (It seems) will not go thru a marked minefield. The only way that I know of to "unmark" the minefield is to send a ship there.

For instance, if a marked minefield is on a warp point, you may have to tell it (the ship) to go to the other side of the warp point, then "warp", THEN proceed onto the sector you want to sweep.

This was also in SE3, and can be a pain if you don't have "ship trails" turned on. It happened to me once: Had a good fleet just finished capturing a nice AI system. I sent a scout ship to the other side of a warp point and found a minefield and another nice AI system. The minefield damaged my scout and it couldn't move. I then gave the command to my fleet to attack one of the better planets in the new system. Unfortunately there was another path to that system thru 3 other systems! It (the fleet) took the long way around 'cause the minefield where the scout ship was was still marked. I did not realize the fleet took that route untill 3-4 turns later. Meanwhile, the AI went and toasted my scout, went thru that WP, and I lost quite a bit of "slave population" 'cause the AI just glassed the planets I had taken only a few turns ago.

Re: Mine Follies
 

Mostly messed around with my machine race Last night, but did put in a few turns on my Halogen game. It is looking very grim.

The AI swept part of my minefield and then punched through a 10 BB, 15 CR, and 5 CL fleet. My pitiful 5 CR and 1 CL minesweeper fled before them. I kept hearing that line from Return of the Jedi, "We can't repel firepower of that magnitude!" I am now down to six systems. I remain hopeful though. The system I just lost was a speed bump system. I have been building up behind it, and may yet be able to turn the tables.

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I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.

Re: Mine Follies
 

Hey HAL, do you realize that ANY planet can make mines and deploy them as planetary defense -- you don't need minelayers? That should slow the AI down. Make them pay dearly for every planet.

Re: Mine Follies
 

Yes, I picked that up from some of the other Messages on the board. However, my oponent is now six times large than me and a flood of ships keep coming at me.

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I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.

Re: Mine Follies
 

HAL, Put them on emergency production. You can almost always get 10 mines/turn that way. And scatter some satellites or fighters among the mines to take out minesweepers. How many ships does the AI have anyway?!?!?!? If that doesn't work, then you're doomed.

Re: Mine Follies
 

I don't know how many ships the computer has at the moment(I'll check tonight), but the production difference was 6 times greater. I don't feel doomed yet. I'll be playing a couple of more turns tonight, so expect an update.

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I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.

Re: Mine Follies
 

Ok, I got tied up working on a Totaler Krieg turn the other night, but I did manage to get in a few turns this morning.

I know that the AI isn't supposed to group minesweepers, but my minefields are consistently being swept by two or three minesweeping dreadnoughts. This latest turn he blew by 128 mines. I must be using mines differently than others. I still hate them as a general rule.

I have managed to reduce the differences between me and my enemy. He now has 4X the resource production, 2X the research and 3X the intelligence. He just wiped out a large part of my defense fleet leaving me with 25 ships to his 125+ ships.

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I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.