Reasons why the AI runs out of resources
 

1. 65 turns into the game AI has not built a single storage facility except for the default homeworld ones.

2. Uses way to many Military and Shipyard colonization designs for planets. Maybe incorporate both these designs together to make just one final design.

[This message has been edited by SunDevil (edited 10 January 2001).]

Re: Reasons why the AI runs out of resources
 

That is one of the many changes you will see if you compare the "stock" races against the new improved Sergetti, EA and Darlok.

Re: Reasons why the AI runs out of resources
 

Actually I see storage units all the time on AI planets. They are always mineral storage however except I believe some organic pick races also have organic storage. However they are always level 1 so I don't think the computer researches cargo very often. And there are far to few of them.

About shipyards I build far more of them than the computer does so I don't see that as a problem. Every planet I own except for a few tiny worlds includes a shipyard. Even while building level III facilities a shipyard can cut the time to build these facilities in half. And also after you build all the facilities a planet without a shipyard is doing nothing for you except a few units and even there you can build far more units a turn on a planet that has a shipyard.

Re: Reasons why the AI runs out of resources
 

Tomgs,

About the shipyard and military base issue, the reason this is stated is because with the ai planet design there is no real difference between the two formats. The ai shipyards and military bases look a lot alike and so that just takes up too many planets. I think that if you combine the two formats to make one format and maybe increase their ratio to be built then it much more efficient. Combined with this concept and some other design concepts I've been working on, the ai will pretty soon give much more of a challenge.

Re: Reasons why the AI runs out of resources
 

Another problem is that the AI builds research centers on a 120% minerals planet but mineral miner facilities on a planet that has almost no minerals.

Re: Reasons why the AI runs out of resources
 

I think the two biggest problems in the AI falling behind inresources is that is just awful in deciding how to use a planet, like Eisenhans said and has been wailed over in so many Posts you can't count them in a lifetime. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif The second is that it lets alot resources go to waste as overhead which a human will (hopefully) not let happen if at all possible. Most players use resources they can't store to build units without upkeep on planets that already have their full complement of facilities. At least I do. But since the AI sometimes doesn't even build anything at all for several turns it's bound to lag behind.

Re: Reasons why the AI runs out of resources
 

Actually, I think that if AI would just choose his planets for mining better, he would improve his playing so much, that it would look like opening Pandora's box. Right now, if AI gets lucky enough, and he builds mining colony on some large or huge breathable planet with lots of minerals, he can give you lots of headache (talking from experience). But so far it is only based on luck. He just doesn't consider the amount of resourced present on the planet when he selects his colony type.

MM should focus on this primarily because it is the biggest AI handicap at the moment. He just doesn't produce enough resources.

Re: Reasons why the AI runs out of resources
 

I agree totally Daynarr. If the AI would exhibit even a modicum of sense in choosing how to use it's worlds that would improve it's playing by leaps and bounds.

Re: Reasons why the AI runs out of resources
 

This may sound a bit off, but I like to switch the AI to manual and check on there progress every 50 turns or so. I may spend hours fixing the AI's inept use of resources, and thus improving the game.

It takes a lot of time, but its well worth it. Believe me, when you finally get back to your player, you will be ready for a long deserved break, and come visit these forums. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Hey look, here I am. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif



------------------
"We've made too many compromises already, too many retreats! They invade our space and we fall back -- they assimilate entire worlds and we fall back! Not again! The line must be drawn here -- this far, no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done!" -- Patric Stewart as Captain Picard
UCP/TCO Ship Yards

Re: Reasons why the AI runs out of resources
 

There is a way to make a game really difficult with a minimal effort before this gets patched. All you need to do is to edit these lines in settings.txt:

Planet Value Low Percent := 0
Planet Value High Percent := 150

You can give the low percent a value of 80 or 100, and high percent (to give more variety) 200. That will make a high resource game and nullify AI stupidity at least for selecting mining colonies, simply because ALL the planets will give lots of resources.
I should also recommend playing this in 200+ system galaxy with preferably 20 Empires in it, but it will most likely cause RC errors since most of the empires will have huge fleets.

I think this is an easiest way to get a good fight from AI.

Re: Reasons why the AI runs out of resources
 

I have also encountered this problem and i have been doing some tests with the AI_PlanetTypes file.

All the other lines in this file work just fine but the Mineral value, Organics value, Radioactives value lines work only partially IMO.

An example:

Mineral value := 110
Organics value := 100
Radioactives value := 100

This works as it is supposed i guess, because the AI "always" will reject this if the Mineral value on planet is not 110 or more. You could adjust this as long as you dont change the Organics value or Radioactives value from 100 and will keep the Mineral value above 100. Same thing works if you set the Radioactives value above 100 and the mineral value and organic value to 100 (as it will work with organics value too). I have made my own Version of this AI_PlanetTypes file which eliminates most of the problems with AI making a research compound or something else on a planet with mineral value 100+. This file also corrects the problem of AI making a mining colony on a planet with mineral value less than 100. I could upload it to the
mods thread or here if there is someone interested in it...

[This message has been edited by HreDaak (edited 11 January 2001).]

Re: Reasons why the AI runs out of resources
 

HreDaak!

It's great you made those improvements. Just - I seem to be too stupid to get your exact meaning! You write "it works as it is supposed to...". Could you explain to me how it is supposed to work and why this will fix the AI being too stupid to use planets in a sensible way? I'd be very interested in improving my games that way too. Thanks in advance.

Re: Reasons why the AI runs out of resources
 

Oh, i'm sorry if my Posts dont make much sense, but it's a bit hard to write these things in english http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif.

But here goes...

I think it is supposed to work this way:
You just keep the other two values in 100
and change third value to whatever number you want. If the third value on the planet is less than the value stated in the AI_PlanetTypes.txt file the AI will not choose this colony type.

How it works now? (Based on my observations)
If you put this third value lower than 100 it does not work. It either rejects all planets or accepts them all, i dont remember
which way it was in this case. If you change the other two values to something else than 100 it also gets screwed (regardless what the third value is).

Huh.. i hardly understand myself what i've written here http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif. I'll try to give few examples...

Example1:

Mineral value := 130
Organics value := 100
Radioactives value := 100

Now let's just forget everything else and concentrate what AI decides based on these values.

AI now has a planet with values:

Mineral 140%
Organics 105%
Radioactives 147%

This planet it will accept because the mineral percentage is above 130%, it just simply ignores the organics and radioactives value (propably because they are set to 100).

Now AI has this type planet...

Mineral 125%
Organics 5%
Radioactives 133%

This planet the AI will ignore because it's
Mineral percentage is less than 130%. Both the Organics and radioactives values are ignored.

Example2:

AI is now looking a planet with these values.

Mineral value := 100
Organics value := 110
Radioactives value := 100

It has this type planet under consideration.

Minerals 7%
Organics 115%
Radioactives 77%

It will accept this planet because the organics percentage is above 110%. It ignores the other two values (reasons same as in Example1.)

Notice the pattern...

Problems start if you change the other two values to something else than 100 or the third value to less than 100.

Forexample this does not work:

Mineral value := 70
Organics value := 100
Radioactives value := 100

Whatever the values on the planet are it rejects or accepts all planets, i dont remember which way it was, but surely this is not the way it was supposed to work...
or who am i to say how it was supposed to work, dunno...

This is also complete jibberish to to the AI:

Mineral value := 100
Organics value := 90
Radioactives value := 90

It rejects or accepts all planets regardless of their values...

You should be on the safe side as long as you keep the other two values to 100 and the third value above 100. In all the other cases it seems not to work, although this could use some more testing.

Why will it fix?

Umm, do you mean that modified AI file or something else?

You can test these value things yourself also: Just create your own modified Default_AI_PlanetTypes.txt file and put it
in data folder (remember to save the original one). It only needs 2 entries:

AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
Planet Type := Mining Colony
Max Per System := 100
Percent of Colonies := 100
Minimum Planet Size for Type := Tiny
Mineral Value := 0
Organics Value := 0
Radioactives Value := 0
Maximum Total in Empire := 0

AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
Planet Type := Research Compound
Max Per System := 100
Percent of Colonies := 100
Minimum Planet Size for Type := Tiny
Mineral Value := 0
Organics Value := 0
Radioactives Value := 0
Maximum Total in Empire := 0

Just change those Mineral, Organics, Radioactives Values and see how the AI reacts
. Use Hot Seat with two empires, the other one being AI controlled. Press F2 and choose players, from there you can choose which race is run by AI, just dont put both on AI http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif.

Any info on this subject is welcome...

Re: Reasons why the AI runs out of resources
 

New info on the subject...

Mineral Value, Organics Value, Radioactives Value:
The approximate percentage value a planet must have to be selected
as this planet type. These are used as a ratio in relation to each other.
If this is zero, then this is not used.

These are used as a ratio in relation to each other. I first thought this meant that the M/R/O values were used as relation to each other. Apparently this is not true but the M/R/O values are used in relation to this approximate percentage value.

This approximate percentage value of a planet is most likely 100%. I suppose it is
hard coded and cannot be changed. Although there is Plr Planet Value Medium Percent
in settings.txt file. Changing that number from 100 seems to have no effect.

So basically you are limited to values that are above 100. I was in error in my previous post by saying that they cant be used together. I've tested this and you indeed can
set them together.

Example:

Mineral value := 110 (1.1*100%)=110%
Organics value := 105 (1.05*100%)=105%
Radioactive value := 115 (1.15*100%)=115%

So any planet that has all three values above those percentages will be accepted by the AI.
Also any number below 101 in these values seems to have the same effect as 0.
Also values above 150 are not feasible as there are no planets with percentages over 150% (in basic settings).

Example:

Mineral value := 57 (0*100%)=0%
Organics value := 104 (1.04*100%)=104%
Radioactives value := 110 (1.10*100%)=110%

So any planet that has organics percentage of 104% or above and radioactives percentage 110% or above will be accepted. All planets have mineral value of 0% or more so it has no meaning in this case.

I dont like this method as you cant set all
colonies to become mining colonies if they
have mineral percentage forexample 90 or above. You can only make it so that any
colony with a mineral percentage of 101 or above will become a mining colony.
Unless someone finds a way to change this so called approximate percentage value.

Re: Reasons why the AI runs out of resources
 

HreDaak!

Wow that was one long message! Thanks for all those detail! That explains A LOT!. I'll start experimenting right away. OOPS I already srewed up my original file! I think I set some values to below 100.
One more question though: This will simply decide which planets will get colonized first, right? Or will it mean that all planets with all three values below 100 will become research planets? (Guess that were two questions.)

Re: Reasons why the AI runs out of resources
 

Hi HreDaak!

Nice of you to reply to me before I even asked! (When I just posted my Last message I found that while writing it you cranked out another research report)
That is some great information, thanks again!

Re: Reasons why the AI runs out of resources
 

If you set any of those 3 values to 100 or below it has same effect as setting this value to 0. Set only those values above 100
that you want AI to compare against the
planets percentage values. If the AI passes on all those comparisons (values that you set above 100) it will set this planets
colony type to whatever was stated on the
Planet Type line as long as every other condition is also fulfilled.
The other conditions are in my opinion pretty much self evident...

Re: Reasons why the AI runs out of resources
 

Thanks again! I think I got it now(kind of). At least enough to do some thorough experimenting. I do feel empowered now.

Re: Reasons why the AI runs out of resources
 

HreDaak-

Have you been modifying the AI_Default_PlanetTypes file or a making one for a specific race. The reason I ask, is that a very extensive one for the Darloks, but had to resort to a more default approach when I realized all the tweaking was not effecting their decisions. My thoery at the time was maybe this file had a problem similar to the Strategies file in that the game was only reading the default file, not a specific file placed in the race's directory.

Re: Reasons why the AI runs out of resources
 

I agree. In the bug/wish list thread, I suggested that we remove these lines from the "Settings" file so that they are hardcoded. This would then enable the AI_PlanetTypes file to be useful b/c the mineral percentages criteria for choosing planets can be based on static mineral values instead of "relative" comparison values which does not appear to be working currently.

Re: Reasons why the AI runs out of resources
 

I will get into this in some time but this is just GREAT! Thank you very much for the insight!

Re: Reasons why the AI runs out of resources
 

Atrocities, seems you have already significantly improved the construction files for the standaard AIs. Would you mind posting your Versions ? Thanks !

Re: Reasons why the AI runs out of resources
 

Another reason that you find mineral mining planets on worlds that have low mineral percentages is that the catchall world type (the Last entry in each section) is a mining colony world. This means that any world that isn't used as any other type becomes a mining planet. If you change this I don't know what would happen you might be able to make it into a research or other type world instead but there has to be a catch all or there might be errors cropping up. Thats why there is a mining colony type at the end of each section that has a maximum of 100 worlds per system.

Re: Reasons why the AI runs out of resources
 

FYI - I did some major testing on this file Last night (well, ok at least three hours worth). Set up the AI_Default_Planet_Type file to only create "Construction Yards" and set up a sample [Race]_Planet_Type file to only create "Military Installations" In each case the, game stopped using both of respective files after 7 or 8 planets in several different games. There must be some defaults or max imbedded in the game itself.

Then I went back the [Race]_Planet_Type file and took out all the 100's (i.e. if I want mineral planet chosen in all cases in which Min>110) I put:

Mineral Value = 110
Organic Value = 0
Radioactives Value = 0

But I made sure there were several catch-alls at the end of the file. You know what, this time it followed the file 100% of the time for a total of 31 planets colonized (as far as I got Last night. I guess the conclusion I reached is that this is a very fragile file and modders should carefully test any changes they make by testing it in several different galaxy, tech level and planet start types and I would not recommend changing the AI_Default_Planet_Types for this reason. Of course, this does not mean that the individual races cannot have their own Planet_Type files http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[This message has been edited by Tampa_Gamer (edited 16 January 2001).]