AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

I sent an e-mail to Aaron to ask him when the next official AI update would be released. If it's going to take more than a couple weeks for the next patch (disregarding TCP/IP), then I would highly suggest we create an AI Mod Consortium.

This would consist of maybe 5-10 of the top people here on the forum including: Mephisto, Tampa_Gamer, Daynarr, Talenn, Jubala, Derek, SunDevil, and myself.

If anyone feels they should also be apart of this let me know, but I want to keep the group small. I believe Mephisto should be the group leader (if he'd like) because he abides most closely to the ideology we need: We don't want to stray too far from the developer's initial vision. Create a better and more believable AI.

Once I get a response from Aaron; if he states it will be more than a couple of weeks, then we can start a thread here, or I will create a brand new forum just for this. Either way, we should enjoy output from EVERYONE concerned.

Mephisto, Tampa_Gamer, Daynarr, Talenn, Jubala, Derek, and SunDevil: Please reply here and post your feelings on this, and whether we can count on you. Since I'm on disability due to my Cystic Fibrosis, I have lots of time to coordinate all out efforts.

Remember this will be a small coordinated group effort. We have the possability to improve the game (maybe even more-so than MM can do, since their resources are EXTREMELY tapped and limited).

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

As for me, I have two problem.

First: I haven't really played around with the AI yet, but rather most of the other files. So AI modding is something relatively new to me.

Second: I feel no such compunction to stick to what MM intended. In fact, I like making big changes http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

So, while I appreciate the recognition/notice, I doubt I could do as good a job as you are looking for.

Derek

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

PS: But I am willing to try!

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

Sounds like a great idea if MM is willing to accept that we alter their races. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
If we concentrate on making the AI races better with what there is I think MM is much more willing to include it in any patch.
But if we all agree on a new tech we can ask MM to add it anyway. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
If we really really need a team leader I would do it but I think it should work quite well without a "big boss".
Jpinard, it would be great if you can do the "manage" part.
BTW: We always could use some testers for our Mod (I always could at least). Someone willing to do this?

P.S.: I hope MM will answer this one quickly. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

This is nice idea, jpinard.
I am in.
Considering all the work that is done so far for SE4 by other moders I think that all of us could only benefit by such cooperation.

Just a side note; I am currently working on improvement of all the standard AI empires. Improvement in this case means that I don't intend to change AI personality or their research preferences or their general behavior, but to just improve on it. Sergetti is just a first one of those races, and I am using them to get a better insight of AI behavior. So far they are in final stages, and only thing left to do is testing. Right after I finish modifying Sergetti I would like to improve other standard races as well.
This will take a lot of time and work so any help will be welcome.

I have discovered some interesting ways to improve AI, so I will be sharing them as soon as I am able to test them.

PS: This was a looong 'side note' . http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

I'm in.

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by [K126]Mephisto:

BTW: We always could use some testers for our Mod (I always could at least). Someone willing to do this?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you are looking for a tester from outside the design group, I could do it. I'm probably much better at analyzing than designing.

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

Jpinard-

Looks like you got a positive response. I like the "manager" concept with you coordinating things, but I don't think any of us need another "boss" in line with what Mephisto said. Now, if you get a positive response from MM - we can set an agenda/or goals of some sort so we don't waste time duplicating efforts.

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

We need to come up with a standard to use as a base for all future improvements/ modifications. And it seems each mod race that has been created so far, has been all modded in different aspects. We just need to put them together. I'm going to try to post some changes and discoveries I've made of the Last two weeks. In the games I've tested so far, the ai is much more of a challenge. If only the ai could rebuild on a full planet with upgrades.

Tampa_gamer: I've looked over your files, and you do a great job adding things. I've used your files as a base and have added a lot to the way the AI researches things, how and where colonies are built, and some more useful ship designs.

[K126]Mephisto: I haven't got a chance to really look over your latest Version of your mods but what can I say, you've made great strides with your race. You definitely have some nice ships designs. I didn't see much revision in your latest files in regards of how/what the ai builds on planets but I could be wrong. I'm sure it will be fun to work with you.

Daynarr: I've looked over your race and was quite impressed with the changes you made with your race, but still trying to figure out your research strategy. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

SunDevil-

Thanks. I took a lot of time to maximize the research tree. I played it myself (all the way to the end) and kept track of the points/projects used and the order so I could maximize under-utilized project points. I am currently testing a heavy re-vamped "Planet_Types" file based on some other threads. It will be incorporated in my next Version.

In terms of a "base" what exactly do you mean? I think the EA, Sergetti and Darlok are all "pure" mods in the sense they do not alter data sets or default AI files.

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

Well, I certainly like the idea. I'm just not sure how much use I'd be to it though. My data set is pretty heavily modded.

IMO, there are plenty of unbalanced and/or no brainer items in SE4 that were the focus of my early efforts. I'm quite pleased with the results and with the AI I have modded to account for the changes. Note that most my changes dont include adding 'Level 4 Gadgetron' so I can blow stuff up easier or anything like that. In fact, I have VERY few new items at all.

Most of my changes center around rebalancing and/or tweaking many of the items already in the game. I've still been doing a fair amount of work on it and I'm not quite willing to abandon all that at this point. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

If there is any theoretical help I can give, I'm glad to share it though. I'd like to still sit in and make suggestions and comments if y'all dont mind that. Also, of course, some changes are universal across data sets so I might still be useful there too.

Thanx,
Talenn

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

Tampa_gamer:

I just did the whole research thing as well.
It took me a total of 10 hours and six pages to write everything down. Anyway what I was thinking was, for the neutral races have them research everything in a numerical order.

For example I call this round 1. In other words this is the first phase of research for a neutral race.

Round 1 &lt;= 20,000
1.Projectile Weapons 5000
2.Planetary Weapons 5000
3.Smaller Weapons 5000
4.Repair 10,000
5.Propulsion 10,000
6.Explosive Warheads 10,000
7.Ship Construction 20,000

Now the benefits for a neutral race to go through the research tree in order(as in researching the least costing items first) would be first that it doesn't tie itself up in the beginning with large projects. Two it will have a balanced research plan so it can discover things in order and not have to go back. Third if/when MM gets the whole trade aspect of the game right, you know that you could trade/steal research in an area that you might not of covered yet and it will be guaranteed that a nuetral race would at least have the first couple of levels in the field researched already.

This helps because the neutral races will actually have a balanced ship design and colony design because they will research all fields and not just specialize. This will make the ai harder to beat in combat because now you need a balanced fleet to fight the neutral ai.

Damn this is a long post. Give me some opinions about this strategy.

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

Talenn,

Just describing what you modified and why could give everyone a better understanding of the game's ai. I would definitely want you to sit in and give suggestions and theories because I have yet to read a post of yours that I didn't learn something from, except for maybe your Last one. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

It is very good to coordinate all that modding. Since I'm new to modding myself I won't be able to contribute much at the moment, but I am interested to learn from the masters. Would you please not forget to keep the interested public informed? Something like: we did this to achieve that would be nice from time to time (maybe a thread like "news from the ebony tower" or so http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif )

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

Great idea! I've been toying with the idea of releasing my custom files as a mod, but that means I'd have to work on them to make them consistent and write a bunch of explanations. It would be much easier to send my ideas to the mod consortium, like 'We should add some boarding DEFENSE ability to boarding parties. Security stations aren't the only way to defend a ship. Boarding parties are MARINES, right? So they ought to defend as well as attack.' http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Also, you ought to make coordinated parts of this "standard mod" so people can use parts that they like. What if I want the best planet selection/colony build queue for the AI, but want to keep my own components? Make sure that the parts that are not inherently dependent (designcreation and components for example cannot be seperated, or AI research and techareas) are not linked unecessarily so you can use them seperately.

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

Great idea guys. I only have one comment or question. That is, ability to add race set(s) without overiding others. and ease of doing it....some of us (ME!) aren't too swift at adding these things (took me 3 tries to get the EA MOD installed correctly and it actually in hindsite is very easy to add).

I would, as Londo commented, love to have say the EA fight the Romulans and a Star wars race in the same game. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[This message has been edited by pathfinder (edited 12 January 2001).]

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

I am game. However, my time varies. Some weeks I have a lot of time (very few deals closing) some weeks I have no time (deals + wife steals mouse and backup mouse). Anyway, I initially changed a lot of things in my game (Tampa_Gamer Mod ver 1.00 posted way back) and then due the volume of changes coming out in each patch, decided to take Mephisto's route. However, having said that I did like a lot of the changes Derek made and would not be opposed to coming to a consensus on changes we all agreed upon. If we all agreed - perhaps MM would be more likely to include it in the next patch, then it would no longer be a "mod"!

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

Great idea. It would be a Godsend for me. I've added peoples mods, done some of my own, added sets and races, tinkered with AI's and frankly, I've lost track of exactly where I am and what I've altered. A centralized uniform collection of these might help keep all these changes straight for those of us suffering from impaired organization.

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

I'm in, but I can't promise to always have time. Don't know how much time my courses will take this semester. My tweaking of the AI has so far been centered around getting it to build more base space yards early and colonizers late in the games. Quite succesfully I might add. I have also tried to get it to build troops and use them but not with the same amount of succes. It builds them and loads them on ships and moves the ships around, but I have so far not seen it invade anyone.

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

Excellent responses so far. I like the idea of no central boss as well, so that's one less thing to think about. Everyone please read the new thread here which has 2 e-mails from MM responding to this idea:
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/For...ML/000935.html

Second I'd like to extend the strength of this consortium for three different things:

1. As Daynarr and several others stated, there is a lot that can be done with just making edits to the races themselves. I feel we should leave all the default races alone(for those just starting the game), but create new Versioned races based on the originals with a slightly modifed name. Like Sergetti-1...
This way people won't be too worried about losing (overwriting) anything with a "total mod-patch" which will add (EASILY) lots of new, verified, complete races.

2. We now have the opportunity to help MM patch every AI concern we have. I'm sure they do not have the time to look at EVERYTHING, so we need to consolidate the most important problems and show what has been fixed on our own. This will maximize the amount that can be added to the next patch.

3. Anything not included in the patch, we can work from to add later as a Space Empires IV "added game type". Such as extened technology trees, added ship types, etc etc. People could choose and install that which piques their interest most. When it's posted by us, people will know they can play and install without risk... that it will be balanced and fun.

Lastly, don't worry if you're short on time. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif That's the reason for having a group of dedicated people. Everyone has a life outside of Space Empires, right?? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

jpinard-

Great job getting everyone's attention and a response out of MM! A lot of the requests seem to be for MM to add or change the way an existing file works in order for the fans to have greater flexibility in AI modification, which will hopefully result in a smarter AI. My question is, until the patch comes out in a couple of weeks, what do you plan for the consortium to concentrate on? I think until the patch comes out, modders will be hesitant to make any drastic changes. Perhaps we can put together a "Mod Consortium Pack #1" that will combine Mephisto's Mod, the EA, the Darlok, the Sergetti, the Esyk? and the universal fix to the Default_Design which fixes the ECM/Sensor bug which are all mods that DO NOT overwrite any data files (other than my additional formation for the Darlok which I will remove if people want me to) but provide additional AI challenges until the patch comes out. Sorry if I left any other mods out that do not modify the data files. Thoughts. . .

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

Tampa, that's a good idea.

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

That is a GREAT idea! I understand that even though I like drastically changing the game with new components, tech, hulls, etc... not everyone likes that, and combining all the racial mods into one file that doesn't modify the basic races is perfect (except for that durn ecm/sensors issue...) for those people.


Derek

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

That is a good idea, Tampa. It is better to put the stuff together now and see how it works, before more of it comes out (like more races). But DON'T use the current Version of Sergetti. It is a sort of beta (I was trying some things there) and I will post complete Version in a few days.

[This message has been edited by Daynarr (edited 15 January 2001).]

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

If you guys want to start a centralized place for modifications to the game I would not mind hosting it if you can't find space.

Currently we have fan created fan sites for all of our other games on our website.

------------------
Sarge is coming...

Richard Arnesen
Director of Covert Ops
Shrapnel Games
http://www.shrapnelgames.com

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

He, cool! That's a word!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Richard:
If you guys want to start a centralized place for modifications to the game I would not mind hosting it if you can't find space.

Currently we have fan created fan sites for all of our other games on our website.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

OK, Mephisto and Daynarr if we wait till say the end of the week, will that be enough time for a new Version of your mods or do you want to wait until early next week so you have another weekend to work on them? For the Darlok, I am the process of tweaking the planet_type files I finally got working correctly and revamped the design file (also Nyx and Voidhawk are working on a speech set and shipset for the Darlok, respectively) so I should be ready by the end of the week.

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

I don't know if I can work on this till next week. But we could put the MOD out with the EA Version 1.6.
Who will make up the final package?

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

Doesn't matter to me. . .jpinard you out there? I guess my vote would be for jpinard if he wants to or yourself, otherwise I can do it towards the end of the week, but not on weekends (only a 56k connection at home). Probably good to retain a separate readme for each specific race (in the race folder) like we have now and we should make one central readme for installation instructions, give credit to those who made the mods http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif and explain our philosophy of not modifying the data files (yet).

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

Well, Sergetti should be finished by the end of the week.
I would like if you would post your modified planet_type files, it's universal for all races, and I just don't have time to mess with it.
Btw, is Nyx responsible for making that Xenophobe speech file? I would like to give him a credit if he is.

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

Howdy all,
Just saw this thread. I think what you guys are doing is great. While I don't think I have the time to participate fully in your group I certainly be willing to lend a hand from time to time.

I really haven't done anything to the AI files(except install some of your Mods). I was/am more interested messing up/with the vessels, tech tree and components.

I have two big immediate wishes in relation to the game code.
WISH 1. I would like to be able to specify by component, (component=vessel(hull), component, facility, and enhancement) what specifically would be the maintenance cost for that component as a percent of its build cost.

*** Related Idea 1: Give us a line in the Settings file that we can set the frequency of the maintenance cost charge in game turns. (now it defaults to every turn unless I am missing something.)

AND/OR

*** Related Idea 2: Give us 2 lines somewhere in Settings or the AI race files that allow us:
( 1 ).to set the maintenance percent cost for any named race.
( 2 ).to set the frequency of the maintenance charge, in game turns, for that race.

WISH 2. I would really like to see an option for a more interesting planet surface combat abstraction. It wouldn't have to be complicated. Could suggest a model if anyone's interested. ( I know this one might be a pain codewise.)

Well, that's it for now. Keep well, Live Long and Prosper.

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

Here are three files that I have so far edited.

The first is the default ai research files which is reordered into the least expensive projects to the most expensive projects. By doing this you balance out the research path for the ai.

The second is default ai colony construction file which really helps the ai build their colonies better. (Warning, at the beginning of the game, the ai will not use up all the room on the bigger planets. It will fill up the planet later on when facilities become available. I've found that this doesn't hinder the ai that much, and only makes that mucher better in the late game area.)

The file is ai colony types, I combined the space yards and military installation because I felt they served the same purpose.

Hope you enjoy. Please post any comments you have, I would like to hear them.

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

Has anyone else reworked the ai research files? I would like to see what changes you made. Thanks.

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

SunDevil - check out the Darlok research file.

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

Tampa_gamer:

I didn't see any recent posting of your new race. If the Version is still 1.31 then I have seen your latest posted Version. Have you made any more revisions to your races's research file?

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

Oh Ok. No, latest Version is 1.31. We should be posting a combined mod sometime early next week, it will be in there. What I have done in the meantime is tweak the heck out of the planet_type file and pull all research and vehicle construction calls to anything which the AI does not use (i.e. boarding ships, troops, cloaking, etc.) until it is fixed in forthcoming patches.

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

Tampa_Gamer:

Two questions:

1.What kind of research have you pulled? Do you mean just the research projects that are related to the components that you pulled out?

2. Have you looked at my documents that I posted yet? What do you think of them?

Thanks.

[This message has been edited by SunDevil (edited 16 January 2001).]

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

SunDevil, you should sort out tech areas the AI is not using, such as repair (and, at the moment, planet util.).
Have you tested the Facility.txt? I'm not sure if it will work ok with supply generation only the 5. point on a planet.

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

[K126]Mephisto:

Yes the supply works fine. I've tested it out with three games now and supply generation facilities are being built.

I am kind of confused on your topic about sorting out tech because the ai is not using it. The only reason I can think of the ai not using them would be because the repair is not being added to the ship designs (because a shipyard can repair and build). And for planet utilization, the ai does build those things on their planet because the ai leaves room for them to be built and also I declare them in the ai facility construction file. One thing that I have noticed is that planet utilization research isn't a high priority for the default ai.

Thanks for the feedback.

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

In fact the AI is not using the following techs AFAIK in any ship:

Repair
Bio
Bio Weapons
Planetary Weapons
Null Space Weapons
Computer Combat

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

[K126]Mephisto:

But doesn't the ai just need an updated ai_design_creation file that would incorporate the components you just mentioned into a ship design. Whether or not the ai would actually use those things in combat\during gameplay I don't know, but the ai can't use them when they aren't included in any design. Thanks for the reply http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

SunDevil-

Havn't had a chance to look at your files yet, probably not till tomorrow (I am still at work http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif and will be for quite some time).

I believe Mephisto meant these were not used in any of the design files.

What I meant below was that even if you include boarding ships, cloaking, ramming warheads, etc. the AI will not use them - try it in the simulator or at any point in a level 3 game, check out the AI fleets - none of them will be cloaked, not even recon sats. So yes, I pushed those techs to the very end of the research file where my "catch-all" clauses are located.

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Btw, is Nyx responsible for making that Xenophobe speech file? I would like to give him a credit if he is.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup that's one of mine. If you use it just include the readme file that accompanies it as it technically is Twin Galaxies'.

If I weren't so dang busy I'd have two more for you.

------------------
Compete in the Space Empires IV World Championship at www.twingalaxies.com.

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

I have modded a Crew Quarters component with the ability to do 1 repair a turn.

Adding the qualities(abilities) you want to components you know the AI to be using may be one way around the issue.

Whether or not the AI will use those abilities even if it has them is another issue. I'm not even sure I'd know how to test that.

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

I have included one repair module on each CA and higher Defense Ship for the Darlok. It works automatically.

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

Yeah, Nyx is the one who created the xenophobe speech file. On the Planet_Types file, the one I created is specifically for the Darlok b/c their default tiny, useless planet is for an Intel planet, but you could easily convert this to the Sergetti, tweak it and place it in their race folder. That way you wouldn't modify all the other races. Let me know and I will e-mail it to you. Just making this one file work how I want it, has dramatically increased the intelligence of the Darlok planet choices and therefore solved a lot of their resource problems.

I would not replace the AI_Default_Planet_Types file b/c I assume MM has tweaked this to provide a generally ok mix of planet types for all races, across all galaxy types, across all tech levels, across all start levels, across all starting planet types, etc. etc. But I have no problem with tweaking it for a specific race and placing it in their subfolder http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[This message has been edited by Tampa_Gamer (edited 16 January 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Tampa_Gamer (edited 16 January 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Tampa_Gamer (edited 16 January 2001).]

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

Tampa_Gamer:

(1)AI Construction Facilities:

1. Yes the ai does go back and fill in the remaining spots on the planet.

2. Stupid Mistake for both - I was wondering why there were an extra amount of military bases! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Thanks.

(2)AI Research File

1. Got a point about leaving out tech, will wait for next patch to decide.

2. The research order was for two reasons. To have the neutral races research things in a balanced way, and not have them research only two fields. And two to get a better understanding of the whole research process in general.

3.Looking into helping the neutral races building more rapidly. But with my Colony_Construction file, the neutral races will build more reserach facilities.

(3)Default Colony Types:

1. I modified this file because I didn't see a purpose in having a military installation and shipyard as two seperate colony types. Yes I think that if the ai can be fixed to build colonies more efficently then I will think about adding even more types, but for right now, you need to keep it simple and small for the ai to actully build efficently.

I do plan on adding this to specific race. I just have been doing a lot of research so I will be able to actually make a truly special and dangerous race. I am in no rush to finish the race due to the fact that right now there needs to be some changes made to the internal game.

Thank you for your suggestions and I'm looking forward to your next update of your race.

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

I will see what I can do tomorrow for the EA. I have a final Version already here that I will post to you, Tampa or you, JPinard. Not much change so.

Re: AI Modding Consortium - Please read
 

Sorry guys for lack of responses from me, I got caught up by that evil beast called real life. Sergetti will be ready till Monday, no sweat.
Tampa, I am going to send you that mail about that planet types file as soon as I get time (didn't forget about it http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif).