AI is BETTER??
 

Installed 1.19 and Mephisto's mod Lastnight and started a game with the B5 shipset. The AI behaved so much WORSE!! I only played one 1.11 game before 1.19 patch and in that game I was defeated by an AI around turn 50 who sent a feelt of 12 light crusiers (I had a 11 destoyers and frigates fleet).

The only wierd thing I Had with that game was that the AI actually had a light carrier accompanying that 12 lt. cruiser fleet but during the entire course of the war, it didn't have even one single fighter in it.

Now with 1.19, I expect some even stronger forces... I ended up encountering nothing but ships in pairs... that is, I have not even seen an ai fleet with more than 2 ships in it now that I own half the galaxy... am I doing something wrong??? how could this be fun? I just got the game Last week as a gift so I really hope there is something I didn't set up right! plase help!

ps I started both games at the hardest AI setting with no AI advantages.

Pss, Another evidence of a really BAD AI: the first race I had destroyed in my 2nd game, I destroyed em with merely 2 frigates armed with missiles.. I ended up destroying all of the enemy frigates, sats, destroyers and weapon platforms by a simple hit and run tactic. Because of the entire enemy empire, they don't even have one missile launcher.. (and the fact that their ships were slower than mine made the job so much easier, and boring).

Re: AI is BETTER??
 

In my current game, my partners have repeatedly stopped by my territory with fleets of 7+ ships (mostly LCs, CAs, and CVLs). This is Hard AI/Low Bonus.

In my 1st game post-1.19 patch, I was losing on two fronts: the Krill Dominion (home system 1 jump from mine) and the Sergetti Empire (damn phased polaron beams). The Krill never had enough ships to form a big fleet, but the Sergetti smashed one of my planets with a 10-ship fleet. This is Hard AI/Medium Bonus.

I haven't played a game with no bonuses since at least the retail Version (1.01?), but I know for certain that, with the bonuses, the AI becomes a serious threat.

Re: AI is BETTER??
 

I lost one game Last night to the Co-Cappa who sent a 13 ship fleet and creamed my home system (6 planets) in 6 turns...

Just got my tail smacked by 1 20+ fleet in an outlying system by the crystal AI...
so my guess you just got a bad "roll" for the AI during that game.

hehe, try another bud...they'll mass and smack ya ...eventually...

Re: AI is BETTER??
 

Well, the AI is definately more hostile (a GOOD thing) and it seems a bit more capable as well. I had never seen the AI mass ships like it did in my first two gaems with 1.19. I was used to 2s and 3s but a squadron of 6 Light Cruisers came in and glassed my forward colonies one after another unlike the patented 'wander and thrash' of the previous Version.

I'm fairly happy with it with High Difficulty, Low Bonus and 3000rps to my 2000. It gives a pretty good game now. Certainly I could smash it with mines etc, but when you play on equal footing, its not too bad.

Finally, yes, the 'missile dance' is definately the way to go on the early game. Only about 40% of the races actually use Missiles and the rest will die miserably to this tactic. I have trying to come up with a workaround of some kind, but the current movement system doesnt really allow for much. Its just too easy to run in, launch and run out until they are pounded to mush.

One thing I have done is to make a crude PD weapon available at the start of the game. This has at least helped blunt the early missile supremacy. Later in the game, Missiles are worthless against anyone who will build a good number of PD ships. To compensate, I've increased the cost of researching PD guns. At 5000 vs 15000 for better missiles, it was clear that it was impossible for the offense to keep up with the defense in that regard.

Anyways, FWIW, I've found the AI to be far better than under 1.11. It takes issue with your expansion early enough to offer resistance BEFORE its too late. It also seems to keep its ships together a little better and it seems to prioritize destruction of enemy colonies a little higher.

Keep plugging at it and try giving them the Low bonus. It really helps them, especially in the research dept.

Talenn

Re: AI is BETTER??
 

Great!! can't wait til works over and even though it's friday night I guess I'll skip the bars and clubs to once again lead my puke empire.

if the AI still wont put up a fight though, I guess I'll just go make shipsets and wait for MM to get back from their vacation.

Re: AI is BETTER??
 

What forces were so weak? Earth Alliance?

Anyway, sometimes the AI has just bad luck. If there is no good planet for them they will sometimes choke themselfs with their production, never getting to the point of building fighters. I have seen this in my privat playtesting.

You should make sure you
1.) play with research and not all tech available from start-up. The AI will use the tech but will also build lot of (wasted) research facilities.

2.) Play the battles in strategic mode. Imagine the AI as a player that runs his empire with a script. It's not a problem to beat him if you manually work around his script (missiles hit and run) but if you try to beat him with your own script, it becomes that much harder.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Puke Empire:

Installed 1.19 and Mephisto's mod Lastnight and started a game with the B5 shipset. The AI behaved so much WORSE!! I only played one 1.11 game before 1.19 patch and in that game I was defeated by an AI around turn 50 who sent a feelt of 12 light crusiers (I had a 11 destoyers and frigates fleet).

The only wierd thing I Had with that game was that the AI actually had a light carrier accompanying that 12 lt. cruiser fleet but during the entire course of the war, it didn't have even one single fighter in it.

Now with 1.19, I expect some even stronger forces... I ended up encountering nothing but ships in pairs... that is, I have not even seen an ai fleet with more than 2 ships in it now that I own half the galaxy... am I doing something wrong??? how could this be fun? I just got the game Last week as a gift so I really hope there is something I didn't set up right! plase help!

ps I started both games at the hardest AI setting with no AI advantages.

Pss, Another evidence of a really BAD AI: the first race I had destroyed in my 2nd game, I destroyed em with merely 2 frigates armed with missiles.. I ended up destroying all of the enemy frigates, sats, destroyers and weapon platforms by a simple hit and run tactic. Because of the entire enemy empire, they don't even have one missile launcher.. (and the fact that their ships were slower than mine made the job so much easier, and boring).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Re: AI is BETTER??
 

By the way, the AI *should* be better. It does seem to have a problem when many enemy empires are present. In a test game I surrendered all empires to one (the Phong). After this "my" AI went straight into offensive (with over 20 sips) and rushed through 2 systems, was not stopped by a minefield and destroyed every enemy colony within reach AFAP. I could not have pressed the attack more. If the AI puts up this fight to me, I'm in seriuos trouble.

Re: AI is BETTER??
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>1.) play with research and not all tech available from start-up. The AI will use the tech but will also build lot of (wasted) research facilities.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think that this issue should have been fixed with 1.19 patch. Haven't tried it yet though (I always play with the low starting research).

Btw. AI is not harder. It is a MANIAC. More aggressive, huge fleets that really strike, he explores your weak points in defense and uses them. I am currently in war with empire that is 1st on the score list (I am 4th). I have about 4-5 warp points that border his empire. So far he has tried to just storm in, then he tried to get through the black hole, establish a resupply base and then moved 4 carriers in orbit there filling them with fighters (thanks Mephisto http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif). When that didn't work he now tries to storm my weakest system (and maybe most important one, I have 1 huge colony and lots of research facilities there). So far I have reached about 100 turns and I am constantly on defense. This is a:
-250 system mid-life galaxy
-20 AI players on difficult setting, NO bonus
-Low research at start and high research cost

Also a note, I have very stable partnership and brotherly relation with Ukra-tal. That guy is in war with his 2 neighboring nations, so I have no treaties with them. So far I have noticed that Ai now is much more consistent in politics and making treaties, and won't rush into partnership in 5 turns like before.

Now this is the most interesting game so far for me. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: AI is BETTER??
 

I started a new game after loading the patch (my 1.11 game had reached a point where I had partnerships with the 2nd place player, I'd completely destroyed the AI that started in my home system, and I was on my way to developing ringworld/sphereworld parts). Anyway, in the 1.19 game, I started in the same system as the Terrans, and another AI is on the other side of one of my warp points (as I discovered when they came through the warp point and blew up my colony ship). And the Terrans are definitely aggressive - they attacked one of my homeworlds once a turn for two or three turns straight (about time they kept up an attack...). I'm trying to defend myself with escorts, DUC 1's and CSM 1's when my enemies have destroyers and frigates with CSM 2 or 3 and various beam weapons. Fortunately, some CSM weapon platforms have been saving my planets.

I just wish I had more time to play...

Re: AI is BETTER??
 

One more point - after reading this thread and a few others, I think we've fallen into the "be careful what you wish for" trap... MM has done a pretty good job of fixing the AI. It's not perfect, but neither am I...

Long live the Moebius Consortium (I hope)!

Re: AI is BETTER??
 

"Installed 1.19 and Mephisto's mod Lastnight..."
Well, the mod could have caused the trouble, and some of the empires are designed to be less aggressive.

Re: AI is BETTER??
 

The AI definitely puts up a bigger fight especially in the early game if you give it a bonus. I am trying to tweak the AI to expand a bit more and keep up a bit better for the middle and end game. They don't seem to take over other AI worlds often and so after I demolish 2 or 3 empires I usually have a substansial lead. I don't know if there is anything that can prevent that except by artificially limiting what I do but I will try a few things and see. There is a setting that says that the AI only guards 3 systems I will try to increase that number first and see if it expands a bit more. If that dosen't help I will try to change a few ship designs and see if I can get some empires to send some time taking over planets with troops. Is there a setting somewhere that tells them to build more troops?

Re: AI is BETTER??
 

Mephisto do you edit the default construction vehicles.txt file in the AI folder to do that? I wonder because the default strategies.txt in the AI folder used the correct settings for troop transports but it wasn't being used. The one in the data directory was used instead and it had an incorrect secondary strategy.

Hopefully if they expand a bit more they will have more resources to spend to maintain a larger fleet. At least thats how I do it so we will see.

Actually I almost never use planet utilization either unless I get it from an ancient ruin. I start in low tech usually and by the time I get around to researching that tech I usually am 5 times as powerful as the nearest AI at least and have so many ships its a pain to manage them all. Sometimes one turn will take over an hour at that time. I am considering uping the cost of larger ship hulls and maybe some of the higher end components, I could also increase the expense of the larger weapons mounts to reduce the amount of larger ships in the late game.



[This message has been edited by Tomgs (edited 23 December 2000).]

Re: AI is BETTER??
 

FWIW, I'm into my first game with verison 1.19 (no mods). I'm early in the game and I just watched the 3rd place empire trash a whole system of the 2nd place empire with a fleet of 12 light cruisers. I have trade alliances with both and posted a scout there to watch the carnage. The attacking empire was ruthless and it was something that I never saw in verison 1.11.

It worried me enough that I think I'm going to take out the 3rd place empire first. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: AI is BETTER??
 

You have to copy a Default_*-file into the race folder and rename it to Race_*. The race will use this file. If not present, it will look in the AI-folder and use the Default_*-file.
The Strategy-file is an exception. As it seems, the programm will only the file from the Data-folder. It's on my personal bug list I will send to MM.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tomgs:
Mephisto do you edit the default construction vehicles.txt file in the AI folder to do that? I wonder because the default strategies.txt in the AI folder used the correct settings for troop transports but it wasn't being used. The one in the data directory was used instead and it had an incorrect secondary strategy.
[This message has been edited by Tomgs (edited 23 December 2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Re: AI is BETTER??
 

Gotta keep an eye on the EEEE in my cvurrent agme...they wiped out one of my trade partners and are now slaughtering the other two.....one of their fleets is 23 dreadnaughts and carriers....

man..where oh where do they get the resources... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/tongue.gif

Re: AI is BETTER??
 

You can tweak the AI into building more colonizers, that's a good way to spread them somewhat (at the cost of some defense...).
Biggest hit to the AI in late games is that they NEVER use planet utilization (they just don't research it). I configured the EA to use planet utilization and they can keep up quite good in later games.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tomgs:
The AI definitely puts up a bigger fight especially in the early game if you give it a bonus. I am trying to tweak the AI to expand a bit more and keep up a bit better for the middle and end game. They don't seem to take over other AI worlds often and so after I demolish 2 or 3 empires I usually have a substansial lead. I don't know if there is anything that can prevent that except by artificially limiting what I do but I will try a few things and see. There is a setting that says that the AI only guards 3 systems I will try to increase that number first and see if it expands a bit more. If that dosen't help I will try to change a few ship designs and see if I can get some empires to send some time taking over planets with troops. Is there a setting somewhere that tells them to build more troops?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Re: AI is BETTER??
 

Wow I managed to get 6 or 7 hours to play this weekend and you guys are right.. the AI must have had bad luck in my first 1.19 game.. this time I gave it a large world, hard AI and med advantage and I got wasted before turn 100!! Started pretty good but soon run into two races and soon war broke out and on one border my entire fleet was destroyed by an AI battlegroup of 12 LCs armed with level 5 beams and POINTDEFENSE!! most of my ship swere missile boats (yeah I still tried to do my missile dance as soon as I realized the AI fleet is much bigger than mine), none of my missiles could get through their screen of defense. So I decided to build a couple of colonizers, load up my transports with population and escorted by what's left of my fleet... it was so cool it was like playing homeworld on a strategic level http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif. then.. I put em all in one group and started the run.. as soon as I entered a new warp point boom.. a minefield!! half the ship got blown up the rest crippled... the AI fleet caught up with me and that's it.

now that was FUN!!

my only regret now is that i haven't seen any fighter vs fighter combat.. I did run into a planet defended by 20 fighters but never saw them in carrier based operations.

Re: AI is BETTER??
 

The AI IS much better...

My first game with v.1,19 was in a large galaxy, No warp points, High thech level and low AI bonus.
I was having a peaceful game until I SHOWED the AI how to open warp points, this is what happened, I build a warp point opener and I opened warp points until I met with the Jnaeren(or something like that) then, the next turn, I had every empire using warp point openers, and there was a Gigantic War.
Fleets of up to 20+ Dreadnoughts, Heavy Carriers, etc, etc...

When the war was finnaly calming down there where at least 3 empires anihilated by two races, the Sergetti and the Eee.

Well I was OK, I closed all the warp points that led to my systems, and I am now in the proces of building my Mega Fleet.

BTW, this was just a test game... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Re: AI is BETTER??
 

Maps without warp points is the only way to play imo. Much more challenging against the AI as you never know where they'll open a hole. If you haven't tried no warp points yet I highly recommend it.

-m

Re: AI is BETTER??
 

I'm still trying to win my game; the Ukra-Tal finally decided to make a treaty with me (perhaps the fact that I proposed a trade (which they accepted) and was nice about not glassing their worlds, and was at war with their enemy (the stinking Terrans) helped...). Anyway, we're now at Partnership (their doing, not mine; they refused all of my requests, probably because I was in 10th (!) place out of 10 real empires - the five "neutrals" are still in 11th-15th place). And we're both wreaking havoc on the stinking Terrans. Who are making me understand just how powerful the CSM V's are, even when I have decent PD support (planets are launching up to 12 missiles at a time - and I'm still only up to frigate-class ships!!!). Fortunately, the Ukra-Tal and I have managed to push the Terrans to 10th place, and I'm now number 9. I got really ticked when they glassed one of my homeworlds (it took them YEARS to get around to it, but they kept at it, and I could never get enough defenses on it, because every time I put enough defenses there to destroy a ship, they IMMEDIATELY came back with a bigger fleet, and then they mined the entrances so I couldn't even get ship support in there, oh it was a mess...)

Long live the Moebius Consortium (I hope)!

Re: AI is BETTER??
 

Yes, the AI puts much more of a fight. Especially with Mephisto's mod, it will frequently beat you.
However, I am still not convinced that it is significantly better. There are some improvements in the area of minesweeping and missile dodging, but I have the impression that most of the better challenge is just due to the fact that the AI attacks you earlier and more frequently. The AI strategy and tactics are still not a good as they should be. In my latest game, the EEE were still sending in their dreadnaughts one at a time, while massing them into a fleet would have finished me.
Better use of fleets, better target identification and a more consequent follow up on attacks, these are the things on my wishlist for the next patch. All of them seem to be implementable to me. If they are combined with the increased aggressiveness, the AI would actually become an opponent to be respected.

Re: AI is BETTER??
 

Well Jowe, you ain't playin' the EEE that I am their main Fleet is 23 Dreadnaughts and the only reasons I haven't faced it bcause they keep glassing one of my "allies" worlds with it....

My turn is coming, unless their small 13 ship fleet decides to quit picking its nose...

Re: AI is BETTER??
 

In my game right now, the AI put up a decent fight early (pre-100 turns), but now I'm up to 2.6M vs their 2nd place player at 400K in score. No challenge now, just moping up.

I have seen the AI use better fleets than 1.11 though. The Amon-Krie continually hit my lines with between 7-11 light cruisers in one fleet. Of course in the between the good fleet attacks, they attack with 1 cruiser at the same warppoint with 3 seperate cruisers in 1 turn. The Eee are the same, poke here with 2 dreadnaughts, here with a singe DN. The EA does fill up their carriers (YEAH!!) finally. (Thanks Mephisto!)

The EA did hit me with 3 CVL's and 3 CG's one turn. Total of 240 fighters. Very interesting battle.

All in all, I would say the AI is definately better, but not finished yet.

Cryptotec88

Re: AI is BETTER??
 

Does AI consider how their opponents equip their ships? For example, if the enemy never uses missiles, AI stop equiping point defense, and the like.

It could help to carry a few constructor ships in the fleet and after the first battle, quickly retrofiting the ships to adjust for the enemy.

Re: AI is BETTER??
 

imperishable:

No, the AI does not 'react' to enemy ship designs at all. It has a set of guidelines within which to design its ships and this is preset with no ability to be altered during a game.

I'm not sure that it would be possible (or desirable) to have it react to the way enemy ships are built. In some ways it would help, but it would only lead to people doing the 'bait and switch' game with the AI IMO.

Talenn