Things I don\'t like in Space Empires 4
 

I've been playing Space Empires 3 since 1997. Since then, I haven't tried any game that gives me as much satisfation. I can't wait for the official release of Space Empires 4. I've been playing the demo for weeks now and I love it. But there are some details that still bother me. Here's what I don't like (don't find realistic) in Space Empires 4 for now:


- Droping Troops: It's quite annoying not to be able to drop troops simultanously when you have more than one troop transport ship. My troops get annihilated by the planetary militias one wave after the other, even if they're supposed to be better equiped for attack and defense.

- Planet Construction: Planets with low populations, shouldn't be able to build as many infrastructures as they are doing now. There should be a limit on what a given number of colonist can build. For instance, any planets with less than 100M of population, shouldn't be able to build anything but a Space Port or a Ressuply Depot. Even if the queued items take longer to build on planet with low population, I think they don't take long enough to do so.

- Population Transports: It doesn't seem logic to me that nearly all (478M or more depending on the design) population of a small planet can be held and moved in a single medium population transport ship. There should be a limit on how many civilians can be moved/supported by one single ship.

- Renaming Solar Systems: You should be able to rename solar systems as you wish once you started a game.


That's pretty much it for now.

Re: Things I don\'t like in Space Empires 4
 

Yep yep yep AND

What happened to the SE III feature of assigning mulltiple planets to build the same ship???

SE III handled scrapping facilities a lot easier..


Why isn't there a global scrap feature for either obsolete ships or obsolete planetary facilities like Research centers when the tech tree is complete???

Why Have seperate satelite and fighter launch bays that are actually interchangable,, ie,, satalite launch bays are now able to launch and recover fighters and fighter bays are able to launch and recover satelites??



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Wingte

Re: Things I don\'t like in Space Empires 4
 

to replicant:
The troop problem seems to be one of the most important design failures of SE4. Not only the dropping of troops is not well thought out, the whole complex of ground combat is somewhat designed careless. I hope that MM will soon release a patch which adresses this problem.

planet construction & renaming systems: I agree fully

Population transports: this is IMO not a big problem. The limit is only the amount of cargo space you ship has. If you dont want to transport so many people with one ship, use escorts http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif for population transport.
A second solution could be to edit the cargo component.
Or imagine that 1 transport is in (your) reality a whole squadron of large cargo vessels, which is represented by one icon.

to wingte:
interchangeable bays are surely a bug. Should be fixed in the final release I think.

Re: Things I don\'t like in Space Empires 4
 

Don't forget the actual ground combat itself which appears to be the same as SEIII - everyone lining up in one neat box for a simple elimination calculation.

Given the ability to design troops now it is a pity that the tactical space combat section could not have been modified for ground combat too. Just have different tiles for planet surfaces, perhaps an orbital bombardment option from orbiting starships and perhaps terrain mods to combat.

Of course, this would be so much more interesting if other games could be tied in to handle some of these areas. Imagine having the option of using Total Annihilation to handle the ground combat and Homeworld for the tactical space action? Droooooooool!

Re: Things I don\'t like in Space Empires 4
 

Another one is the auto-save feature. I would like to be able to specify how many of those save games are created. Five would be a nice number if a set number is the only way.

Also the Launch/Recover list shouldn't have ships in it that cannot launch or recover fighters or satalites.

In SE III I could select several ships in a group and give them the same orders without having to creat a "fleet" first.

Along with this,, when I look at the "ships" list I should see only ships that are not part of a "fleet".

Ships that are under Minister control should be flaged in the ships list also. The colony ships and population transports do display their orders when their ministers send them somewhere,, but,, "attack" ships under the control of the "Explore Minister" don't display thier orders. Even better,, there should be a seperate class of ships specifically for exploration so I don't have to track down every new attack ship and stop it from running off exploring.


It was suggested that an Escort or some othe ship size could be used as a population tranporter.. I haven't tried it yet ,, but I would almost be willing to bet money it won't work..
I was lead to believe that the ministers keyed on the "ship type" that was selected. This seems to be true for Colony ships since I seem to be able to use any ship size that is large enough to put a colony module in and I must select the correct "type" to match the pod in order for the Colonization Minister to work correctly. And any ship designated as "attack" will take off and explore.. BUT,,, If I select either Transport size and even if I creat a NEW type,, IE Platform or Satalite or Fighter Tranport ,, if the population minister is on,, my Special Transporter will take off and load population. This implies that the Pop Min is keying on the ship size instead of the ship type.

Does the Troop Transport work properly under minister control??

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Wingte

Re: Things I don\'t like in Space Empires 4
 

Btw, there is an "Upgrade Facilitites" option in the construction queues main window (F7), and in a given planet's constr.Q...
Using the later will prove tiresome, but the global setting will try to upgrade ALL of the facilities at once (real expensive...)

On the other hand, I don't think that auto-upgrading ships would be a good idea, since it costs so much to do so, and your ship needs to be at a spaceyard to do so (not a problem with "Engineer class" cruisers ;-)
Then, auto-upgrading really is difficult to decide wich ship to upgrade to, since there are most certainly more than one available model for each ship size...
(What would be needed is a way to retrofit a fleet, all the ships of a certain size regardless of their different model, and to be able to SEE THE CLASS in the scrap-retrofit-mothball window...

Aside from that, everything is looking good (altough Master computers III are expensive, ouch! )

Re: Things I don\'t like in Space Empires 4
 

A 'ship class tree' might be an intriguing way to go (for a future installment; it's almost certainly too much to add at this point. I'd be happy to see it someday, 'tho.).

Essentially, one should be able to construct a directed acyclic graph (DAG) out of the various classes. The DAG may have branches where one class was upgraded into two different Versions (one earlier, one later but still not 50% more expensive -- or whatever limit is set in the .txt), both of which may be upgradable to the same. Alternately, if we have

in the case that A came first, some were refitted to B, then a design C was created that was barely cheap enough to be upgraded from A, but obsoletes both A and B -- and then D obsoletes C. However, ships of type A or B just returning from extended tours of duty (actually, that's rather limited by supply... as long as ships keep running in trouble faster than the _Enterprise_ =); but if there were ship morale, long tours between returns to port would surely affect it) have too high a price differential, so they'd have to be upgraded via A->B-D. The computer could easily calculate the upgrade cost (resources and time -- well, the latter needs to factor in repair time. Hm. Measure in damaged components.) per edge of the graph, and compute the 'best' upgrade path given either priority. Then, having a setting like 'Automatically upgrade idle ships using up to NN% of net income', or 'Automatically upgrade idle ships N or more generations behind' becomes possible, because it can figure out how to upgrade without fear of turning your missile boats into beamers, or so forth, unless you so choose -- because it can ignore disconnected ship class hierarchies (like E->F).

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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

Re: Things I don\'t like in Space Empires 4
 

[quote]Originally posted by Paladin:
[b]Btw, there is an "Upgrade Facilitites" option in the construction queues main window (F7

This button doesnt work to purchace the planetary upgrade facilities like the Atmosphere changer. Also when these upgrade facilitys have done their job,, you have to goto the planet and then click a seperate scrap facilitise button then find the facility and ... well it is tenious....

Not as tediuos as that ship list though...




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Wingte

Re: Things I don\'t like in Space Empires 4
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark Pavlou:
Don't forget the actual ground combat itself which appears to be the same as SEIII - everyone lining up in one neat box for a simple elimination calculation.

Given the ability to design troops now it is a pity that the tactical space combat section could not have been modified for ground combat too.
Of course, this would be so much more interesting if other games could be tied in to handle some of these areas. Droooooooool!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have limited exp. using in ground combat in SE4 but the ship/troop design elements of SE4 are one of the things I like about it best. I do think it would be nice though if ground combat was handled in a similar way as space combat - perhaps with limited radmom generated land maps, and number of actual units consolidated i.e. each chasis stands for more then 1 actual unit.

Now the idea of other games being used to handle different aspects of combat is sweet. If I am not mistaken the old Breech games tied in with another game to handle ground/space combat in a similar manner. Now if we could get Shrapnel to tie SE4 and AOA:WDK2K together into one HUGE game that would be something. I realize the work that would involve but think (I know someone from Shrapnel is reading this) you could sell two games to a lot of people, I already own the one and pre-ordered the other. Now that would make for some really sweet and interesting Online play think of the possibilities...

My .02 of rambling for the night.

Jim

Re: Things I don\'t like in Space Empires 4
 

I remember having both Rules of Engagement and Breach II - the pair that "fit together" to handle ship-to-ship and boarding actions with the two seperate programs. It was awesome in the extreme! I think the only reason I stopped playing was because my Amiga died and I finally went PC so I could bring work home. Couldn't find copies of the games for that platform by that point . . . :-(

If it were left in my little monkey paws, I'd come up with a data packet protocol that'd allow stats such as boarding party info, ship layout and so forth to be handed about between applications. That way, 3rd party developers could come up with various add-ons (the boarding module, the ground combat module, the super-fancy 3D space combat with retreat option module . . . ) that could be added or subtracted from the line-up as desired.

SEIV Plug-Ins, IOW. :-)

A note on the interchangable launch facilities - I agree (for whatever that's worth) that it is probably just a bug. I picture the facility as specialized launch and recovery faciities that can handle just their specific type of "cargo". I think an interesting addition, however, would be a generic Hanger component. At the cost of increased size and cost, to handle the larger multi-purpose facilities and tenders, it could launch anything from mines to fighters.

Oh, and I'm also a proponent of being able to change star (system) names. I'm tired of setting up shop in the Devonshire star system. I thought Devonshire was in England, not out beyond the Crab Nebula.

Re: Things I don\'t like in Space Empires 4
 

Found a new one I don't like.. When I put a space yard ship into a fleet.. I lose tha ability to access it's construction que and it appears to stop building and will only do repairs.

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Wingte

Re: Things I don\'t like in Space Empires 4
 

Wingte: are you using a Space Yard component, or the Repair Bay?
I'm using ships with Space Yard component, and have not problems...

My complaint with the Space Yard, it's that the Space Yard component have a great size, and also, I don't like the limit of only ONE Space Yard per Ship/Base...
In SE4 I can not build a lot of ships at the same time, like I did in SE3: now is very costly to create 10 Space Stations with one Space Yard each one...

Re: Things I don\'t like in Space Empires 4
 

Every time MM does another SE the ship yards get worse and worse.

I loved SE2's build method.

Re: Things I don\'t like in Space Empires 4
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Wingte: are you using a Space Yard component, or the Repair Bay?
I'm using ships with Space Yard component, and have not problems...

I am sure that I am using the Shipyard. It is 400kts and barely fits in a cruiser.. I have determined that it will complete a build project that was started befor I added it to a fleet. But when it gose into the fleet, I can't add anything to the build que.


My complaint with the Space Yard, it's that the Space Yard component have a great size, and also, I don't like the limit of only ONE Space Yard per Ship/Base...
In SE4 I can not build a lot of ships at the same time, like I did in SE3: now is very costly to create 10 Space Stations with one Space Yard each one...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

YEP!!!!! That was what prompted me to start looking at the Vehical Size File since that is where the other limits are set.



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Wingte

Re: Things I don\'t like in Space Empires 4
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Master Belisarius:

In SE4 I can not build a lot of ships at the same time, like I did in SE3: now is very costly to create 10 Space Stations with one Space Yard each one...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately SE4 can't support the SE3 method of ship construction queues (which was superior), however, it one can revert to the SE2 method, but I find that to be high on the cheese meter. Building 10 dreadnoughts in 1 turn isn't realistic, but building 10 of them at once and taking forever makes sense. In the Starfire gaming material there are space stations with 50+ space yards, each building a separate ship, and there is no way I can recreate that in SE4. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Things I don\'t like in Space Empires 4
 

I hope that MM will some day get back to the good old space yards as in SE3.
I loved the space yards, I loved to move the ships to build around and making plans what would be better, repair this ship or that and don't build this because of the repairs or build the new one and repair later...
You got the point. Well, this is now missing, very much to my regret and I don't see why this was done. At least bring back the repair queues, I want to choose which ship is repaired first. Please!

And for the rest... good job, MM!

Re: Things I don\'t like in Space Empires 4
 

Wingte: I think that you have a bug in your hands! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Report it to MM.

Mephisto and Noble: I must concur with you 100%.
The old SE3 shipyard queue was much better than SE4. Really I would like to know, why MM have changed it... Was one of the better SE3 features!
Also, I don't know anybody, who believe that the SE4 shipyard system is better than the SE3 shipyard system!

Re: Things I don\'t like in Space Empires 4
 

Wingte: I think that you have a bug in your hands! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Report it to MM.

Mephisto and Noble: I must concur with you 100%.
The old SE3 shipyard queue was much better than SE4. Really I would like to know, why MM have changed it... Was one of the better SE3 features!
Also, I don't know anybody, who believe that the SE4 shipyard system is better than the SE3 shipyard system!

Re: Things I don\'t like in Space Empires 4
 

Master Bellisarius.

I liked the old system also more than the new.
But I understand the design reason behind the new system:
-component hit points
in SE3 every component had 1 HP. And 1 Space yard could construct/repair a certain amount of components per turn.

In SE4 components have different amounts of hippoints. To let a space yard construct 1 component per turn would mean in SE4 that you could construct a 1000 HP superarmor component in the same time as a level one cargo container with 5 HP.

You know what I mean?
So MM decides to develope an alternative in constructing ships.

Personally my credo is: Dont fix a unbroken system. So I think that it was a failure to change the construction system.

But who I am to critisize the MM gods?
klaus

Re: Things I don\'t like in Space Empires 4
 

Re: the space yard in a fleet. I can still access the build que from the ships list but I cannot access it from the tool bar on above the main screen. I can't decide if this is a bugg of a natural result of the way "fleets" are managed on the main screen.

RE: Space/Ship yards in general. There is absolutly no reason to not be able to build multiple sship yards on one planet.. This concept has been the mainstay of ship building since the dawn of shipbuilding. Take a place (planet) that is useless for almost anything else and build a huge industrial complex.

With regared to the Super Space Yards from SE III. There were some bugs with those. Hehe I found it pretty funny that I could put one of them at a warp point and build colony ships that would take off and colonize planets with a full load of colonists. I do still think I should be able to build these super yards,, but they should be required to be orbiting a planet or asteroid so raw material is available to do more than repairs. I was in the US Navy and I served on a repair ship. We could repair 7-8 ships at the same time. And some of those repairs could be accomplished while underway. IN SE III I could put a repair ship in the fleet and it would do repairs on multiple ships while the fleet was transiting to a new location. I don't seem to be able to do this at all in SE VI. The game specifically says "no building while moving" but I should still be able to do repairs while moving. True the fleet cannot move while any ship in it is damaged in such a way that it cannot move and to revisit an old suggestion, I should be able to tow other ships. Ok ,, force me to have to put a tractor/repulsor unit on at least one ship or build a specialized tow ship to do it, but let me be able to tow..



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Wingte

Re: Things I don\'t like in Space Empires 4
 

Actually, I think repair bays in SE4 _do_ work even if you move. All other points are quite valid though.

Re: Things I don\'t like in Space Empires 4
 

Klauss: but I'm not talking about that the space shipyards, must build a determined number of components per turn.
I have not problems if with the current system, you could build a lot of small components one turn, and only a few the next, if it's a biggest component.

I'm talking about:
1) The limit to one shipyard per ship/base. 2) I can not see my ships under construction in the map, and check what components are ready, and what not (currently, if the ship is not finished, simply not exist).
3) If I clean the shipyard queue, everything is lost.
4) In the old times, when I did click over a planet with 10 shipyards, I had the chance to see all the queue ships at once. Now, it's very hard to check what thing is building in what place.

The current builiding queue, looks more like the MOO2 building queue, and really always I believed that it was one of the advantages of SE3 over Moo2.

Re: Things I don\'t like in Space Empires 4
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Noble713:
Actually, I think repair bays in SE4 _do_ work even if you move. All other points are quite valid though.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The "Repair Bays" do work when moving. I don't think the "ship yards" will even repair while moving..



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Wingte

Re: Things I don\'t like in Space Empires 4
 

You CAN decide what to repair and it what order in SE4. Simply click "Reorder Queue" and move stuff around!

Re: Things I don\'t like in Space Empires 4
 

I keep the auto repair minister turned on. That should follow the repair order list automatically.

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Wingte

Re: Things I don\'t like in Space Empires 4
 

Master Bellisarius!
sorry I misunderstood you. All the points you posted are valid IMO.

klaus