Ground Combat
 

Sorry - Long

Now that that gold code is out (for demo purposes at least!), I am sure the design team (after a vacation) will start making a list of bugs to fix bugs, play balancing items and perhaps a few enhancements in the form of a patch. After surfing the various SE4 Boards, it appears that there is quite a bit of support out there in favor of enhancing ground combat (if feasable from a programming perspective). The following is an ideal I had posted awhile ago which might accomplish this while minimizing the amount of additional programming required.

- Use the current space combat grid/module for ground combat

- Terrain/background could be automatically generated based on type of planet (nothing fancy, just valid/invalid squares for terrain blocking, slower movement, etc.)

- Attacking player would choose what transports in fleet would deposit their troops/platforms to planet (similar to cargo transfer screen)

- Combat would proceed similar to space combat with ranges/to hits/moves all similar to space combat (this would open up a whole new set of components for troop propulsion, etc.) This would also allow longer range weapons to act as artillery, fast moving units as armor, etc. BUT would only require (I think) modifying the data files

- Of course the ground combat could become much more complicated with components to allow space bombardment from orbiting capital ships/fighters every XX turns (ala IG2), etc.

- This entire "combat subroutine" could be an alternative to the current one (so in the end game they could be quickly resolved) or their could be an option for "strategic resolution" similar to space combat

- In order to fit it into the current space combat model, all combat would have to be resolved in one turn

I think overall the expansion of ground combat would add a whole new dimension of strategy that IG2 tried to accomplish and MOO2 never did right. Using the existing space combat system and unit design/component data setup the amount of additional program would be minimized. *** If this is not feasible to due to time constraints of the program/design team - if there is enough interest perhaps MM would let a select group of interested people design the mod (including components, basic framework, play balance unit data, etc.) and then the program team could concentrate on implementing the additional "plug-in" of the ground combat based on the space combat engine. Support anyone?

Thanks,
Tampa_Gamer


[This message has been edited by Tampa_Gamer (edited 13 October 2000).]

Re: Ground Combat
 

Pretty lame when I reply to my own post - anyway, I had copied MM on the post and Aaron wrote the following:

"An excellent idea. If there is enough interest, we'd definitely add a
tactical ground combat option in.

Aaron"

So if you would like an OPTIONAL tactical combat option, respond to this post, post your own thoughts or e-mail MM.

Thanks
-Tampa_Gamer

Re: Ground Combat
 

Sounds like a plan to me!

I haven't gotten to ground combat in 0.99 yet (My transports were all set, but I forgot to check the planet for WPs first - oops! New AI! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif) but it was the only thing I wasn't really sold on with 0.56. It's not *bad* but I'd really prefer something less abstract!

It'd be a major selling point to me too, although I've already been sold in this case . . .

Re: Ground Combat
 

Yep, i want it to :-)

Re: Ground Combat
 

I would enjoy optional ground tactical combat.

Re: Ground Combat
 

At least some mechanised ground units with fighter/space support..

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Wingte

Re: Ground Combat
 

I think there is a lot of support for a better ground combat system. I just had an interesting discussion with Peter von Kleinsmith a beta tester of Shrapnel, about ground combat. He is also for a challenging ground combat system.

To your idea.
Generally is it good. But dont forget one thing which is really important.

Space ships has strategic movement points. Which each MP they are able to initiate one attack in one system square. For example a cruiser with 3 MPs left can initiate up to 3 tactical combats a 30 tactical turns. All in all 90 turns of tactical combat in only one strategic turn. If in this system ground combat occurs the ground units have to fight 30 turns each time the cruiser attacks.
This means that the number of ground combat depends soleley on the number of attacks space ships conduct at this system during one strategic turn.

This is silly, IMO. The number of ground combat turns should not depend on the number of attacks/MPs an attacking ship has left.

Maybe you can develope a system which solves this problem.

My solution would be to split the movementphase into seperate movement and combat phases. (space and ground)
But this is a really heavy change in the game code.

Another solution would be (P.v. Kleinsmids) to make a subphase a 30 tactical turns (inserted after the movementphase) in which ground combat is conducted.

klaus

Re: Ground Combat
 

I, too, would like to see a more detailed/less abstract ground combat system incorporated (or at least optionally added) to make a great 4X game even better.

I also don't like the fact that multiple transports cannot land troops simultaneously. To me this just doesn't seem right.

Re: Ground Combat
 

It is being worked on as we speak


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Seawolf on the prowl

Re: Ground Combat
 

[0.99]

Interesting. If troops on both sides survive all 10 rounds of GC, it seems that the troops remain. Makes one wonder whether you can then pull over more transports and reinforce your beachhead.


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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

Re: Ground Combat
 

Seawolf - are you permitted to expand on that?

Re: Ground Combat
 

I wholeheartedly agree with Tampa_Gamers suggestions. I would also like to add the following ideas/expansions:

Ground combat to be held after all space combats have been completed.

OPTION: Allow attacker to use orbital fire from ships over planet to reduce defender numbers.

Defender should set up unit positions first (home ground advantage) - attacker should select "drop points" (perhaps one for each troop ship) around which his/her units would be randomly distributed (simulating the confusion and disruption of an atmospheric landing - this could be alleviated with appropriate tech).

OPTION: When generating terrain, vary this according to planetary conditions. Add appropriate bonuses to combat (eg. mountains could give bonuses to hit, forests bonuses to defense).

OPTION: When generating terrain, include squares to represent all planetary factilities which could then be targeted by ground units. This would allow an attacker to try destroying key buildings (if hopelessly outnumbered by defending militia for instance) or the defender to implement a scorched earth policy (Bah! So what if I lose the planet! You're *not* getting all my nice Shrines!)

In a previous discussion on this, someone did suggest having a tie-in with WDK 2K - using this to run Ground Combats. I would like to see such a tie-in but, given the work needed, would prefer to see in-house stuff done first.

Re: Ground Combat
 

Whoa Mark!


You are creating another totally seperate game there! Whay tou are proposing is a little beyond the scope of the game currently.

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Seawolf on the prowl

Re: Ground Combat
 

It would be fun, but is hard ( if not impossible ) to do in a simultaneous game. It can be done in a PBEM, but can also bog down the turns. For single play, it should be possible, but would take a lot of recoding and that would delay publishing the game. Maybe they will look at it for future patches or Versions.

Re: Ground Combat
 

People - the issue is not to debate how hard x, y or z would be to code (thats for Aaron and the design team to decide) - the issue is Do people want it? As I posted below the response from Aaron on this idea was:

"An excellent idea. If there is enough interest, we'd definitely add a
tactical ground combat option in.

Aaron"

It seems so far on this board and few others that everyone is interested in having the tactical option but people are concerned about the programming difficulty.

My 2 Cents - Thanks

Re: Ground Combat
 

I have a question about the ground combat engine that's currently in the game. Are ground cannons the only weapons useable by ground troops, or can they use any small weapon? I haven't gotten far enough in my game yet to test this out myself.

Re: Ground Combat
 

You can use any small weapon.

Re: Ground Combat
 

Tactical ground combat would be nice. However I'd rather see an improvement to Strategic combat first. Improve the eye candy for strategic combat. Seeing a bunch of colored pixels flashing around on the screen for a couple of seconds is very disappointing considering all the work that went into building ships and getting them to the battle. The enjoyment of PBEM play would be greatly enhanced by more detail during strategic combat resolution.

Elmo

[This message has been edited by Elmo (edited 26 October 2000).]

Re: Ground Combat
 

I strongly welcome a more detailed ground combat system, even a simple reply of space ship combat with the only change of the units involved.
Howewer I would be much more iterested in a system that would add more tactical and strategic options.I agree with all the suggestions from Tampa-gamer, I only suggest the following changes:
-allow fighters to directly join ground combat.
-treat support from space ships like "off-board artillery".This fire would eventually strike squares on tactical ground map, not individual enemy units, and I would introduce even a drifting possibility to simulate targetting difficulty on planet surface.
There is some minor drawback in this system:
1) In a ground combat may be involved hundreds of units.
2) What happen if after a complete 30 turns combat neither side have completely annihilated the other ?
Concerning the options suggested by Mark Pavlou I agree that ground combat have to be held after space combat and with the suggested placements of units.
I think that generating terrain with bonuses will add too much complexity and I prefer the simpler solution of Tampa-gamer.
The idea of planetary facilities involved in ground combat is very interesting but in the case of huge planet you simply can't place 25 facilities on the ground map.
If we want to allow this option I would suggest to divide the planetary surface in "key areas" (continents?), let say 8 for huge planet and only 1 for tiny planets, and allow to place a maximum of 3 or 4 facilities in each areas.After ground combat the original owner of the planet will only have the benefits of all undestroyed facilities in uncontested key areas.
In this manner we could even allow grounds combats Lasts for more than a space turn, with units of both sides on the same planet at the end of the ground combat step. The big drawback is that every planetary attack would be eventually divided in 1-8 separated grounds combats every turn.

Re: Ground Combat
 

I think it would be nice, but there are other things more pressing. Plus I rarely use troops.

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I AM Canadian.

Re: Ground Combat
 

Another suggestion to develop the idea of ground combat with "key areas" would be to allow the invading player to freely build in uncontested areas a "beachead facility".
In the area with this facility units can be repaired/refuelled/rearmed at the beginning of each ground combat phase.
The "beachead facility have a stockpile of supply a part of wich is consumed at each ground combat phase. Space ships in orbit around the planet can replenish this stockpile transferring supply.
For the planet original owner each undestroyed facility allow repair/refuel/rearm units with an unlimited stockpile of supply.
Units can freely move from area to area at the beginning of each ground combat phase but retains his damages until reparation.
In this manner the invading player must space support is invasion or his troops on the surface of the planet are doomed.

Re: Ground Combat
 

Just my 2 cents,

I make sure that transports can not come in close to land troops. But really I understand the want for a better ground combat game and for a single player game it would be fine but consider how much longer it would drag out a Multi player game. IMHO

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Seawolf on the prowl

Re: Ground Combat
 

I agree with Seawolf, I think in multiplayer games the only viable solution is strategic ground combat or a form of tactical ground combat which is a reply of space ship combat.
A complex system of ground combat would be only an option or, may be, the subject of a separated add-on which players can link to the game and freely turn-on or turn-out.