Depleted Uranium Cannons to powerful!
 

Am I the only one to notice with the 0.99 demo that DUC's are now so powerful as to render Meson BLasters and Anti Proton Beams practically useless? A DUC at max techlevel can dish out 40 points of damage while a Meson BLaster at max tech level can only deliver 30 points of damage but has one square longer range. Anti-Proton Beams at max tech level dish out 50 points of damage at point blank range and the same as the DUC at it's maximum range. The DUC is very cheap and fast to get to max tech level while Meson BLasters and Anti-Proton Beams are very expensive to get to max tech level. So why bother with them? Why not rush to DUC V and stick with that until you get Incinerator Beams or something? I think they need to be toned down. I also think the research cost for the Meson BLasters need to be lowered a little, but maybe that's just because I like them so much. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Depleted Uranium Cannons to powerful!
 

That was my initial thought too. However, if DUC level out at higher levels, but beamers continue to improve, then I would leave it as is. Players would then be forced to chose between a faster rising tech verses a slower, but ultimately more powerful technology

Re: Depleted Uranium Cannons to powerful!
 

Used to be that DUCs were useless, I never use them

Re: Depleted Uranium Cannons to powerful!
 

The main advantage of APBs vs DUCs in the 0.99 demo appears to be range at higher tech; by the time APB tech reaches 12 (Energy Stream Weapons), their range is 8, versus 5 for DUCs. But you have to take ESW up to 8 before you get a range of 6, even... 'level cost' for ESW is listed as 5000 (and you start with 0 normally, plus it requires Physics 1, 50000 cost), versus 2500 for Projectile (and you start at 1). DUCs even cost less supply per shot (2 vs 5 for DUC-V vs APB XII), but are more expensive components in terms of minerals at the same range (DUC V vs APB VI) it seems (300 vs 175).

Hrm. All this complexity is a balancer's nightmare, heh.

FWIW, I believe that the AIs seem to prefer APBs, so if you're looking for gaining research through espionage, scrapping stolen ships, or other hostile means, you might want to focus on Projectiles for a while and let the AIs bother with ESW.

------------------
-- The thing that goes bump in the night

Re: Depleted Uranium Cannons to powerful!
 

Yes, APB's are better then Duc's, but only after a huge research investment. Meson BLasters can hardly be argued to be better then DUC's as they have lower firepower and only outrange the DUC's by one.

Re: Depleted Uranium Cannons to powerful!
 

DU cannons do 40 damage at the top end, for 30 kt space. That is 1.333 damage per kiloton.

Meson bLasters do 30 damage at the top end, for 20 kt space. That is 1.5 damage per kiloton.

Conclusion: DUC weapons are less_ efficent than meson bLasters, with less range and less damage per kiloton.


[This message has been edited by Saben (edited 29 October 2000).]

Re: Depleted Uranium Cannons to powerful!
 

IMO Antimattertorps are weaker than those in SE3. In my personal Version of SE4 they will be a little bit stronger.

klaus

Re: Depleted Uranium Cannons to powerful!
 

Right now , in a multi player game, we have an AI race using anti-matter torpodoes against two human houses and completely trashing us. If these aren't powerful enough, I don't want to see the strong ones.

Re: Depleted Uranium Cannons to powerful!
 

Saben, Yes it's true that the MB is more efficient per kT basis than the DUC but keep in mind that the research investment for DUC V is very small compared to the research investment for MB VI. Instead of going for MB VI you could go for DUC V and use all that research not used to get MB VI to get High Energy Discharge Weapons or some other nasty wepon. So I still maintian my opinion that the DUC is too powerful considering it's low research cost.

[This message has been edited by Jubala (edited 29 October 2000).]

Re: Depleted Uranium Cannons to powerful!
 

Give me 24 hours to do a comprehensive analysis, and I will reply here with the results, either way. I will look at high energy, meson, anti-proton, and DUC weapons.

Re: Depleted Uranium Cannons to powerful!
 

How about the Phased-energy weapons? You can get them fairly easily while opponents are still using regular shields. They have a range of 6 at Phased Poleron Beam I and get stronger as you get closer for those of you that like close fighting. Ignoring regular shields makes these usefull against the AI that likes to get a lot of shield power. They do take some research but I like to get a lot of points in research so it goes fast for me. It only goes up to level 5 so its definately not a end game weapon.

Re: Depleted Uranium Cannons to powerful!
 

First off, let me say I found this exercise rewarding. Secondly, I did my best to make the numbers right, and double checked my results in a few random places when I was done. If you find a mathmatical error, post it so I can make corrections and see if it affects the conclusions.

(Edit: blah, I hate fonts. Table alignment is off. How I long for the good old days of fixed width. Men should be men, women should be women, and a character should be eight pixels wide. Universal truth, damnit.)

High-Energy Discharge Weapons
Requires:
Propulsion 7
Research Cost:
Required Feilds - 345,000
Level 01 - 20,000
Level 02 - 40,000
Level 03 - 90,000
Level 04 - 160,000 (505,000)
Level 05 - 250,000 - Incinerator appears
Level 06 - 360,000
Level 07 - 490,000 (835,000)
Level 08 - 640,000 - Wave Motion Gun appears
Level 09 - 810,000
Level 10 - 1,000,000
Total - 3,860,000 (4,205,000)
Weapon Data:
Ripper Beam IV:
20kt, 50 damage all ranges, range 3, rate 1.
damage/kt per round - 2.5
damage/kt per combat - 75
6,733.33 research cost per point for damage/kt per combat
Incinerator Beam III
50kt, 90 damage all ranges, range 6, rate 2.
damage/kt per round - 0.9
damage/kt per combat - 27
31,000 research cost per point for damage/kt per combat
Wave Motion Gun III
70 kt, 140 points all ranges, range 8, rate 3.
damage/kt per round - .667
damage/kt per combat - 20
210,250 research cost per point for damage/kt per combat


Energy Stream Weapons
Requires:
Physics 1
Research Cost:
Required Feilds - 50,000
Level 01 - 5,000
Level 02 - 10,000
Level 03 - 22,500
Level 04 - 40,000
Level 05 - 62,500
Level 06 - 90,000
Level 07 - 122,500
Level 08 - 160,000
Level 09 - 202,500
Level 10 - 250,000
Level 11 - 302,500
Level 12 - 360,000
Total - 1,627,500 (1,677,500)
Weapon Data:
Anti-Proton Beam XII:
30kt, 50 damage at 1 to 40 at range 5 to 35 at range 6 to 30 at 8, range 8, rate 1.
damage/kt per round at range 1 - 1.667
damage/kt per combat at range 1 - 50
33,550 research cost per point for damage/kt per combat at range 5
damage/kt per round at range 1 - 1.333
damage/kt per combat at range 1 - 40
41,937.5 research cost per point for damage/kt per combat at range 5
damage/kt per round at range 6 - 1.167
damage/kt per combat at range 6 - 35
47,928.571 research cost per point for damage/kt per combat at range 6
damage/kt per round at range 8 - 1.0
damage/kt per combat at range 8 - 30
55,916.667 research cost per point for damage/kt per combat at range 8

Energy Pulse Weapons
Requires:
Physics 1
Research Cost:
Required Feilds - 50,000
Level 1 - 10,000
Level 2 - 20,000
Level 3 - 45,000
Level 4 - 80,000
Level 5 - 125,000
Level 6 - 180,000
Total - 460,000 (510,000)
Weapon Data:
Meson BLaster VI:
20kt, 30 damage all ranges, range 6, rate 1.
damage/kt per round - 1.5
damage/kt per combat - 45
11,333.33 research cost per point for damage/kt per combat

Projectile Weapons
Requires:
None
Research Cost:
Required Feilds - None
Level 1 - Free
Level 2 - 5,000
Level 3 - 11,250
Level 4 - 20,000
Level 5 - 31,250
Total - 67,500
Weapon Data:
Depleted Uranium Cannon V:
30kt, 40 damage all ranges, range 5, rate 1.
damage/kt per round - 1.333
damage/kt per combat - 40
1,687.5 research cost per point for damage/kt per combat


Conclusions
-Depleted uranium cannons
--89% as effective damage-wise, and shoot 83% as far as meson bLasters, for 13.2% of the research.
-anti-proton beams
--In exchange for 33% more range, and 329% more research, you can do 67% of the damage per KT against a meson target
--If you are forced match range with the meson target, you can do 78% of the damage per KT for 329% more research.
--If you get to chose engagment range, you can do 11% more damage per kt to the meson ship, for 329% more research.
-Ripper Beams
--If you can close with the enemy, you can do 67% more damage for 99% of the research cost.
-Incinerator beans
--60% of the damage for 164% more research. Packs two turns worth of damage into first shot. Useless unless you can cripple or maim the enemy on the first round. And even then, frankly, you could have done nearly the same damage with the meson bLasters right up front. You do 20% more right away, but is it worth doing nothing at all the next round??
-Wave Motion Guns
--44% of the damage for 825% more research. Packs three turns worth of damage into the first shot. That means, instead of doing only 20% more right away like the incinerators, it does 32% more at two extra squares. And then you can't shoot for one turn. Hardly worth it.
--Compareing them to APB12 instead, which is also range 8. 66.7% of the damage for 251% more research. Getting better now, You'll deal three turns worth up front, doing twice the damage the APBs can do at the same range. This is looking like a more likely and worthwhile scenario. The ability to pack in two rounds of damage into the first shot could be decisive. Is it worth the trade off of being helpless for two turns?
-Final notes
--Welp, I learned from this. First off, I will always go down the DUC tree right off. The slight range problem is overwhelmingly offset by the tiny fraction of the cost. Looking at the ranges of some engine destroyers, I see that the best beam varient reaches as far as my loved meson bLasters. Getting to ripper beams will be slightly cheaper than meson, and I gain some nice engine tech along the route. Coupleing Ionic Dispersers to ripper beams is probably hands down the most efficient route I can take. Gives me the same "Range" of peging targets, and coupled with the natural engine superiority acheived for going that route, allows me practical dominion over the tactical battlefeild. I will be trying this next time I play against a human.


[This message has been edited by Saben (edited 30 October 2000).]

Re: Depleted Uranium Cannons to powerful!
 

Ok I did the calculations for the Phased energy weapons. They came out better than I had thought. They are the second best research to damage ratio to the DUC's and with its better range and special of ignoring normal shields they are a bit better for me. And as a bonus they are at range 6 at level 01 for a fast range advantage.

Phased Energy
Requires:
Physics level 02
Research costs:
Required fields - 150,000
Level 01 - 5000
Level 02 - 10000
Level 03 - 22500
Level 04 - 40000
Level 05 - 62500
Total 140,000 (290,000)

Phased Poloron Beam V - 30 KT Range 6 Rate 1
Damage at range 1 60, range 2-4 55, range 5-6 50
Damage/Kt at range 1 - 2.0
Damage/combat/Kt - 60
Research cost/damage/combat at range 1 - 4,833.3

Damage/kt at range 2-4 - 1.833
Damage/combat/Kt - 55
Research cost/damage/combat at range 2-4 - 5,272.8

Damage/Kt at Range 5-6 - 1.667
Damage/combat/kt - 50
Research cost/damage/combat at range5-6 - 5,800.1


[This message has been edited by Tomgs (edited 30 October 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Tomgs (edited 30 October 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Tomgs (edited 30 October 2000).]

Re: Depleted Uranium Cannons to powerful!
 

First let me say that I appreciate all of you for looking into these weapons so throughly. This forum is one of the best I have been a part of and I look forward to engaging any/all of you in a multi-player game. My questions/comments are:
What about CSM's and torps?
Have you looked into the smaller Versions for the weapons you listed?
When all is said and done, balanced weapon research will win over specialized weapon research, (at least human vs human).
I believe at least 1 other person noted this, you can always steal/capture tech higher than yours. So please specialize your research and 'share' with the rest of us. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Re: Depleted Uranium Cannons to powerful!
 

General Hawkwing:

A much more interesting question about missiles in general (all types) is how they are affected by point-defense weapons. A flat calculation of "damage per kt" or "point of research per damage per kt" is just not going to be useful with missiles due to their vulnerability to interception. Against an opponent with no PDC they could be devastating, but against an opponent with maxed-out PDC (and lots of them mounted in their ships) they could be totally useless. I'm not even sure what sort of 'formula' you can use to calculate their usefulness thanks to this complicating factor. I've just got a general 'rule of thumb' that 1 PDC seems to counter 2 missile components and try to have that ratio when attacking someone who has missiles. I'm very interested to hear what our "researchers" might come up with, though.

Re: Depleted Uranium Cannons to powerful!
 

Hrm. I think the fact that we're having this discussion is a DARN good sign. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

I wonder if it's possible to have a ship-design tournament (excluding race-specific techs). Might be interesting to see what ships people would design given a tech/resource budget.

------------------
-- The thing that goes bump in the night

Re: Depleted Uranium Cannons to powerful!
 

With regard to missles, it seems they are useful to force your opponent to research and deploy Point Defenses. However, they will probably do so anyway to take out Fighters. Large Mount Weapons are overkill for Fighters and Missles ignore fighters. I recently ran a simulation with one carrier with something like 3 point defense destroyers and a three organic beam destroyers (cannot remember which beam they had). They went up against a fleet of 8 Missle Light Cruisers (a design that the AI seemed to like in that game). My fleet ate the Missleships up for lunch, destroying missles quickly. The beam destroyers killed one or two cruisers until the fighter swarms closed in and took out the rest. Only one of my ships sustained damage. Of course the AI fleet was total one sided, with only Missles for weapons. My ships also had a movement value of 7, which I think is four squares in tactical combat. I was letting the AI fight the battle for both sides in Tactical (keept hitting end turn). If the AI had built beam light cruisers with point defenses, I would have been annihalated. I think the key to fighting missle ships is to have beams that can fire more than 3 squares (and fighters) so that your point defense have enough time to react to the incoming missles. I tend to think that 8 beam ships is better than 4 beam and 4 missle ships, providing the defender has Point Defense capability. Missles also make sense for Satelites, forcing the enemy to come in with enough Point Defenses to attack a planet.

[This message has been edited by Commander G (edited 30 October 2000).]

Re: Depleted Uranium Cannons to powerful!
 

This is all great stuff. Saben, that was a great idea to look at the damage/kt/round as a way to make direct comparisons between the weapons.

Some thoughts I'd like to add:

- This is all analysis based on the tech levels available in the demo. I'm assuming that some/all of these techs will have higher levels or more powerful replacements above them (like Wave Motion Gun replaces Incinerator Beams). Perhaps as you put more research in, past what's available in the demo, some of the less-useful weapon trees will blossom into some more desirable choices.

- What about emissive armor? I haven't seen much discussion about it, but I think the top-end absorbs any shots with 30 or less damage. I assume that means 30 or less from any single weapon. If so, the meson bLaster, which does 30 damage, may be completely ineffective against it. Perhaps at higher tech beyond the demo, the armor's absorption could go to 50, which would similarly negate DUCs and APBs and make the slow high damage weapons like the WMG, etc more appealing.

- Might the larger weapon-mount sizes change things a bit? I don't know the exact numbers, but for instance, I think the large mount doubles the damage, for 50% extra weight? And I think the heaviest mount quadruples damage for less than a quadruple weight (I think). Something like that could make the slower heavy-duty weapons more appealing. Anyone car to run the numbers?

- The big slow guns like the WMG and Hellfire also might be good when placed on stationary bases and satellites where you lack mobility to chase your target so you want to maximize your punch when you can get one in. For example, the AI attacked a lone starbase of mine, and danced its ships in and out of my range, so the slower fire rate wasn't as much of a problem, and the extra damage was a big benefit.



[This message has been edited by LintMan (edited 30 October 2000).]

Re: Depleted Uranium Cannons to powerful!
 

Emissive and crystalline armors are one reason to favor the slower but heavier guns, methinks. A WMG will cut right through Emissive, and hopefully your target lacks the Crystalline Armor to regen more than 280 pts of shield/hit (Large WMG III)...

If your targets use shield regenerators or organic armor, with per-turn regeneration, you may want to do a *large* hit in one turn rather than battle the regen over two or three. ISTR that the best shield regenerators in the demo give 25 pts/turn each -- that isn't much for their size when put in a ship, IIRC, but it COULD matter on a station with capacity to spare, and I suppose there may be better Versions in the full release.

Also, if you can do enough damage to knock down the shields AND armor quickly, you may be lucky enough to hit a critical component next -- take out a Master Computer or Bridge, for instance. In that max-tech aggressive/bloodthirsty game of mine, I'd sometimes paired up CAs, each with a pair of large WMG III's and a Talisman; not too many, if any at all, of the AI ship designs had more than 280 x 4 = 1120 in shields+armor, which meant that the pair firing on one ship would be able to damage components immediately. If the victim lost engines, that could be enough to ensure that it *never* got within range to counterattack...

------------------
-- The thing that goes bump in the night

Re: Depleted Uranium Cannons to powerful!
 

In my games, I usually go for Meson BLasters and AP Beams. Incin beams are good too. (However I also usually have crystal tech, those weapons rock!)
For me, researching MBs isnt too hard, I play a research heavy game.
In my opinion no ship can be considered the best.
Hey Ive got an idea
We can all design ships, post the designs and then have them compete, in a set of matches, under varying conditions (1v1, 1v1v1, 2v2, etc etc etc)
Im a beta tester so I could run the matches if you want

Re: Depleted Uranium Cannons to powerful!
 

I also have used similiar strategies with WMG... with the add on of using Time Distortion Burst weapons from the Temporal Mechanics tree to get rid of the shields. Love that quad damage to shields. With that I take out the shields and then destroy the armor and components with the WMG.

Also I have found that generally CSM are a much better deal early in the game than later on when everyone has had time to either develop PD or steal it from someone who has. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Re: Depleted Uranium Cannons to powerful!
 

Bye the way where do you get phased shield? That tech tree? level?

------------------
Seawolf on the prowl

Re: Depleted Uranium Cannons to powerful!
 

I love the numbers on those Polaron beams. As efficent at max range as the Anti-Proton is a point blank, with a close range efficency outpaceing everything else short of the ripper beam. And it ignores sheilds, forceing your enemy to persue the expensive level 6 plus sheild research. Not to mention how incredibly cheap it is to research, compared against the other offerings for post DUC weaponry.

I think I have a new favorite.

Re: Depleted Uranium Cannons to powerful!
 

Phased shields are the six level ( I believe ) of the shield tech tree.

Re: Depleted Uranium Cannons to powerful!
 

Going to go down the list here and reply to people.

Seawolf: Research level 2 physics, and then phased weapons will be available to you to research.

Cyrien: I mostly play without special tech, and am not near a computer with SE4 right now. I am fairly certain, however, that high end sheild depleters are more effective for the weight, with a longer range, than time weapons in the demo. I can look for sure later, and will post specifics.

Instar: It seems strange to mix abp and meson weapons, as well as incin. Do you rely on theft from the computers for the apb techs?

Taqwus: Emisive armor is worthless in the .99 demo. No test I've ever run has shown it working. Crystaline I haven't checked since the new demo, and organic is flat broken. With organic, if any ONE peice of armor survives, all the armor will regenerate, leaving the ship with 60 points unhealed damage. Start with 14 plates, destroy 13 of them. The Last peice will cause all the others to reform, and the ship will be listed as 60 out of whatever ungodly ammount.

LintMan: When I get the full Version, I will run more and better comparisons. Working on a computer program right now to extract all the data from components.txt and display these values. Will hopefully be a good tool for mod makers, so they are fully aware of relative balance.
As to emmisive armor, I stated above that it is completely broke, and absolutely worthless in the .99 demo.
Large mount weapons are a fixed alteration to the numbers, and so all weapons will retain their same relative place on the hierachy. A large poleron will still be more efficent than a large meson bLaster.
Agreed. Stations are probably the best use of some of these weapons. Also, putting WMG3 on satilities is a damn good way to block a warp point. As I noted in the results, WMG has the advantage of packing more than one turns worth of damage into the first shot, and there are going to be times when it is worth the loss of overall efficency.

Commander G: Your results might be off on account of the beam destroyers being organic. As I stated above, the armor is broken. If even one peice survives, all your armor will regenerate in one turn, leaving your ship at 60/whatever.

Taqwus: I agree fully.

Baron Munchausen: I agree and, time permiting, I would love to figgure out just how PDC works.

General Hawkwing: Torps are just direct fire weapons, can do the exact same calculations. Missiles are a whole new ball game. As to theft of research, if I played a human with a tendancy to board, you can bet your *** I'll start mounting self-destruct devices. In regards to smaller weapons, meson bLaster is the only one with a range of three, and of the remaining weapons the small DUC3 is the most efficent. it has a ratio of 5 damage per kiloton. More efficent by far than big guns, twice as efficent as the ripper beam.

Re: Depleted Uranium Cannons to powerful!
 

Let me save you some effort. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

In fact if your going for nothing but shield damaging then Large Shield Depleters are the way to go. They take up less space fire at the same rate and eat up the same supplies while doing more damage to shields and taking up less material to build. However they are not capable of damaging the ship itself only the shields. And I have on several occassions found that the difference between defeat and victory was the extra 60 damage that each of those guys pumped out.
Finally using the Temporal fits in with the personality of the race I normally play with. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Here are the actual numbers assuming Large Mount:

Temporal - 240 damage to shields - 60 to ship
Fire Rate - 1
45 kt

Depleter - 300 damage to shields - 0 to ship
Fire Rate - 1
30 kt


No damage reduction for range in either of them. Both have range of 7.

Re: Depleted Uranium Cannons to powerful!
 

Saben,
As you know, there are more ways to get tech than just boarding a ship. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Plus every defensive measure you put on a ship requires space and research points. The problem with specialization is that you limit your ability to surprise the enemy. A balanced task force will survive longer and gain in the long run.
I've seen this kind of "rush" idea in other games and there is always a way (usually many) to counter it. MM has built a balanced game, allowing for many play styles to work extremely well. But I think "history" will show a balanced research approach will over come a single weapon focus one.

Re: Depleted Uranium Cannons to powerful!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cyrien:
[In fact if your going for nothing but shield damaging then Large Shield Depleters are the way to go. They take up less space fire at the same rate and eat up the same supplies while doing more damage to shields and taking up less material to build. However they are not capable of damaging the ship itself only the shields. And I have on several occassions found that the difference between defeat and victory was the extra 60 damage that each of those guys pumped out.
Finally using the Temporal fits in with the personality of the race I normally play with. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Here are the actual numbers assuming Large Mount:

Temporal - 240 damage to shields - 60 to ship
Fire Rate - 1
45 kt

Depleter - 300 damage to shields - 0 to ship
Fire Rate - 1
30 kt


No damage reduction for range in either of them. Both have range of 7.[/b]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like the Temporal Trait as well, but I like the other weapon they get, the one that ignores shields and armor. It is a nice counter to Organic races. Races can avoid the Shield depleting type weapons by simply using Armor instead of Shields. At low levels, armor is actually lighter and cheaper than shields. I ran into early problems with the Temporal trait against human players becaue my research was going into all the preliminary stuff early on for that trait. I was severly set back trying to defend with poor weapons while researching my special trait ones. Unfortunately, when you meet a race, it shows you their advanced traits so the player knew I had Temporal. I had to make some fast tech trades with other players to hold him off.

Re: Depleted Uranium Cannons to powerful!
 

Yes I also use the Temporal Shifter though generally more as a specialized ship to take out enemies with large defenses in both shields and armor... especially armor though.

Re: Depleted Uranium Cannons to powerful!
 

General Hawkwing,
I have to disagree. Some weapons can be shown to be clearly superior, and nothing will change those numbers. Meson bLasters cost more, even includeing the extra level of physics, than poleron beams. There is flat no reason to bother with them, period.

Wave Motion Guns are so costly, that unless you have a massive research advantage (ie you were gonna win anyway), sombody who selected a different weapon to go for and placed the left over points into various defensive or production techs would hand you your own head on a platter.

Anti-Proton beams offer the same range advantage the WMG has, for lesser cost and higher efficency. I would consider them a viable research path for sombody with superior engines. On the other hand, sombody with superior engines could go for ripper beams instead. Then, they would have spent far far less (the prerequisites were researched anyway) for a weapon with much higher efficency. The range disadvantage won't matter if you are closeing in on your enemy at a rate of two.

As to defensive measures, frankly boarding is the cheapest way to steal a ship. The defense is available early on in the propulsion tree, and takes only 10 kt. If the enemy is psycic, you will be forced to pay the costs for a master computer. But, even then, you are only looking at about 100k research points. I'm positive it costs alot more than that to get efficive allegince subverters, but I don't have the numbers in front of me.

Other tech takeing measures involve intel ops, which frankly I have never had used against me effectivly. Perhaps my strategies will need adjustment after I play a few games against other humans asside from my local friends.

Lastly, I agree that balance is important. But in my mind that balance is between missile, beam, boarding, AMS, repair, carriers, troop transports, and special case ships. The effectiveness gain for bothering to research down more than one beam weapon tree is not worth the research expenditure.

Re: Depleted Uranium Cannons to powerful!
 

Saben,
I agree with your statement:

"Lastly, I agree that balance is important. But in my mind that balance is between missile, beam, boarding, AMS, repair, carriers, troop transports, and special case ships. The effectiveness gain for bothering to research down more than one beam weapon tree is not worth the research expenditure."

That was my point. I did not mean to infer that a player should research more than 1 beam style weapon.
Unless in the full game you would need to reach a certain level in two separate fields to open a new field. EX: MB level 4 and APB level 5 to get "Hull Fracturing Beam of Kluge" field. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Depleted Uranium Cannons to powerful!
 

I haven't seen the whole tech tree yet, but it's starting to look to me like there are definite winners and losers in the weapons tree, which is a shame, since all incentive to use the rest of the tree and have a broader tech range goes away.

Something that might fix that would be to add some new parameters to the weapons, making different ones better in certain situations. Perhaps this could be done by making the accuracy vary by weapon-type. Or if certain armors or shields did better against certain weapon types (or vice-versa). (ie: say the next level of shields above the Phased ones only took 50% damage from phased weapons, or say a new armor type that is immune or takes reduced damage from projectile weapons.)

That sort of stuff would make more of a rock-paper-scissors feel to the tech tree, where if the enemy spcializes too much, you could develop the counter-measure.