Small ships and mines
 

Do smaller ships get to use their extra defense bonus against mines? They should, being smaller,and it would give them a reason to still be built later in the game.

I don't like to see only bigger ships as time goes on. We need incentives to still build and use smaller ships. If the smaller ships are given some kind of advantages over larger ships,this will keep them usefull to have around.

Does anyone have any ideas other than being harder to hit by mines(if it's not so already), that can be added in a patch?

Re: Small ships and mines
 

Small ships should get a bonus flying through a minefield. But there should be another bonus/malus for density of the minefield. Like 1000 mines in one place and you will hit one no matter how small you are but 1 mine in one place and it's unlikely to hit it even for the largest ship.

Re: Small ships and mines
 

Another idea I have,is to make smaller ships more maneuverable than larger ships.
Larger ships will be harder to reverse direction. A large ship would have to move 1 square to the side to turn.

It's a thought,what do you guys think?

Re: Small ships and mines
 

Well, small ships do have a defense bonus in combat (chance to hit is lowered)

Re: Small ships and mines
 

Yes but bigger ships have room for ECM's and armor,and shields.

Smaller ships need something extra.

Re: Small ships and mines
 

I also think that there should be different sizes for cloaking devices. Small cloaking devices would be discovered first and can only cloak a small ship. Then larger ones would follow as you research the tree.

This will give small vessels more purpose later in the game.

Re: Small ships and mines
 

Plus,as it is now, a cloaking device is 40kt in size. Small ships don't have room for it. Being small should neccesitate a smaller cloaking device.

Re: Small ships and mines
 

Sounds like sizing in MOO2--which I imagine would require some major changes to the game engine. Or many ship size restricted components.
-MKC

Re: Small ships and mines
 

If you give the heavier weapon mounts (which are usually on CapShips "Combat to hit offence minus" modifiers and if you reduce combat sensors and ECM to 15/30/45, you get a very good balance between smaller "Piranha" ships which are able to challenge the larger Flying Fortresses.The mount modifiers would actually reflect the inertia of the heavy guns. The large ships would still be the choice when shelling fortified places like planets and bases, which themselves have "Combat to hit defence minus" modifiers.

I find these modification quite realistic as analogies to 20th century navies and I have therefore integrated them into my personal mod. It works very well.

Re: Small ships and mines
 

Smaller ships also have the advantage of being built quicker. I often build smaller ships for specialized functions in a fleet. Examples include: PD ship, minesweeper, shipcapture w/repair bay.

Re: Small ships and mines
 

Anyone got a good minesweeper design? I got a mine field to clear but as soon as I get in my ship goes boom! It clears some mines but I keep losing the ship. Any suggestions?

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Seawolf on the prowl

Re: Small ships and mines
 

Can you mix 2 General Groups in 1 component? That is, can you combind an armor group w/a minesweeper group? In the component file, it shows armor to be a Gen Grp of Armor and minesweeper as Gen Grp of Unit Launch. Can you add the Minesweeper Ability tyep to the Armor as a 2nd Ability type like the Organic/emmisive/Crystal armor has 2 Ability types?

My goal is to reduce the effectiveness and thus players reliance on Mines in the early/mid game. So I had a thought, make a armor component w/minesweeping capabilities. Don't know if it would work - not sure how the minesweeper works in game terms (does it automatically sweep for mines whenever you enter a minefield or do you have to use the sweep for mines button - logically it seems it wld have to start sweeping upon entering a minefield or it wld be destroyed b/f doing any sweeping)

Just a crazy Tues morning idea (woke up at 4:30 this morning w/this on my mind - gotta stop playin the game b/f I go to bed) - any feedback wld be apreciated.

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

Re: Small ships and mines
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhiteHojo:
Can you mix 2 General Groups in 1 component? That is, can you combind an armor group w/a minesweeper group? In the component file, it shows armor to be a Gen Grp of Armor and minesweeper as Gen Grp of Unit Launch. Can you add the Minesweeper Ability tyep to the Armor as a 2nd Ability type like the Organic/emmisive/Crystal armor has 2 Ability types? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

you cant put a component in more than one group, but you can give it as many abilities as you want. so yes, you can make something to do what you describe. but no, it cant go into 'both' Groups. you have to pick one, or create a new group.

Re: Small ships and mines
 

Ok just answered one of my questions, yes it is automatic to sweep for mines when you enter a minefield. Did a test, built a Frig Attack Ship w/a minesweeper component V on it, moved to a warp point w/5 enemy mines already there, warped through and auto sweeped the mines.

So my thought is this - if you could a) either modifiy the armor comp'nt to include some type of minesweeping ability (leave out the "real life problems and realistic arguments", I'm goin for game balance here) or maybe modify the shield comp'nts also since all races seem to use either armor or shields in their designs or b) somehow alter the design files of all races to include some form of minesweeper comp'nt in all designs, maybe a smaller Version of the minesweeper comp'nt?

I moved the attack Ship in my experiment thru a minefield w/more mines than it could sweep and after it swept it's limit it was destroyed.

Just more off the top of my head - create some new cmpt that will sweep for mines but make it smaller and more effective - tie the amount it can sweep and its size to the tech level of ship sizes (when disc cruiser sized hulls, cmpt is avail at 10kt and sweeps X amount, at Lt Cruiser make it say 15kt and sweeps X*2 amount, etc...)... thus the larger the hull size you research the more effective your minedefense is and thus the mine strat is less effective w/o it being totally useless. Obviously I have'nt thought this all the way through but I wanted to get some feedback anyway. (yes, I have a slow day at work)

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

Re: Small ships and mines
 

One reason why, versus people, I'd probably use smaller, more numerous, cheaper ships than I use against the AI (I tend to go in for few-but-expensive-and-powerful otherwise) -- the anti-ship intel ops only affect one ship at a time. The AI doesn't make good use of them (as noted to Malfador, I've *never* lost a ship to CI, or a planet to PPP for that matter, even on Hard, which is very strange considering that I've seen many other ops at least once).

You're in a lot, LOT bigger trouble if you're defending your border with just a handful of powerful ships per system, and some get subverted, than if the same number of smaller ships gets subverted from a horde.

But for more balancing -- ISTR that somebody reported that the engines-per-move setting was finally working. So you might want to try boosting this -- e.g. a DN, which currently can take 4 engines, now takes up to 16, but requires 4 (or maybe more!) engines per move; same top speed, but far more space required.

They should theoretically also require larger or more powerful shield generators (field needs to be larger), and heavier armor for the same effective degree of protection (again, much more surface area), but we may not be able to do that yet.


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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

Re: Small ships and mines
 

Found I forgot to finish my thought in that Last post...So my thought is this - if you could a) either modifiy the armor comp'nt to include some type of minesweeping ability (leave out the "real life problems and realistic arguments", I'm goin for game balance here) or maybe modify the shield comp'nts also since all races seem to use either armor or shields in their designs or b) somehow alter the design files of all races to include some form of minesweeper comp'nt in all designs, maybe a smaller Version of the minesweeper comp'nt wouldn't this lessen the impact of mines? Some may say just reduce the damage done but I've found that the amount of damage from mines is not cumulative on the ships, nor does the amount of damage done per mine appear to be the total of the damage of the warheads in each mine. Ex done in test - colony ship w/1 colony unit (200 dam res'tnce), 1 crew,bridge&life suprt @ 10dam per, 5 engines @ 20 dam res'tnce per & 2 armor at 40 dam rest'nce per enters minefield w/19 sm mines w/100kt warhead (2 per mine). Ship is damaged but not destroyed - every result is 1 col unit undamaged and 1 random unit left undamaged... so it appears that each warhead damage is calculated by itself and the damage done to a comp'nt does not carry over to the next warhead... doesn't make much sense but it's the only explanation that fits. So reducing the amount of damage each warhead does would render all mines worthless - which is not my goal - just to make em less effective and unbalanced.

sorry for the long Posts

Re: Small ships and mines
 

A short question - maybe classified as a Bug but not sure - If a Colony ship has all but 1 engine and it's colony unit destroyed by mines, how is it able to move in a tactical/Strat battle - bridge/lifesupport/crew quarters are gone - Who's Running the thing?

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

Re: Small ships and mines
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If a Colony ship has all but 1 engine and it's colony unit destroyed by mines, how is it able to move in a tactical/Strat battle - bridge/lifesupport/crew quarters are gone - Who's Running the thing?
[/b]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some pour wounded guys in emergency space suits!

Re: Small ships and mines
 

Emporer Zod -

Currently, cloaking (and stealth armor) is broken in that none of the AI races are cloaking their sats/ships/bases even if they have researched it and placed it on their hulls. I sent MM an e-mail regarding this, so hopefully this will be fixed soon.

[This message has been edited by Tampa_Gamer (edited 16 January 2001).]

Re: Small ships and mines
 

If you want to weaken mines given the existing system, give nearly every direct fire weapon in the game the ability to sweep one mine (like a minesweeper I component). I'd start the minesweeper series at sweeping 6 mines and up it by say 2 per level to 14 for a level V.

I'd probably not give mine sweeping to torpedo weapons or anything with a reload greater than one. Might even avoid putting it on DUC, or at least earlier DUC (I & II). It goes without saying that the alligence subverter would not get this ability.

This might help direct fire weapons vs seekers, especially earlier in the game. Not only that, but later, when you start using weapon mounts, you'll be getting your heavy mount PPB, but it will still only sweep one mine. Interesting tradeoff IMO.