Getting a fight out of the AI
 

From my experience in my games my ability to beat the living snot out of the AI's early in a small universe with max AI's at max diff. and bonus was mainly because I built alot of base space yards the first thing I did and then flooded the AI with smaller technically inferior ships so sheer numbers killed it.

So I thought, what will happen if I teach the AI to build alot of base space yards? Well, now I know and it aint pretty. I'm actually on the defense in my homesystem fighting just one AI. And it's kicking my ***. There is one system between my homesystem and the homesystem of the AI I'm fighting and I had two colonies in it and was actually pushing the pace in the AI's homesystem attacking it's homeworld and destroying it's base space yards. But I made a mistake and let a salvo from the weapon platforms land on my fleet which crippled alot of ships in range so I had to tuck tail and run with the remainder. They where hunted down and destroyed by a second AI fleet coming from another system and since then I've been on the defense. One of my colonies in the system between us killed several single destroyers and light cruisers with it's weapon platforms until the AI finally attacked with enough force to wipe it out.

The only thing that kept me afloat at all is the fact that I moved ship capture up one notch in military science so I had it available from start. If I hadn't been capturing the AI ships and analyzing them I would have been hopelessly behind in technology years ago and probably dead long since. It's now 2404.0 and the AI has pushed me into a defensive position in my homesystem. I hade a fleet of 12 ships of which 8 where fighting (the rest troop transports and repairships) annihilated just after they captured an AI planet. The AI glassed the planet of course. Just Last turn it actually attacked my homeworld with a fleet of 7 superior technology Light Cruisers and I expected that to be the end of me as all I had to defend the place with was 3 inferior Light Cruisers and 5 Weapon Platforms. My entire shipbuilding infrastructure of 5 base space yards was going down the drain just one year before they finished building the latest Light Cruisers in my arsenal with upgraded shields courtesy of the Sergetti Empire (the AI I'm fighting).

But due to AI stupidity in choosing it's targets I won with minor losses. All weapon platforms, about 500M people and 4 facilities (including the planetary space yard) are my complete losses. I held my 3 fighting shpis back close to planet so the planet and the ships could work together. The AI fired at the ships when the planet wasn't in range but as soon as the planet was in range it's just like the AI forgot anything else even existed. It shot only at the planet, even after the weapon platforms where gone leaving my 3 inferior ships free reign to bLast all 7 AI ships to pieces. Had it instead killed my ships (which it could have) and the base space yards it would have crippled me. Now the follow up fleet of 6 light cruisers right behind the first one will meet with my 3 old ships and 5 new ships I wouldn't have had if my base space yards had been destroyed.

But still, the small changes I made has given me a pretty good fight out of the AI. Had I been fighting 2 AI's at once I doubt I would have made it this far. Thankfully my homesystem only has 2 warp points of which one leads into a black hole with all warp points in/out of it causing damage. Not many ships coming through that way, thank the lord. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

I have also tried to get the AI to research, build and use troops and armor but it doesn't seem to work yet.

Re: Getting a fight out of the AI
 

I forgot to mention I don't use mines. Makes defending alot harder. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

It's now 2404.4 and I have now have a fleet of 12 light cruisers and have destroyed 8 more AI light cruisers with a fleet of 9 more being next on the list. I am now in AI territory once again.

Re: Getting a fight out of the AI
 

You failed to say exactly how you altered the files to get the AI to build those base space yards.
Seems like a good idea, cause I noticed that every AI race has tons and tons of extra resources that it could be using for building and maintaining lots more ships than it usually has.

Re: Getting a fight out of the AI
 

Tell us and post the file. ;-)

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I AM Canadian.

Re: Getting a fight out of the AI
 

Sorry about that. Here's a quick description of what I did. I'll post the files later when I have more time.

Default_AI_Construction_Vehicles.txt:
-------------------
Changes made:
Exploration:

Inserted entry 1 Base Space Yard

Infrastructure:

Changed entry 8 to must have 4 Base Space Yard
Changed entry 32 to must have 1 Boarding Ship
Changed entry 12 to must have 10 troop

Prepare for Attack, Attack:

Moved entry 2 colonizer to entry 10
Changed entry 2 from colonizer to troop, same settings as for Fighter
Inserted entry 8 Troop Transport, same settings as for Carrier
--------------------

Default_AI_Research.txt:
-------------------
Changes made:

Added Research of Armor at 3 locations. The first 3 found when doing a search for armor.
Added Research of Troops at 2 locations and Troop Weapons at one location. The only ones in the file.
-------------------

It doesn't seem to research or use armor and troops. Haven't really checked all that much yet though.

Re: Getting a fight out of the AI
 

Jubala:

I have been able to get them to armor their ships without a problem. You have to make sure that Chemistry and Armor are in their Research tree though. I have the Terrans now building a good mix of armored missile ships with gun armed point defense ships for support. Now if only there was a way to get them to stay together as opposed to always wandering around alone...

Note to all who are using Jubala's changes:

In order for this to work, you have to be playing with AI set for a High Bonus. Otherwise it will just choke the AI's econ trying to build that many shipyards and paying upkeep on them. The high bonus gives it enough resources to be able to do so and then be able to continue with their usual build queue.

Talenn

Re: Getting a fight out of the AI
 

Jubala I´m waiting for your files with great anxiety. Please post them as soon as you can. Talenn could you please also post your modified files.
I think it will be very addictive for me to play games with diferent files especialy if it wasn´t me who modified them and i skip the description of the changes so that i won´t know how the AI will act.
I would also modify the files but i don´t fell confident enouth since the first time i modified the number of max sistems i had to reistall the game. So rookie that i don´t even backup the original file.
I promise that you can count with my feedback after i play with the files.

Re: Getting a fight out of the AI
 

Bakunine:

Well, my mods are very much a perpetual 'work in progress'. I play a game, tweak something, play again, tweak some more and so forth. I dont think it will ever truly be 'finished' in that sense.

Also, I have changed quite a bit of the way the game flows and I'm not sure that people would be that interested. I've reduced the number of facilities that the larger planets can hold, have slightly increased the number that 'domed' colonies can hold. I do stuff like this to mitigate the luck of a player finding a Huge breathable world in their home system. On a small map, a single stroke like that is almost a game breaker as others will have a VERY hard time catching up.

I've also done things like make pop count more at the low end by reducing the production and build rate for colonies under 100M and slightly reduced for under 200M. This encourages more population transfer...something the AI actually does fairly well.

Lets see, I've reduced the amount of resources generated from Extractors, Farms and Refineries in an effort to make expansion more necessary (ie to promote conflict). I think my data gives a more 'MOO2' feeling to the game in that Empires and fleets tend to be a bit smaller overall (at least until the late game).

Organics and Radioactives are more necessary in my set as well. Both figure more heavily into facility costs so that heavy amounts of colonization require more investiture in these resources. Both are also a bit more prominant in ship costs in my set.

I've renamed and tweak many of the weapons in the game. Some were just no brainers to research and some were such a LONG way to go to get any payoff that I never saw them being used in my multiplayer games (we play hotseat and can get a fair amount done in a sitting). I renamed many of them to give more 'flavor'...Gun I/II/III etc just doesnt have the same feels as 'Gauss Cannon', 'Heavy Gauss Cannon' and 'Advanced Gauss Cannon' etc. Its purely subjective stuff, but it adds a lot IMO.

Finally, I've been having to tweak the AI to respond to all these changes. This is by far the biggest challenge and I'm quite pleased by the results. Unfortunately, there are AI things that I cant (or dont know how to) tweak and that still leaves it feeling a little bit flat.

OK, so anyways, I guess it comes down to the fact that my 'mod' would be all or none. And there are ALOT of files that have changes in them. I've even replaced many of the sillier Race Portraits with .bmps I've found on the web and by inserting other people's racial portraits in for some. It CERTAINLY adds a lot to the game when you can 'respect' the enemies you run into rather than laugh at them! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif I think the worst was the 'skinned teddy bear' look of the Toltayan thing...lol...I just couldnt bring myself to EVER be worried about insulting that face.

Oh well, so thats my story and I'm sticking to it. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif If you still want to take a look at it even with all of the above, I'll see if I can compile something, but no promises. The files are scattered all over creation and I dont even REMEMBER all the changes I've made in that Last month. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Talenn

Re: Getting a fight out of the AI
 

Bakunine:
I have uploaded the files I changed but I don't consider it be a finished mod. Not much of a mod at all since I didn't change much. But you wanted it so you got it. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Go read the readme in the modarchive if you want to know how my game ended. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Talenn:
How much begging will it take for you to upload your custom set? I have seen alot of people ask you for it now, including me, several times. You keep teasing us by mentioning changes you have made that sound good to say the least. So, pretty please, just upload the damn thing already? Please? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/tongue.gif

Re: Getting a fight out of the AI
 

Jubala:

Ok, let me see what I can do. I have to do alot of collating to find out what all I have to upload. I'm not going to bother with the extra graphics files cuz I only have a 56k connection and I dont want the file to be monster sized. I cant guarantee that it will be easy to install either as I'm not overly savvy about Winzip etc.

BUT...I will get it out there one way or another. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Talenn

Re: Getting a fight out of the AI
 

My first words must go to: Thanks for your reply Talenn. Three days ago I said that it´s unusual to see great forums as this one is. Well i must correct it. This forum is a "Primus Inter Pares"-(The first among the bests). I only surf the web for a year but until now gold medal goes to all that post here.
The mods you made look very interesting. I specially like the need for more radioactives and organics. As things are right now when setting up a race it´s a great idea (if wanna beat AI easy) to set minerals production to 120%, and farming and radioactives to the minimum and spend the rest of the points in things like research,inteligence,etc. What looks even more pathetic is that (at least until now for me) the AI always change resources in a 1:1 ratio.So I could play a game without even having to have farms and refineries.
For talking of "MOO2" the Huge Breathable Planets in the home system makes me remember Orion, but this one was a step back, at leats in the beguining of the game (oh,oh there goes my scout).
It is possible to change my original files about size and number of facilities in the planet for yours without changing the rest, isn`t it? It won´t affect the rest of the game I presume. It would be nice if you send me it to luis_curado@clix.pt or post it in the mod section.
Can you (or anyone who reads this) say me if it is possible to play a game by email in which for example you had your altered files and someone the original files?
Talenn if there's a poll for who will have the oportunity to be a Beta Tester you can count with my vote. I don't now what's NDA's but I think you deserve it anyway.

Bakunine

Re: Getting a fight out of the AI
 

Jubala:

Thanks for your files. Gonna try them. I will say something after.

Re: Getting a fight out of the AI
 

Being able to mod my own files, I am trying out Jubala's hint about adding space yard bases to the AI build requirements. So far, I've only managed to meet an adjacent neutral in my newly started game but this guy was one tough little cookie to crack for all the head-start he had. The space yard base he had built did indeed help him churn out ships faster and put up more of a fight. I'm looking forward to meeting the major AI empires now.

Re: Getting a fight out of the AI
 

Talenn:
Great! I'm looking forward to it. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Bakunine:
Enjoy. Keep in mind that I went to war with the first AI I met shortly after I met them. They kept telling me to get out of my homesystem and I can't have that, now can I? So they kicked me out. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif But I hurt them good in the process though. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Getting a fight out of the AI
 

Jubala:

Haven´t used very much your files but until now it seems that it´s the AI who's getting a fight of me and if they wanted any of the three i have contacted could make me dead meat.

I set a + or - 40 systems game with neutrals off and everything high to the AI. I have a good homeworld.

I started very unluck. For the first time I didn´t had ANY planet to colonize in my starting system. Two warp-points that lead to empty systems, one of them with the thing that magnetizes ships(don´t remenber the name). After that I encoutered a race in a corner, their home system, and there was 4 breathble planets, 2 huge and 2 large, unbelievele. But meanwhile i encoutered another system with two huge doomed planets.

I dicided to colonize the doomed first, but didn´t went to the borders screen,it was already claimed. I colonized one and came another race with two ships and kaboom. I have to say that i started with my usual tactic of building first 4 or 5 colony ships and explore with them. Well that´s no more effective.Then I start sending colony ships with 2 or 3 ships and they always send more and better then I had.No alternative then abandon this system and unclaim it.

What's been saving me is that went partnership with the race who have the 4 breathable planets and i could colonize them. Now i´m at peace with all three and trying to make a fleet who's effective.

It´s amazing the number of ships they have.
Next time i have to start with less computer bonus.
It´s true that im not a experienced player with SE series, not even with SE4,(to be honest i spend more time reading this forum them playing, but if i have fun that way http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif)but the few changes you made, make a BIG change in how the game must be played, I can say whithout doubts.
Thanks for the mod.
Thanks also to Tallen,Shadow99,[126]Mephisto,Trancejeremy,James Sterret,Tampa_gamer, and all that post or will post their hard work.

Re: Getting a fight out of the AI
 

One additional thing to get a better fight out of the AI- I expanded on a concept I started in my 1.00 Mod by modifying the Default_AI_Fleets file by:

(1) Changing the number of Div 1 fleets from 3 to 2; and

(2) Changing the % to use in fleets from 80 to 90.

I went ahead and made this change to each race's AI_Fleet files and it made a considerable difference. Now it increases the chance the AI will be escorting their transport and colony ships. I was very suprised by how a little number change would make such a big difference, but it did.

Re: Getting a fight out of the AI
 

Bakunine:
I'm glad to hear my modest mod is working out for you. Good luck defeating your foes. You're gonna need it. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Tampa_Gamer:
Sounds interesting, I'll have to try it when I have more time on my hands.

Re: Getting a fight out of the AI
 

Hello to you all

Another great improvement to the AI, IMHO :

In my current game, an AI which had recently declared war to me was in a process of accumulating a fleet. The only problem was that it accumulated his fleet directly beside my main battle fleet, which was waiting for reinforcement.
So on 4 consecutive turns, it put 6 ships directly beside my fleet. Each turn, I destroyed his 6 ships. Together, those 24 ships would have been a good challenge, however his potential big fleet was destroyed piecemeal.

My point is, the AI should recognized danger. I.E. It should recognized immediate danger

An algorythm like that could be implemented :

1. Spot all ennemy fleets within a single turn range of my assets.

2. If tonnage of ennemy fleet is 20 % greater than my defense assets tonnage (WP + Ship + Fighter+ Bases), than get out of range ! (to fight another day!!)

3. The % used to determined fleet behavior could eventually be different depending on the planet under risk of attacks (i.e. Never flee if homeworld or key mining world is under risk of attacks)

It is always better to flee than fight a losing battle because i.e. a 3 to 1 advantage usually means that the inferior fleet will be destroyed by the superior fleeet, at little or no loss to the superior one. It would also minimize the typical AI behavior of leaving single ship here and there just waiting to be destroyed.

My question to you guys is this one :
- Do you think it would significantly improve the challenge offered by the AI
- Is this improvement can be done by us (Mods) or Malfador.
- Would it be useful to send this to Malfador ?

Re: Getting a fight out of the AI
 

You guys may be interested in a mod I am making. It will contain a lot of new techs and some changes for the existing ones.
Here are some new techs:
- 15 levels of Multi-phased shields
- Phazors
- Kinetic Studies racial trait (has kinetic weapons that do more damage on the longer distances, and kinetic technology that has inertial stabilizer and nullifier)
- Plasma Cannons (after Meson BLaster)
- Gauss Cannons (after Uranium depleted cannon)
- Quantum Pulse Torpedoes and Atom-x Torpedoes
- Laser Weapons and Laser Combat Sensors

These are just some of the things that are already finished, tested and balanced. There is lot more to be done, but I will wait for the MM to post new patch first (there are some important changes that will effect my mod). Also when I do all the techs, I will tweak AI to use them.
You may have noticed that lot of my techs so far are MOO2 oriented. I guess 100000+ hours spent on it got me. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif
When it is all finished, I will send a copy to Hadrian to post it on hyperionbase.com, so you will be able to get it there.

Feel free to give some comments or new ideas. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Getting a fight out of the AI
 

Michou --

Tonnage isn't that good of an indicator. Most of my LT designs aren't nearly as dangerous in combat as most of my CA designs; I'd rather fight against a fleet of my minelayers rather than just one of my DN warships. And power probably scales nOnlinearly with hull size even among warships due to better weapon mounts and more room for goodies (sensors, talismans, solar sails, etc).

It also doesn't necessarily know your fleet's speed, if not all of your ship classes have been seen before and it lacks a scanner. It should probably guess based on your known ship designs and engine constraints due to hull type, 'tho.

More importantly, it doesn't know what weapons, armor etc you have if you have unknown ship classes. Hull type doesn't tell you that much -- a BB could be a beamer, a missile ship, a spaceyard ship, a sweeper, an organic-armor-rammer...

It should definitely use LR scanners more, to compensate for the fact that people have a much better idea, through experience, of AI ship design (e.g. Jraenor implies missiles, Ukra-Tal implies organic weaponry -- often a mix of seeker and beam, and so forth) and don't forget that between games. If it doesn't have one available, but it does have fighters, it could sacrifice one to learn the ship classes. Alternately, sacrifice a satellite (e.g. at a warp point), an unimportant colony, intel points (if it can get through...), or an unimportant ship.

Once it knows your ship designs, it'll be MUCH better off judging how a fight would go. It could even simulate the fight<LI>, but that's possibly a bit much. I'd suggest a win-loss matrix, except that combined arms can have a HUGE impact.


<LI> Exception: cargo. You still need an LR scanner to be sure of ship cargo (fighter design...), and I think the LR scanner doesn't work at all on planets.

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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

Re: Getting a fight out of the AI
 

Daynarr - sounds great. But you should post it here as well (go to the Mod forum on this Board). The Hyperion site seems to go up/down frequently and is hard to download from.

Re: Getting a fight out of the AI
 

I understand the tonnage is not the optimum way of judging of the outcome battle.

Personnaly I would not mind the AI automatically knowing the design of every human ships, because organic intelligence (humans) can figure the capabilities of the AI ships by our general experience in SE4. For the AI, every game is a new one.

If the AI knew the capability of every ship, it could run every potential battles in the simulator, and based on the results, decide how to move its fleet.

A potential battle should not just be a possible attack by the AI, but a possible attack by another player (i.e. Most ennemy fleet within immediate range.)

That would solve the problem of AI keeping inferior fleets right beside my fleet. Usually, in warfare, you pool forces behind the front-line, and after, you send them ! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Right now, I am Mega-Evil, and there is know way my stretched fleets could withstand the blow of a single AI fleet, if it were to put up most of his ships in a single fleet. Right now however they are giving them to me piecemeal. I want to be defeated ! I play on hard, low bonus, no mines.

Mich