Is Resupply Tech worth it???
 

I was answering a post on another SE4 forum and thought about this. This was my reply to a post but the question stands on its own:

From my experience, Quantum Reactors are far too expensive (in terms of research points and maintenance) to justify using them. Instead, I research Stellar Harnessing and Storage. Put 2 Solar Collector III's and 2 Supply Storage III's on any ship and they'll only get low on supplies in star-less systems. As another benefit, the next 3 levels in Stellar Harnessing give you movement bonus (Solar Sails I, II, and III).

Sure, you're using 60Kt more space, but for the time that it will take you to research Quantum Reactors, I will research 2 ship sizes, 3 movement bonus points (Solar Sails), and at least 2 more weapons levels that (IMO) far outweigh QR's. With the same research points I can travel forever, have a bigger ship, be faster, and have more powerful weapons.

Others may argue that the extra space for weapons outweigh the previous benefits. They'll say you can put 1 QR and supply the whole fleet so you'll have 80 KT per ship. I disagree with this action especially with big battles. It seems that the ships only exchange supplies during their movement turn. So, if you have a big battle that Lasts 2 or three of the AI turns, your ships with only 2500 standard supply points will run out soon and not be resupplied in between the AI "waves". My ships, on the other hand, will start out with 4500 supply points and will be more suited to inflict more damage or run away longer -take your pick.

IMO there is no question - the resupply tech is almost useless in SE4. In SE3 'cause there was nothing like the solar collector, resupply was a vital tech - you needed it for long range anything. Now it seems to be just the opposite. Are there any good reasons for researching resupply??????

Now that oughta' start a little discussion.......

[This message has been edited by rdouglass (edited 11 December 2000).]

Re: Is Resupply Tech worth it???
 

Go for both -- stellar harnessing first, resupply much later. You'll eventually want the QR, for

a) fighting in nebulas, black-hole systems, and so forth in a huge galaxy. In a huge 255-system galaxy, a player might even push for QR and stellar manipulation, and start exploding stars.

b) many fights in a row -- e.g. making 7 or 8 different attacks per turn with the same ship. Particularly if you use strategic combat, where the AI wastes oodles of supply on pointless shots...

c) more space for certain nifty goodies, like religious talisman (40 or 50kt IIRC), cloaking devices (40kt), and tachyon/gravitic sensors (40kt again). The talisman, in particular, is extremely helpful.

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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

Re: Is Resupply Tech worth it???
 

QRs aren't too expensive in the latter part of the game when the RPs are really pouring in, and that's the same part of the game when you've got all those space-consuming extras to install. I tend to research Stellar Harnessing early and then Resupply later.

I do tend to research Resupply enough to get the first Emergency Supply Pod early in the game. It's a handy component to put on a support ship, just in case! I try not to exploit the Repair Bay/Emergency Pod combo though . . . I find it takes some of the fun out of the game to use the loopholes.

Re: Is Resupply Tech worth it???
 

I tend to use Stellar Harnessing, too. I prefer to build dedicated "Supply Ships" and build fleets rather than spend vital space in every warship on solar panels, though. The reason that Resupply doesn't seem "worth it" to research, at least early in the game, is that supply is something you can get from a planet instantly. This means you tend to want to stick around your planets, which is as it should be. If the QR was available early, the whole flavor of the game would be changed.

Speaking of the QR, does anyone think it's a bit illogical that one little component can refuel an entire FLEET in a single turn? Sure, the tech is supposed to produce limitless supplies but does that mean a limitless VOLUME or just an endless stream at a real, definable rate? I think the QR should produce X supplies per turn and just never run out, not infinite supplies per turn.

Re: Is Resupply Tech worth it???
 

Yeah, it actually took me a while to figure
out how powerful it actually was. I simply
assumed it only resupplied the ship which
had it installed: this is not so. I agree
with you: it should produce a large -- but
finite -- amount of supplies every turn.

Re: Is Resupply Tech worth it???
 

I agree as well - QRs are a bit illogical right now. Providing a large but finite amount of supply a turn sounds like a great idea for an improvement.

Re: Is Resupply Tech worth it???
 

Yeah, either that or make it so that a
ship with a QR neither needs supply nor
provides any.

C//

Re: Is Resupply Tech worth it???
 

Great comments. But I still have a question for combat and supplies.

Does anyone know how the sharing of supplies work during combat. Even if I do have a QR on 1 ship in my fleet, it does not seem to share supplies during combat. My non-QR ships run out of power fast when I'm up against waves of AI ships. I like to use Shard Cannons (Crystal Tech) on heavy mounts and they eat up the supplies pretty fast. Then once they run out, my combat speed (I think) drops to 1 in the next round (AI wave). IOW, they don't seem to be resupplying between combat turns only between regular turns. Anyone else see this problem???

Of course the solution would be to QR every ship, but again, I like to storm the AI early and those "tanker" ships don't seem to cut it ('cause of the above). In low tech, large map games (IMO) it still seems a waste to research resupply when I can do the same with using a little bit more Kt space and a LOT less time and research points. Maybe it makes sense in an All Techs - Small Map game, but I never play those.

That's what makes SE series cool - there really isn't 1 best way to do things. Maybe I should play against myself or another human sometime and test the differences.

Re: Is Resupply Tech worth it???
 

On sharing during combat -- there isn't any. There might not be any between attacks if you have to defend several times during an AI turn, either. The ship captains have other things on their mind during combat... if you want to *guarantee* that a warship won't run out during combat, it needs a QR.

(Evil tip -- if your opponents run out of supply *during* combat, but are otherwise intact, consider backing away and waiting out the 30 turns. Then attack again, immediately. Their shields will be down -- useful if dropping them by force would have required a slugfest.)

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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

Re: Is Resupply Tech worth it???
 

From my observations ships out of supply can still shoot to their hearts content. Doesn't seem quite right to me. Especially considering they couldn't in SE3.

Re: Is Resupply Tech worth it???
 

Actually later on with my mod their will be 4 types of reactors leading up to Quantum ones. The lesser ones will simply create fixed amounts of power (like solar panels, but without requiring stars)....

Re: Is Resupply Tech worth it???
 

Jubula, mine seem to fire weapons OK, but they only get 1 move point. With only 1 move point, I can't even take out a Colony Ship with a DN fleet in 30 turns. I also agree that ships should NOT be able to fire their weapons with no supplies since all weapons (at least that I've seen) use supplies.

Has anyone mentioned this to MM??

Re: Is Resupply Tech worth it???
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shadow99:
Actually later on with my mod their will be 4 types of reactors leading up to Quantum ones. The lesser ones will simply create fixed amounts of power (like solar panels, but without requiring stars)....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And how will you do this since that ability to spontaneously generate a fixed amount of power isn't available in the game yet? The "Emergency Resupply Pod" power requires you to use the "Use Pods" button when you want the supplies, so it's not automatic. The QR does not take any numbers... yet.

Re: Is Resupply Tech worth it???
 

yes resupply generation does not work (yet), as an ability... But when that ability works they will use it. Until then I've been experimenting with other methods of providing a similair effect...

Re: Is Resupply Tech worth it???
 

rdouglass, that's right. My ships also get's only one movement point which makes them pretty much sitting ducks for ships they otherwise would send to the afterlife but they can still fire their weapons. Doesn't make any sense to me.

In fact, the whole supply system doesn't make much sense to me. Supply is used for all weapon types and engines. The same stuff that moves the ship forward can be fired at an enemy in the form of bullets, missiles, and a multitude of different beams. Seems strange to me at least. Projectile weapons should need bullets, beams should need power from onboard powerplants that would also run the engines unless they need some special fuel and missile launchers need missiles. And the crew needs food.

Re: Is Resupply Tech worth it???
 

Hrmmm. Something that makes the movement penalty, but no weapon-fire penalty, even stranger when out of supply is that combat movement doesn't cost supply at all -- only weapon firing does (although PD is free IIRC).

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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

Re: Is Resupply Tech worth it???
 

I think the supply system is a good workable abstraction but I do think firing should be disallowed if your ships don't have the supply left for the shots.

As for movement in combat being "free", albeit limited to speed 1 when you are out of fuel, well, I think the fact movement during combat is on a much smaller scale than movement outside of combat makes it reasonable that there's no supply consumption. A small charge might be reasonable but if you really want to get realistic, ships out of fuel won't move slow - they'd just keep moving at the same velocity and on the same vector indefinitely!

Eesh! I don't want to think about the programming it would take to add a Newtonian movement system to the game, or the frustration of trying to plot intercept vectors and so forth for a fleet as you move. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: Is Resupply Tech worth it???
 

Eventually, when systems get powerful enough, it might be reasonable to switch to a full RT (but *slow* RT, since we mere humans have much slower reflexes than machines... unless the unit AI is much stronger as well) Newtonian combat model.

That'd do away with silliness like move-fire-move where there isn't even a risk of opp fire, and also it'd reduce some other cheesiness like early missile ships fleeing while shooting missiles backwards since the runner's missiles would be penalized with the ship's forward velocity vector.

Things like intercepts can be computed via trig, anyway. I once sat down, scribbled for a while, and then added a torpedo targeting system to a Netrek client (BRMH); the code worked in real time on vintage-'94 systems. OTOH, it only had to compute traces for up to 8 torps at a time. I don't have the code anymore, but it was very, very short.

But not yet. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif And the benefits would be much less clear for the strategic phase, probably.

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-- The thing that goes bump in the night