Richard, very classy!
 

Hello, Richard. I saw your solicitation for SEIV on that "other game" forum. Very classy for a game developer/designer/Honcho (your exact title?) to come to another board and say "ignore all these other negative opinions, our game is great". Are you visiting all the high-traffic sites as well?

That is the second High-class thing I have seen you do in a week. Good job.

Jonathan

Re: Richard, very classy!
 

Jonathan, you seem a spiteful, immature person. Perhaps, if so many things are not to your liking, you will do us all a favor and simply leave?

Jason2

Re: Richard, very classy!
 

I would recommend that everyone just ignore him. Troll's do this to get attention and, by ignoring him, you take away the thing he seeks the most.

Re: Richard, very classy!
 

Smite him! Smite him!

Re: Richard, very classy!
 

Would this by any wild random chance be the MOO III forum? Could his actions have something to do with the fact that someone, oh of course not connected to the company, posted a thread here about MOO III? Hmm? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/tongue.gif

Re: Richard, very classy!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>game developer/designer/Honcho (your exact title?)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IIRC, his old title was "Director of Covert Operations" but his newer one seems to just be "Marketing." I like the old one better and the post you describe (while I neither condone nor denounce it) fits it perfectly http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif.

Re: Richard, very classy!
 

I am not familiar with the MOOIII forum, although I wonder if your post answers my question about Richard wandering the forums like a traveling salesperson ("Ding Dong! Hi, I am Richard, one of the Honcho's over at Shrapnel Games. Have you heard of SEIV? It is a wonderful 4X game with fantastic AI and many working features. Oh, and don't mind all those comments about the AI being terrible and huge amounts of bugs... MM has a wonderful history of supporting his products. Come by and visit our forum, but if you do, don't say anything bad, even in your defense, or we'll ban you.").


WendellIM, too true. Nice to hear from you again.

Jonathan

Re: Richard, very classy!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Freyland:
Come by and visit our forum, but if you do, don't say anything bad, even in your defense, or we'll ban you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't look Banned to me and I can't recall you saying anything but bad stuff so...

Re: Richard, very classy!
 

Freyland,

Heh. I know both Steve and Charles (BTW he is talking about the BTS forum) and when someone Posts about a game I am doing work for on another forum and talks badly of it I have no problem defending it. Also if someone talks badly about Combat Mission I will personally write Charles and let him know about it so he can take corrective action.

If you go on other forums and discredit the games we do I'll make sure to clear up those misconceptions.

What I am wondering is what your beef is with me? Are you upset because I chided you for calling someone a fool? Which person is being classy now, just curious?

------------------
Sarge is coming...

Richard Arnesen
Director of Covert Ops
Shrapnel Games http://www.shrapnelgames.com

[This message has been edited by Richard (edited 17 December 2000).]

Re: Richard, very classy!
 

Well, Freyland, it seems you do not know exactly what SE4 is. You claim that SE4 has "huge amounts of bugs". I have run the game, and it is remarkable stable. I am a beta tester, and I can tell you that the game is pretty much bug free. (Not completely, because what is? Now if Microsoft can follow Aaron's lead...)
So, you exhibited a complete lack of knowledge on the subject which you bash. Good job.

Re: Richard, very classy!
 

Hello Instar. I never said the game was unstable. If you have actually read the "fix" lists, you know what I mean. Now who is talking without knowledge?

Richard, I called Courageous a fool because he made an incorrect accusation of me in an argumentative tone. You posted several times after that without saying anything, and then all of a sudden got a bug in your bonnet and posted about "banning". Give me a break! Try to be fair, and try to be realistic. Sure, you're the moderator, and it's your world. Ban me if you wish, but I think it would be unfair and FOOLish to ban me for defending myself without penalizing the other party. As for the other board, it is very well moderated. You should visit more often. As far as saying badly, here were my actual words:

&lt;p&gt;
Hi Lindan
What amazing timing. For the Last several days I have been persona non-grata over on that forum because of my complaints of the game being incomplete, and the AI being absolutely mediocre. At this time, I cannot recommend it. However, there is a beta patch due out ~12-19-00 with a list of fixes as long as my arm, so the opinion may change after that time, and I will gladly share mine again. There are at least two others from this board whom I have stumbled across over there, so perhaps they will comment as well.

Yours,
Jonathan

&lt;p&gt;

I hope that answers your questions. I really wish you had not suddenly felt the need to threaten penalty to me then, Richard. I had come to the conclusion that it is not my duty to disuade the sycophants of this world, and was going to just shut up. Why did you get all indignant all of a sudden?

Jonathan

Re: Richard, very classy!
 

Jonathan,

I think you're a fool http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif You are clearly a person non-grata because you have a chip on your shoulder a mile-long. Others have posted here about the bugs and frustration with AI (including me) but it seems you deserve the award of "most immature" http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Good Job, Jonathan - every board has to have one - you get the honors here.

J2

Re: Richard, very classy!
 

I guess I missed it. What was this fool
comment all about?

C//

Re: Richard, very classy!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jason2:
Jonathan,

I think you're a fool http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif You are clearly a person non-grata because you have a chip on your shoulder a mile-long. Others have posted here about the bugs and frustration with AI (including me) but it seems you deserve the award of "most immature" http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Good Job, Jonathan - every board has to have one - you get the honors here.

J2<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I for one do not see Jonathan as trolling at all. He's a very active/experienced gamer and I don't feel he has made any points that are not valid.

IMHO, Jonathan's particular frustration is having his objective criticisms written off by representatives of Shrapnel as "misconceptions."

In fact, the one thing that a majority of people agree on is that the AI is poor. Well, everyone except for Richard and I wouldn't expect him to say it.

However, to write off the feedback of experienced gamers as "misconceptions" on other forums can be perceived as demeaning.

To say that there is nothing wrong with the AI and that you're just tweaking it is what you would expect from a marketing dude, but I don't think anyone posting here would support that opinion.

If there were nothing wrong with the AI, it wouldn't be a number one priority with MM to "tweak" it.

I for one would feel less frustrated if Shrapnel would come out and say, "Yup, the AI can be better and our Users let us know that. We're working on it."

There are other ways to field the question than portraying it as a misconception. For example if this were my game and experienced gamers said the AI sucked, I would probably say something like, "While some Users have found it challenging, we don't feel we've done our jobs until the AI can kick everyone's butt. We're working on it."

In this case, there are major issues with the AI. It's not just a matter of skill. It's certainly not a misconception that the AI is poor.

Re: Richard, very classy!
 

I think everyone understands that the AI
still needs quite a bit of work to present
a player with a reasonable challenge. What
I personally object to is characterizing
SEIV as a "bad game" or as "buggy". It's a
stable game with good design; and given
MM's business model of continuous-improvement
based-on-feedback, people really ought to
count their blessings. Few games have
developers which care about them like that.

So instead of posting "this AI sucks" or
whatever, try focusing on specific recommend-
ations for what the AI *ought* to do or
exactly how it might be improved to present
a better challenge.

C//

Re: Richard, very classy!
 

Um, seeing that I am a beta tester, I have to (and I do) read the fix lists.

"so the opinion may change after that time, and I will gladly share mine again."
And I bet they will be so overjoyed to hear it.

Re: Richard, very classy!
 

*sigh*

Johnathan I never said a word about banning you. I did mention that I thought folks should lighten up and keep the discussion civil. Again I never even mentioned anything about giving you any sort of personal penalty. As far as my timing I didn't really look at this thread until I recieved an email complaint about the tone from one of the forum readers. Once I recieved that I investigated. As far as the BTS forum I read it every day, I ama big Combat Mission fan.

My point is that the game is not "imcomplete". The game could use some work in several areas, the AI being the most noticable. However (as I said earlier) I will take our game and rate it with any other Space based 4X game at time of release made in the Last 5 years.

In any case the point still stands, I have no issue with dissent here, but at the same time I will pop in to give my POV on the matter. Just keep it civil.

------------------
Sarge is coming...

Richard Arnesen
Director of Covert Ops
Shrapnel Games
http://www.shrapnelgames.com

Re: Richard, very classy!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Richard:
*sigh*

Johnathan I never said a word about banning you.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Richard, I would have emailed this to you rather than waste forum space, but you do not provide your address in your profile. From the "Up to date beta info" thread...

------
Freyland...
I have no problem with you complaining, unlike some other Boards that won't get you Banned. HOwever calling people a "fool" and such can.
------------------

Jar any memories?

Instar, I am glad you are so informed, since you obviously weren't when you posted towards me the first time (about claiming I said the game was unstable, in case your memory is as poor as Richard's). Believe it or not, but I do not enjoy this "baiting" anymore than you. So, if you will keep your Posts realistic instead of exaggerating mine, we'll have one less thing to "keep civil" about, as Richard requests.
My point in the first place is that the game was released incomplete. I made a big deal about this, and everybody calls me a troll. Do you truly expect me to play nice when people act like that? Accept it! The game was released prematurely, whether because the "fanbase" decided, as some posters suggested, or because Shrapnel wanted to get it out before the Holiday (read: money) while there were no other good 4X games out there. I don't claim to know why, I simply stand by the clear fact the game was released incomplete. I mean, look at all the Posts! Look at the list of "fixes"! If you keep badgering me that I am wrong, I will keep proving to you that I am right. The sad part is we just go around and around.

I have said my piece (again), and would like to be done with it. If you wish to argue it, or choose to insult me, we can do it again. I will always have the "Fixed" list to quote. What will you have? Think about it.

Jonathan

Re: Richard, very classy!
 

MM made it quite clear when the game was released that patches would be released after the fact - Anyone who was reading the forums knows that The pressure to get SE4 out was immense. Now it is getting the best most intense test it could ever get - the entire SE4 fan community. Hopefully decent input will come out of it instead of game and people bashing....
I think patience is the better part of valor here..with decent input from the dedicated fans - the game can only get better and better.

Re: Richard, very classy!
 

IMHO, there's a fine line between constructive and destructive criticism. Freyland seems to me to be right at that line, so while I don't really have a problem with his comments (though they did get a bit personal at one point), I can see how some would consider them over the line and thus feel protective of a game they like.
However, if you want to see what real flaming against a game company is like, check out the unfortunate scene on Taldren's SFC II forum! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/shock.gif You'll find a whole lot of hotheads spewing hatred that makes Jonathan's Posts look like love letters. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif So, I'd suggest giving a little bit of extra latitude when deciding whether a post is a flame or just honest criticism - based on the SFC II Posts, if it's a flame you'll have no doubt!

Anyway, here's hoping that the tone on the SE IV board remains civil as it has been in the past, with all participants trying to improve this game that has such promise.

Regards to all,

Wendell

Re: Richard, very classy!
 

Amen

Re: Richard, very classy!
 

To put this in perspective, SE IV in its current state is as complete or stable as any other 4x title post patch barring the AI.

I will agree that the AI scripts need a major rework. As they don't seem to be having significant impact on AI play personality currently, and because of that MOO2 still rates slightly higher on the "all time" hit scale. However if the next patch comes out with a revamp that makes the behavior of each of the AI player distinct, MM could very well leave the remaining "to do" list in limbo and still topple MOO2 as the reigning champ.

After all every 4x game released (even Civ2) was finished with a few remaining tweaks that could and should have been looked at. So far Civ has been the most polished in a postproduction polish value, but the very complex nature of these games makes bug hunting almost a lifetime career. Even SMAC's initial release suffered similar problems even after a much longer testing gyration!

I think the 'to do' list is a credit to the folks at MM for aggressively tackling and wanting to improve their product. The Last patch for MOO2 still had a like size list unattended (and it's considered the best by most strategy buffs)!

Freyland, think of it this way. For an Indy publisher release on a semi shoestring budget title, SE IV's release is putting some of the bigger publishing houses efforts to shame (both in design and the polish fronts). For such a complex title and such limited resources SE IV is a remarkable product and effort! You can sometimes forget shrapnel isn't an interplay or microprose outfit, but when you put it in context. I say bravo! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

And thanks Richard for your visibility here...I know you take some fire here but your sacrifice on the front lines doesn't go unnoticed by those of us who know how treacherous the road you, shrapnel, and it’s benefactors endure with your efforts of blazing into a niche buisness plan that equates to some interesting and largely unexplorered business frontiers.

Re: Richard, very classy!
 

John,

Okay you got me. I did say that and to be honest I completely forgot about it.

In any case I agree with Wendell that we all want the game to become the best 4X space game that we can and these comments do help. You may even want to drop Aaron a note at aaron@shrapnelgames.com as he does not frequent these forums that much (or that is my impression).

And if you need to drop me a note just drop me one at rdarnese@shrapnelgames.com.

Have a Happy Holidays folks...

------------------
Sarge is coming...

Richard Arnesen
Director of Covert Ops
Shrapnel Games
http://www.shrapnelgames.com

Re: Richard, very classy!
 

"and don't mind all those comments about the AI being terrible and huge amounts of bugs"
Well, does that jar your memory? You said that, and I viewed that as a claim that the game was unstable.
Because I'm a beta tester, I have more experience with the game, and I just can't understand how there are "huge amounts of bugs".
Also, you started this thread out with a flame on someone. Very very classy, eh?
I have to get the impression that you're just bashing SE4. How about bashing StarCraft? The storyline was so fixed! Im having major trouble with battle.net right now too, and I can't play on it. But how much does this detract from the game? Very little. I love playing StarCraft, and I will for a long while.
So if you're just going to offer negative comments and personal attacks, please leave, or fix the attitude.
(This is my Last post in this thread Freyland, so whatever flames against me I won't hear. Send them to my e-mail @ instar_m@hotmail.com where they will be promptly deleted.)