Surrender Changes
 

First let me state that I only ask a race to surrender when I've beaten them down to one planet and have that planet down to less than 100M population and a blockade in place. However, not everyone sets these limits on themself so I feel that the following changes should be made to the AI surrending.
At least half (I say all) facilities should be destroyed(this should also happen when you are gifted/tributed a planet). This would also help rationalize the lose of special tech as the research/construction centers would be lose along with workers.
This should also hold true for 1/4 - 1/2 of the ships.
If the enemy has planets in more than 1 system, than the system without(with the weakest) player presence should also form a new empire. If more than 1 systems is without a player presence than it should be the 1 furtherest from the player.
If the enemy as a partnership with a different empire it should gift away some ships/planets/technology/anything not nailed down. I've seen this happen in AOE2 with repect to resources.
The population should also decrease (1/4-1/3) due to those who would not quietly surrender having to be 'silenced'.

Harsh, yes but more realistic than the current system.

Re: Surrender Changes
 

You're assuming that the populace is happy with their current government. Some of them might welcome the chance to throw off their cruel, incompetent, failing dictators who make them live in domed colonies under harsh conditions. They might be excited to join up with a large, thriving, well-run empire with numerous rich planets of just the right type for them to settle down and make a good life for themselves and their children/buds/seedlings/clones.

Re: Surrender Changes
 

I like the ideas. I too don't try to abuse the AI when I'm beating them bad. I know the AI is not as easy to get tributes from now, but IMO the AI should NEVER give up its homeworld. I had an AI with 4 planets left in 2 systems. I asked for a tribute of Any Planet. The stupid AI gaveme its HOMEWORLD and the other planets had no SP's, RD's, or SY's at all!!! It soon got crushed by the maintenance costs of it's StarBase it left in orbit around the HomeWorld it gave me.

Again I say, the AI should NEVER give up its homeworld.

Re: Surrender Changes
 

Not to mention that usually the attacker is the one who sets the surrender terms. And that the attacker may have such fun toys as plague bombs, tectonic bombs, and inverted quantum beams.

Have I obliterated systems yet just to teach rioters a lesson? Not yet. But I will if MM doesn't make it at least somewhat possible that a Bloodthirsty race can maintain happiness *and* expand simultaneously; right now, surrendered aliens typically riot inside of 10 turns (that's with Artisans culture, and, IIRC, a racial happiness bonus as well. Even *my* populations often turn Unhappy due to colonization -- most likely... even w/ UPC III's in every system). Until it's changed, surrendered populations do practically nothing for me except provide LOS and fill up my turn log.

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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

Re: Surrender Changes
 

I wonder if you could get MM to include a few lines in Settings or the Race files for each race that allows you to set a War Resource Level and a War Fleet Level.

One line would be a comparision of resource generation at the beginning of a turn against resource generation at the beginning of the war. If the remaining generation level was below the choosen percentage this would cause the AI to ask for peace.

The other line could be for check against fleet value at start of war and would operate the same way.

Other comparision lines might be added to refine specific race victory and defeat levels. (Percentage of trade lost/gained, population, colonies, etc.) Other lines might let us set Demand, Ask, Beg, Bribe, Grovel, and Surrender points.

Well, just some half formed thoughts. Might be one way to get the AI to act a little more smart and give us more customization options.

Re: Surrender Changes
 

I don't know that I'd say it's more realistic to suggest the empires not surrender until a large chunk of their empire is slaughtered. Realistically, if your opponent clearly will win out, resistance is indeed futile, unless you hate the opposition so much you really would rather see your worlds reduced to slag rather than support the conquerors.

Anyway, the problem isn't realism, the problem is that the AI is atrocious. I'd rather they just made it more of a challenge as opposed to making it taking a beating for a longer period of time before throwing in the towel...

Re: Surrender Changes
 

If the AI would accept war ending results other than genocide and total surrender, things like this wouldn't be an issue. Not too many wars end with the total obliteration of one side. The AI should be able to offer some kind of a tribue and a non-agression treaty if its losing badly, then it would rarely be placed in so bad a situation that it needed to surrender completely.

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Re: Surrender Changes
 

Maybe MM could put in some surrender rules for the AI and player. Something along the line of what happened during the Napoleanic Era in Europe. Most nations surrendered when a loss became obvious and then rebelled when France was weak or occupied.
For example if the AI was getting creamed it could offer to be subjucated to you and you would have to accept unless you were xenophobic.
They also could have the possibility of a surrendered or subjucated race rebelling if certain circumstances exist.

Re: Surrender Changes
 

One change you can make to this is to edit the AI_politics.txt file to make surrender and giving tribute harder. But I do think that most cultures would surrender if it was the only option other than complete destruction. There could however be exceptions extremely zenophobic races perhaps would never surrender and prefer to "fight to the Last man".

Taqwus I always play as a bloodthirsty race and I don't have a lot of problems maintaining happiness. You just have to build a lot of ships in most systems to boost your happiness. I also build Urban Pacification Centers in all my systems as soon as possible. The Last time I had a planet riot on me was before the first patch. Since then I rarely get planets even getting unhappy. The secret is to declare war early never make treaties with the AI and build ships on planets that are getting unhappy. If you do that you shouldn't see many riots.

Re: Surrender Changes
 

While on earth surrendering is done before total elimination, why should this be true for war between 2 Groups that view each other as "alien"?

Re: Surrender Changes
 

Ah. I don't build many ships at all, because the ones I do build tend to be very, very powerful and expensive -- and up to the main job already (wiping out all enemies; at the end of the Last game, I'd built no more than maybe 40-odd anti-ship BBs, and probably less than 30-40 other armed ships of any kind. But they worked, and they consumed LOTS of maintenance -- something like 800k minerals/turn for all ships and bases, IIRC.). It really should recognize ship cost or power when considering them for happiness...

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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

Re: Surrender Changes
 

I have to agree with the General up to a point. As humans, we have a inherit trait for self preservation. This trait might, and probably does not exist in every race we might encounter in space. I think that the addition of a line the configuration file/screen to allow surrenders by race or in the game as a whole should be looked at.

Jim Stern

Re: Surrender Changes
 

I still want surrender to mean something other than "My nation ceases to exist." Plenty of wars end in a surrender with both nations continuing to exist but one sacrificing something to the victor. The Gulf War for example, the Six-Days War for another. Russia surrendered to Germany and "only" lost Belorus and the Ukraine. A total surrender should be a rare event, but wars should end on a regular basis.

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Re: Surrender Changes
 

Nyx you can do that now just ask them to be a protectorate or to be subjugated to you. The terms of surrender are made by the stronger party. The weaker just has to accept or reject it. With the bug to these treaties now this won't work too well but if the bug is fixed just don't ask for total surrender if you don't like it, just ask for one of the other treaties. Now you may have to turn off mega evil empire for this to work. Has anyone had a protectorate declare war on them when the MEE goes off?

Re: Surrender Changes
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Taqwus:
Ah. I don't build many ships at all, ....It really should recognize ship cost or power when considering them for happiness...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't know if ship cost matters, but I do know that ships will only increase happiness for the system they are in. So, keep your super-ships for the real work, but also make a few cheap escorts in each unhappy system so the civilians can feel protected.

Re: Surrender Changes
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nyx:
I still want surrender to mean something other than "My nation ceases to exist." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Have you tried demanding a tribute, and making a peace treaty part of the tribute? IIRC, that will work.

Re: Surrender Changes
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Nyx you can do that now just ask them to be a protectorate or to be subjugated to you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh I know that I can do it, but the AI will never offer such terms when it's beaten and needs to get out of the war. It just keeps getting more and more angry. And it's nowhere near as intuitive to demand a trade in the form of a protectorate treaty in return for peace.

I've often tried demanding protectorate and subjugation treaties from the AI, but they are well over 10xs as likely to accept surrender as those two based on actual Messages sent in the game. I haven't looked at the data files to see how it calculates such things, I just know the effect in gameplay.

If I have glassed two systems and not lost a single ship the AI ought to be begging for mercy, not pissed off and rejecting offers of protection from me.

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Re: Surrender Changes
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nyx:
I've often tried demanding protectorate and subjugation treaties from the AI, but they are well over 10xs as likely to accept surrender as those two based on actual Messages sent in the game. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sounds like you're doing it as "Request Treaty" rather than "Demand Tribute." Try the latter; I think it works.

Re: Surrender Changes
 

Also the Mega Evil Empire setting may disallow them from acepting these treaties. They will either not accept them when they kick in or will the next turn declare war on you again because of that setting.

Re: Surrender Changes
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Sounds like you're doing it as "Request Treaty" rather than "Demand Tribute." Try the latter; I think it works.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I've tried both methods, and I even tried using the propose trade option where I bribe them into a protectorate treaty. And for the record I've never bothered trying to request anything from anyone once mega evil sets in. The numbers stand, the AI prefers to surrender completely over entering protectorate status regardless of what means I use to offer it.

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Re: Surrender Changes
 

Well looking at the politics file for one race (Xenophobes differ a bit in this file so your milage may vary) you need to have 6 times the AI's score for them to accept a protectorate, 8 times for a Subjugation treaty, and you need 10 times their score for a surrender to work so if this isn't working it is a bug and should be reported.

[This message has been edited by Tomgs (edited 20 January 2001).]

Re: Surrender Changes
 

The funny thing is, I have had AI's surrender that should not have, and the ones that should have, never do. I have to beat them into submition, often, more than not, obliterating many of their worlds and killing billions of their population before they will acknowledge my greatness.

I agree, it would be nice to see some changes. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Surrender Changes
 

I'm pretty sure this has been mentioned somwhere b/f but I feel this simple change would add alot of extra depth.

I believe in Alpha Centauri once a power arrives at the point of surrender or die, it would turn itself over to it's best allie instead of surrendering to it's aggressor.

Also one of my classic favorite games, Imperialism II, had a similar tactic in that if a Superpower tried to attack a Nuetral power, the Nuetral would offer to become part of the empire of it's Most Favored Allie in exchange for protection from the invading Superpower.

This system fostered a benefit to maintaining good relations w/nuetrals and also added the always interesting possibility of starting out attacking a seemingly weak empire and end up in a war w/a rather stronger empire. Made for some quick negotiations for peace.

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

Re: Surrender Changes
 

Yippey for me - I just noticed I made Corporal. When do I get my stripes?

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

Re: Surrender Changes
 

The original Reach for the Stars (not this new Version) had a similar system for surrendering. I once found myself with a planet on the other side of the quadrant because they were losing a war against a common enemy. That type of surrender would make sense and be a good addition to the game. If they have partners or have a military treaty with someone and are in danger of being exterminated then a merger with the stronger power would be a better option than surrendering to their aggressor.

Also xenophobic races should have a large chance to fight to the death because they would view a surrender as worse than death.

Re: Surrender Changes
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Yippey for me - I just noticed I made Corporal. When do I get my stripes?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Angry Officer: Private, what does three up and three down mean to you?

Private: End of an inning?

Actually, I have no idea where the heck that quote comes from except that its a movie.

And I did pass the bug report on to Aaron.

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Compete in the Space Empires IV World Championship at www.twingalaxies.com.

Re: Surrender Changes
 

I believe the quote came from Bill Murray in the movie "Stripes"

Re: Surrender Changes
 

Just for the record, I wouldn't surrender just because my enemy had destroyed many of my colonies and billions of my people. I just get really hacked off and start playing nasty - set mines everywhere, put attack satellites in orbit around their planets, build a cloaked sun destroyer (or more, if possible) and just generally go crazy. I start taking great satisfaction in glassing their planets at that point. (I had to do that to the Terrans in one game; we'd started out in the same system, and they destroyed not only one of my homeworlds, but multiple new colonies before I finally eradicated the little &lt;censored&gt;'s.

Re: Surrender Changes
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DirectorTsaarx:
Just for the record, I wouldn't surrender just because my enemy had destroyed many of my colonies and billions of my people. I just get really hacked off and start playing nasty - set mines everywhere, put attack satellites in orbit around their planets, build a cloaked sun destroyer (or more, if possible) and just generally go crazy. I start taking great satisfaction in glassing their planets at that point. (I had to do that to the Terrans in one game; we'd started out in the same system, and they destroyed not only one of my homeworlds, but multiple new colonies before I finally eradicated the little &lt;censored&gt;'s.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeh, but in real life people don't want to die, they don't want to see their friends & relatives die, they don't even want to see their houses get blown up. So, they only fight like that if they figure the other side is going to exterminate them anyway. People weigh the odds and if they figure they have a better chance of surviving reasonably intact by surrendering then by going down fighting, up goes the white flag. If their glorious leader sees it different, sometimes he gets fragged and sometimes he wakes up to find all the troops just left (like Richard Burton's Marc Anthony in "Cleopatra"). There are exceptions, of course, but that is the general trend.

Re: Surrender Changes
 

Nyx
I think the quote came from Robin Williams in Good Morning Vietnam.

Re: Surrender Changes
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Barnacle Bill:
Yeh, but in real life people don't want to die, they don't want to see their friends & relatives die, they don't even want to see their houses get blown up. So, they only fight like that if they figure the other side is going to exterminate them anyway. People weigh the odds and if they figure they have a better chance of surviving reasonably intact by surrendering then by going down fighting, up goes the white flag. If their glorious leader sees it different, sometimes he gets fragged and sometimes he wakes up to find all the troops just left (like Richard Burton's Marc Anthony in "Cleopatra"). There are exceptions, of course, but that is the general trend.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But they might well surrender to someone ELSE who (in their judgement) would let them preserve their identity more completely than the current enemy trying to conquer them. I agree that this is a very interesting feature of MOO that really ought to be included in SE's AI behavior. Some sort of assessment of "compatibility" should be included in the AIs thinking process so it has a chance of surrendering to another race when you demand their surrender and they realize they cannot win. They also ought to make "counter offers" of subjugation or protectorate when the ratio of their strength to yours is less than a certain level. The cost of conquering even a smaller empire by force can be high, and if you've got other enemies on your border who are in a bad mood the AI has a decent chance to squeak by that it never seems to even consider.



[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 23 January 2001).]

Re: Surrender Changes
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But they might well surrender to someone ELSE who (in their judgement) would let them preserve their identity more completely than the current enemy trying to conquer them. I agree that this is a very interesting feature of MOO that really ought to be included in SE's AI behavior. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Surrendering to an ally should not be allowed. Or if it is, it should not work as instantly and as completely as it does in the game, and it should be called something else. Let's pretend that during the war with Russia Afghanistan tried to become the 51st American state. The Senate would have thought it was a joke if you mentioned it to them. During the Napoleonic wars, had Prussia or Spain tried to surrender to England instead of to France, both the British and the French would have just laughed, you don't surrender to an ally, it's just not done. If you do try such behabvior, it's not called "surrender" which is a term explicitly referring to losing a war.

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Re: Surrender Changes
 

What they would probably agree to is something in between "subjugation" and "surrender", as they are today.

Of course, I also think that "subjugation" should mean more than just paying 40% of their income to you. It should be like a one-way military alliance, in which you see all their systems and can use their refueling depots, but not vice versa.

This new state in between "subjugation" and "surrender" would be like subjugation except that you basically control both empires. They are now an "autonomous region" or some such in your empire. You get 1/2 their resources. They still have a separate resource, research & intel pools of their own, but they have to give you any new techs they discover. They won't give you planets, ships, units or resources (beyond the 50% tariff). You can give them things if you want. Their diplomatic stance to the rest of the galaxy matches yours. You control their research que, production ques, etc... Their ships & units still use their graphics, but you control them. They now move during your turn, under your direction.

Re: Surrender Changes
 

SMAC had that. If you beat someone enough, or got far enough ahead of an ally, they entered a special diplomatic relationship called "submissive" toward you. They still existed and still had their turn, but they agreed with you in all things (until they got back on their feet or someone else crushed you).

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