More Neutrals
 

If more neutrals are created in the RaceNeutral directory would the game use them? I'd love to see more neutrals...

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"He's dead, Jim."-- Lt. Commander Leonard "Bones" McCoy |Chief Medical Officer / USS Enterprise (NCC-1701)

Re: More Neutrals
 

You can get 3 of them at the following link: http://www.se4hub.com/universalshipyards/

There is a zip with 3-4 neutral race in it. They are done by John Beech.

I used neutralrace # 10 to base my "Brachyura" on, along with the AI files that Mephisto used for the EA. I just tweaked (and renamed) these AI files to fit the "personality" of my new race. and re-colored the XiChung shipset to make a shipset for them.

the Brachyura aren't ready for prime time yet. I have to fix some backgrounds and some of the general AI file



[This message has been edited by pathfinder (edited 20 January 2001).]

Re: More Neutrals
 

Um...did you get the address right? The page won't come up for me...

------------------

"He's dead, Jim."-- Lt. Commander Leonard "Bones" McCoy |Chief Medical Officer / USS Enterprise (NCC-1701)

[This message has been edited by DirkHowitzer (edited 20 January 2001).]

Re: More Neutrals
 

I'll re-check but it is the one I use to go there.

OOOPPPPPSSSSIIEEE!
http://universalshipyards.tripod.com/

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/blush.gif

pathy gots losted

[This message has been edited by pathfinder (edited 20 January 2001).]

Re: More Neutrals
 

Lol...thx...

------------------

"He's dead, Jim."-- Lt. Commander Leonard "Bones" McCoy |Chief Medical Officer / USS Enterprise (NCC-1701)

Re: More Neutrals
 

You do have to add a bit to the .txt files to get them to run without errors. Just copy the missing parts from another neutral race. I have been using them since the demo.

[This message has been edited by Tomgs (edited 20 January 2001).]

Re: More Neutrals
 

[quote]Originally posted by pathfinder:
[b]You can get 3 of them at the following link: http://www.se4hub.com/universalshipyards/

There is a zip with 3-4 neutral race in it. They are done by John Beech.

I used neutralrace # 10 to base my "Brachyura" on, along with the AI files that Mephisto used for the EA. I just tweaked (and renamed) these AI files to fit the "personality" of my new race. and re-colored the XiChung shipset to make a shipset for them.

the Brachyura aren't ready for prime time yet. I have to fix some backgrounds and some of the general AI file [ END QUOTE]

The neutral races aren't created by John beech but by Ryan Dark ( vasudan and Shivans ) and me ( Fleye and Zjishizsh). Right now neutrals are far too weak in the game, I won't create more till this is fixed, they need some kind of bonus, right now they are yust easy prey.

Check out the other shipsets on universal shipyards by the way, the downloadable ones should work with the newest patch. There's some really great and original artwork on this site.



[This message has been edited by henk brouwer (edited 20 January 2001).]

Re: More Neutrals
 

I agree that the neutrals in this game are far and few in between with no real hope of ever becoming anything but cannon fodder for aggressive empires. *caugh* me.

I would love to see at least 10 to 15 neutrals per game complete with the ability to kick my but if they don't want me within there system.

Also, as a side note, I feel that it would be an added bonus if we had verying degrees of neturals. IE, ones there were far more advanced, (anceint race) and ones that are primitive. (pre space flight) This would add much needed depth to the neutral aspect of the game.



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"We've made too many compromises already, too many retreats! They invade our space and we fall back -- they assimilate entire worlds and we fall back! Not again! The line must be drawn here -- this far, no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done!" -- Patric Stewart as Captain Picard
UCP/TCO Ship Yards
http://www.angelfire.com/zine/cnchome/SE4/domBC_min.jpg

Re: More Neutrals
 

sorry Henk, I apparently misread the credits at the shipyard.

Re: More Neutrals
 

No problem,

About the first question in this thread:

"If more neutrals are created in the RaceNeutral directory would the game use them? I'd love to see more neutrals..."

You can ad as many neutrals as you like, you have to name the files neutralxxx_*_* were xxx stands for the number of that neutral player ( the ones in the game are neutral001 to neutral006 ) You can even put complete shipsets in these directories, and when properly named al ship pictures should be used in the game. The game only uses the default pictures for pictures it can't find in the neutral directory.

All this was tested a very long time ago in the first Version of the demo, so I don't know if it's still valid...

Re: More Neutrals
 

So you could mix and match various AI ships to simulate the neutral races buying old AI ships to put together a patchwork fleet...hmmm....the plot thickens;-)

NOW...the next question...is there anyway to force the game to set up a game with the exact # of neutrals you want? I know you can add regular AI player by just putting them on the player list but you can't add neutrals...

------------------

"He's dead, Jim."-- Lt. Commander Leonard "Bones" McCoy |Chief Medical Officer / USS Enterprise (NCC-1701)

Re: More Neutrals
 

Yeah, when you make a race in "new race" , it will use a generic AI script. But innorder for the computer to use it you have to click on a box that switches it to computer run, this little box is in the "general details" menu where you name the race/empire, its leader, its title, etc..

Re: More Neutrals
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atrocities:
I agree that the neutrals in this game are far and few in between with no real hope of ever becoming anything but cannon fodder for aggressive empires. *cough* me.

I would love to see at least 10 to 15 neutrals per game complete with the ability to kick my but if they don't want me within there system.

Also, as a side note, I feel that it would be an added bonus if we had verying degrees of neturals. IE, ones there were far more advanced, (ancient race) and ones that are primitive. (pre space flight) This would add much needed depth to the neutral aspect of the game.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Theoretically you could boost the power of neutrals by inventing special racial tech areas for them, and letting them start the game with these techs already available. It would be messy to duplicate big Groups of the components and facilities, but you could even give them the existing racial techs like Organic and Crystalline as "different" fields than the ones that AI empires use by copying the existing components and facilities and changing their tech requirements to the new field. Then the techs would not transfer if they were conquered. Unfortunately, there is no "automatic" random variation. Whatever you setup for a neutral is what they will be every time you meet them. It would be better if characteristics could randomly move around and make things more interesting.

Re: More Neutrals
 

I started messing with the stats for missiles and made some weapon mounts for them to use on ships, bases and weapon platforms. Mostly, it's range I'm changing. Actually, the damage is actually decreased for two of the ship seeker mounts. I made a "standard" mount that is 60% as big (30kt for CSM and Plasma) and decreased the damage a bit.

The weapon platform and base mods provide some increase in range and damage. Does range ever go above 20? (Yes, I'm being that nasty.)

Do the neutrals use the Default AI files? I changed some of the weapons there (defense base and weapon platform) to capital ship missiles. Hopefully, this will make them very difficult to kill unless you have heavy point defense.

Since I posted the idea for improving missiles (I'm also increasing the seeker speed just to see what happens) I'm hoping giving neutrals access to these weapons will help make them more difficult to kill.

I'll try to report back on what playtesting will do to this, game-balance wise... argh.

Just tried it using the maximum range. The seekers (CSM Vs) kept vanishing at about range 16 or so. Feh. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif

I'll try tinkering some more later, I guess.


------------------
--
"What do -you- want?" "I'd like to live -just- long enough
to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a
pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors
come with too high a price. I would look up into your lifeless
eyes and wave like this..." *waggle* "...can you and your
associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"

Re: More Neutrals
 

To correct my earlier post:

neutrals need the following .txt files: anger, fleets, general & settings.

and what Henke says abouts shipps is true too: if you don't put a shipset in, the games uses generaic sets..

OOppsie...wrong topic http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/shock.gif

[This message has been edited by pathfinder (edited 21 January 2001).]

[This message has been edited by pathfinder (edited 21 January 2001).]

Re: More Neutrals
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sinapus:
I started messing with the stats for missiles and made some weapon mounts for them to use on ships, bases and weapon platforms. Mostly, it's range I'm changing. Actually, the damage is actually decreased for two of the ship seeker mounts. I made a "standard" mount that is 60% as big (30kt for CSM and Plasma) and decreased the damage a bit.

The weapon platform and base mods provide some increase in range and damage. Does range ever go above 20? (Yes, I'm being that nasty.)

Do the neutrals use the Default AI files? I changed some of the weapons there (defense base and weapon platform) to capital ship missiles. Hopefully, this will make them very difficult to kill unless you have heavy point defense.

Since I posted the idea for improving missiles (I'm also increasing the seeker speed just to see what happens) I'm hoping giving neutrals access to these weapons will help make them more difficult to kill.

I'll try to report back on what playtesting will do to this, game-balance wise... argh.

Just tried it using the maximum range. The seekers (CSM Vs) kept vanishing at about range 16 or so. Feh. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif

I'll try tinkering some more later, I guess.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was thinking along the lines of special techs that would give them defenses against the strategic powers of Galactic level opponents. The "Change Bad Intelligence Chance" power is currently only used by a Religious tech facility. How about a facility for Neutral races only that gives them a 50 percent defensive advantage against intel attacks in their system? They only have ONE system after all. Call it the "small society" bonus. Being a small, insular race they are harder to infiltrate and sabotage. Some combat bonuses could be added with the "Change Combat" ability (also used only by a religious facility and the Temporal "Events Predictor"), on the rationale that they have a morale bonus from the fact that they are defending their HOME, the only system they have.

Giving them component techs is trickier. It's hard to justifiy little worlds having too many exotic technologies unless some unique things are added to the game just for them. They ought to be specially designed for defensive purposes, if so.

Re: More Neutrals
 

Good idea Baron. I created a racial tech tree for neutrals in which they had a universal colonization component so they could settle all planets in their homesystem at once when I first got the game. But back then I didn't know how to make them research and use it so I gave it up. Now that I do maybe I will take it up again.

What I would want the neutrals to do in general to protect themselves is to mount serious warp point defenses with tons of sats, mines, fighters and bases. I wish the AI in general was better at this, but neutrals in particular. It should hurt to break into a neutrals system that has had some time to prepare fixed defenses. Mines, satellites and fighters doesn't cost any maintainance and bases have 50% reduced upkeep so that's what neutrals should concentrate on imo. I have never seen the AI build a base at a warp point so I don't know if it can.

Re: More Neutrals
 

These are all good ideas, but you have to consider reality as well...I mean in the real world how long would a country like Switzerland/Cuba/Phillipines/Swaziland/etc...(small countries...Switzerland was actually neutral in WWII)...Last against the US or other large power if that country really decided that they wanted the smaller one. So don't give the neutrals to large a bonus.

------------------

"He's dead, Jim."-- Lt. Commander Leonard "Bones" McCoy |Chief Medical Officer / USS Enterprise (NCC-1701)

Re: More Neutrals
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DirkHowitzer:
These are all good ideas, but you have to consider reality as well...I mean in the real world how long would a country like Switzerland/Cuba/Phillipines/Swaziland/etc...(small countries...Switzerland was actually neutral in WWII)...Last against the US or other large power if that country really decided that they wanted the smaller one. So don't give the neutrals to large a bonus.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is true, of course. The real restraint on a ruthless conquering sort of empire is the diplomatic consequences of being too brazen about it. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif If the other AI empires would take notice of your behavior and dispute with you then the neutrals would be more survivable. And it doesn't have to be only "nice" AIs that stick up for neutrals. Another ruthless conqueror might just as likely say "Hey, that's MY turf" and threaten you for taking the neutral system because they want to take it themselves.

[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 21 January 2001).]

Re: More Neutrals
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
This is true, of course. The real restraint on a ruthless conquering sort of empire is the diplomatic consequences of being too brazen about it. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif If the other AI empires would take notice of your behavior and dispute with you then the neutrals would be more survivable. And it doesn't have to be only "nice" AIs that stick up for neutrals. Another ruthless conqueror might just as likely say "Hey, that's MY turf" and threaten you for taking the neutral system because they want to take it themselves. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


This is exactly how it should work. The diplomatic model should create grave consequences for beating up on neutrals.

Re: More Neutrals
 

Excellent ideas as usual...perhaps other ideas could be intituted as well(If this was ever considered by MM or the modders)such the AI's getting pissed of when you used biological weapons and such. You might recall that this was already done in MOO2.

[This message has been edited by DirkHowitzer (edited 21 January 2001).]

Re: More Neutrals
 

I designed a special tech for the Neutrals, but have not found a way to make the facility get used in game setup. Apparently something about the initial facilities on a homeworld is hardcoded. I created a new "Racial Ability" for a tech called "Neutral Society" in RacialTraits.txt:

Name := Neutral Society
Description := Gains access to Neutral Society Technology. NOT FOR PLAYERS! NEUTRALS ONLY!
Pic Num := 0
General Type := Advantage
Cost := 1000
Trait Type := Tech Area
Value 1 := 1
Value 2 := 0
Required Trait 1 := None
Required Trait 2 := None
Required Trait 3 := None
Restricted Trait 1 := None
Restricted Trait 2 := None
Restricted Trait 3 := None

(Note, I re-arranged/numbered the racial tech areas while I was at it.) Then I made the technology in techarea.txt:

Name := Neutral Society
Group := Theoretical Science
Description := The science of lore of small societies which survive in the larger context of galactic politics.
Maximum Level := 1
Level Cost := 50000
Start Level := 1
Raise Level := 0
Racial Area := 1
Unique Area := 0
Can Be Removed := False
Number of Tech Req := 0

Then I created a facility:

Name := Seat of Government Facility
Description := Central government of a neutral race.
Facility Group := Population support
Facility Family := 255
Roman Numeral := 0
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 68
Cost Minerals := 2500
Cost Organics := 5000
Cost Radioactives := 2500
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Neutral Society
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Number of Abilities := 5
Ability 1 Type := Spaceport
Ability 1 Descr := Acts as a spaceport for this system.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 0
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Change Bad Intelligence Chance - System
Ability 2 Descr := Strong sense of identity reduces success of enemy infiltration/sabotage by 50 percent.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 50
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Change Population Happiness - System
Ability 3 Descr := Strong sense of identity increases population happiness.
Ability 3 Val 1 := 3
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Combat Modifier - System
Ability 4 Descr := Clear command hierarchy and good morale makes for 20 percent combat bonus.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 3
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Ability 5 Type := Damage Modifier - System
Ability 5 Descr := Training and good morale makes for 10 percent boost in weapon effectiveness.
Ability 5 Val 1 := 10
Ability 5 Val 2 := 0

I then added the special ability "Neutral Society" to all of the neutrals. It works in that this facility is AVAILABLE to them when I look, but it doesn't get used in the initial setup of the homeworld even though I put an ability that it carries, 'Change Population Happiness' as the FIRST thing in the homeworld build queue. I can only guess that this setup is actually hard coded, as I said... &lt;shrug&gt;