Do the regular Empires do Stellar Manipulation?
 

Does that 'Not Connected' AI state make the AI make new warp points if you play in a 'not all warp points connected' game and the empire runs out of room to expand? Or is that only when they lose contact with a human player?

Re: Do the regular Empires do Stellar Manipulation?
 

"Not Connected" is an AI state and is not related to warp point status. It's the "catch-all" just in case the checks for the other states fail. And yes, the AI is smart enough, at least in the latest patch, to recognize when it is isolated and build and use stellar manipulation -- once it manages to research it.

[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 25 January 2001).]

Re: Do the regular Empires do Stellar Manipulation?
 

Playing a game where tech cost is medium and starting tech is low, has anyone ever seen the AI build ships with stellar manipulation components?

Do you remember how many turns into the game it was?

How about in games where you start with all technology?

Thanks!

Re: Do the regular Empires do Stellar Manipulation?
 

I've stolen designs for Stellar Manipulation ships, but never seen one actually built.

They are very expensive. So maybe the AI doesn't have enough resources available.

Maybe they should throw in one level of each resource producer into the research tree at various points instead of way down near the bottom.

Has anyone played with not all WPs connected and gotten a visit from one race or another?

Re: Do the regular Empires do Stellar Manipulation?
 

I destroyed a destroyer of the Texrak (Neutrals!) with an open-warp-component! Looking at their system, they had obviously opened a warp point although they never leave their system!

Re: Do the regular Empires do Stellar Manipulation?
 

It is good for hubris to confess stupidity now and again...

Typically, you pay around 15KT minerals per turn maintaining a ship with a stellar manipulation component. So, I thought I would be really smart and put one on a space station so I could get the 50% maintenance savings. Now... I will freely confess that I had, upon many occasions, tried to use my wormhole creators and gotten the message that I couldn't because I didn't have any movement remaining....

So, I had this plan to build a couple of base stations in one sector. The first space station would open the wormhole, and the second would close it. Thus, I could create a sort of DS9 effect.

So, I waited, and waited and waited. (I don't use the emergency build thing, of course). Finally, the wormhole closer came on line. Then, a couple of turns later the wormhole opener. Hurrah! I massed my ships to go through the wormhole. I powered up the stellar generators. I tried to open the wormhole. And it hiccuped! Sorry. No movement remaining.

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Do the regular Empires do Stellar Manipulation?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sinapus:
Has anyone played with not all WPs connected and gotten a visit from one race or another?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I played a "no warp points" starting map, and some of the AIs did research and build resonators. I think they built 'em too early, though--at least one of the AIs bankrupted itself paying upkeep on its resonator.

Re: Do the regular Empires do Stellar Manipulation?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by UmberGryphon:
I played a "no warp points" starting map, and some of the AIs did research and build resonators. I think they built 'em too early, though--at least one of the AIs bankrupted itself paying upkeep on its resonator.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When I first received SE4, I started by playing games with "no warp points connected". Depending on the size of planets you have in your starting system, it'll take quite a while to research up to Stellar Manipulation 3 (giving you the basic resonator (the 100ly one) and condenser to close points), in the neighborhood of 150-200 turns or so.

Basically, you can really hang yourself if you're not careful in how you use ships with stellar maipulation components (I typically begin with sticking either a resonator or a condenser on a frigate hull). What I had to do in order to avoid an economic crash is (turn 1)Send the ship to the edge of the system (assuming you don't click the "warp points can form anywhere in system" option) and open a warp point, (turn 2) head back to the shipyard and mothball the ship, to avoid being stuck with the enormous maintenance costs. Once I've build up a sufficient nest egg in resources, repeat as desired. I open warp points to every system I can reach with the particular class of resonator, then mothball the ship until I colonize as much as I profitably can (those monolith facilities really help on those sweet planets with lots of resources to extract).

At that rate, it takes quite a while before I can actually afford to keep my ships operating full time. Typically, I make a group of four ships (one with a resonator, one with a condenser, a ship with a repair bay, and a cloaked recon vessel with the best sensors and scanners I can afford). I typically keep two or three of these Groups active at most during the game against AIs.

Given my personal experience, I can see why AIs never seem to break out of their starting systems, since the ships just cost too bloody much when you're confined to the resources of a single star system. And they never seem to bother with Atmospheric Modification Plants to increase the number of facilities available on their planets, which you need (especially research facilties if you want to get the jump on everyone else).

In short, when it comes to these games, I get the tech first, and then either wipe out the AIs I come across, or, easier yet, just close the warp point and shut them out of the rest of the galaxy entirely until I'm ready to deal with them. Not very challenging at all, although I can build my empire unmolested.

Re: Do the regular Empires do Stellar Manipulation?
 

From what I have seen, the AI empires do not do stellar at all. They research it, but do not use it.

Now, on a game with no warp points, I have seen them use this technology. And brother do they ever use it.

But, on a regular game, I have never seen the AI use this technology.

Re: Do the regular Empires do Stellar Manipulation?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Str8_Gain:
What I had to do in order to avoid an economic crash is (turn 1)Send the ship to the edge of the system (assuming you don't click the "warp points can form anywhere in system" option) and open a warp point, (turn 2) head back to the shipyard and mothball the ship, to avoid being stuck with the enormous maintenance costs <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even if you don't click the "warp point can form anywhere" when you use stellar manipulation to create warp point you can still create them anywhere. That just means if there are warp point in the set-up they will only be placed on the edges. The other end of the warp point will still be on an edge of that system. I don't know what happens to the other end if "warp point can form anywhere" is selected because I have never tried that. Maybe then they will end up randomly placed in the target system?

Re: Do the regular Empires do Stellar Manipulation?
 

In my current game: Large universe, Clusters, not all warp points connected, with the mod-pack included:

The Earth Alliance is opening up warp points and maintaining vast fleets. They beat me to it's creation (I was researching weapons etc. to make sure I was ready once I opened a warp point) and through scouts I have established that they have opened around 5 or 6 different warp points to other clusters... very aggressive, and getting very big!

So the AI definitely uses them and doesn't always bankrupt itself.

Jason2

Re: Do the regular Empires do Stellar Manipulation?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jason2:
In my current game: Large universe, Clusters, not all warp points connected, with the mod-pack included:

The Earth Alliance is opening up warp points and maintaining vast fleets. They beat me to it's creation (I was researching weapons etc. to make sure I was ready once I opened a warp point) and through scouts I have established that they have opened around 5 or 6 different warp points to other clusters... very aggressive, and getting very big!

Jason2<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I recently concluded a game where I had all warp points connected. In that case, what I did was research weapons tech moderately (up to phased polaron beams/telekinetic projectors/etc.) to match everyone else in the early game, and then poured as much as I could to Stellar Manipulation.

Once I got the condenser at Stellar Manipulation level 3, I closed off all warp points leading to anyone else, to buy time to build a decent fleet with good weapons (your trade will definitely take a hit and you'll lose contact with other races, depending on what points you close, so be sure your economic house is in order). When I became sufficiently prepared, I took my Explorer Group (one frigate w/ resonator, one frigate w/ condenser, one destroyer w/ a repair bay, and a frigate w/ cloak, sensors, and long range scanners), teamed it with my attack fleet, and then jumped into the home system of whichever AI I wanted real estate from, and then closed the point behind me (and incidentally, bypassing all their minefields they have on their warp points). Once in, move to the other warp points in the system to close them (with proper minesweeping to protect your investment), and thus cut off reinforcement. Once the system became mine totally, then I'd open a point connecting it to my empire, and repeat the process.

The key is to get Stellar Manipulation first, or failing that, kill off any other empire that has it. Of course, I wouldn't suggest going straight for Stellar Manipulation level 7 and neglect weapons, shields, etc, but since Stellar Manipulation can be used as a great force multiplier, it may be worth it to research up to level 3, and then pour everything you got into weapons, shields, etc. Carefully take the measure of your enemies to determine what research paths to go on (which should be pretty elementary by now). With higher levels of Stellar Manipulation, you can keep your shipyards and staging areas further back from the front, and thus protect them better. Once you're ready, just warp them in to your area of operations.

Re: Do the regular Empires do Stellar Manipulation?
 

Oh, the frustration of building worm holes.

I sent four Battle Cruisers and two Carriers loaded with 104 Heavy Fighters each (naively) through a warp point and ran right into a mine field.

Then, I opened a wormhole from another system hoping to bypass the mine field. Nope, it opened the warp point right on top of the other one. This fleet of six Battle Cruisers ran into the mine field and also perished!

(Later, I did build a wormhole from a sector that looked a bit safer and took great delight in destroying every one of his planets.)

I think one of the beta testers said he was pretty surprised when the new AI opened a wormhole to his home system and sent a fleet of dreadnaughts, etc through. I can't wait!

Re: Do the regular Empires do Stellar Manipulation?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by raynor:
Oh, the frustration of building worm holes.

I sent four Battle Cruisers and two Carriers loaded with 104 Heavy Fighters each (naively) through a warp point and ran right into a mine field.

Then, I opened a wormhole from another system hoping to bypass the mine field. Nope, it opened the warp point right on top of the other one. This fleet of six Battle Cruisers ran into the mine field and also perished!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*blink*

How did -that- happen? Did the wormhole you create open up on top of another wormhole that had already been mined?

(Stacked wormholes do appear, in cluster quadrants at least...)



------------------
--
"What do -you- want?" "I'd like to live -just- long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I would look up into your lifeless eyes and wave like this..." *waggle* "...can you and your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"

Re: Do the regular Empires do Stellar Manipulation?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sinapus:
*blink*

How did -that- happen? Did the wormhole you create open up on top of another wormhole that had already been mined?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. The newly created wormhole opened up on top of an existing wormhole.

Re: Do the regular Empires do Stellar Manipulation?
 

In another thread, someone thought you had to leave the computer alone for a while before it started using its stellar manipulation ships.

This makes sense.

In my Last game, I loaded up a savegame, switched all the players to human control and checked out what kind of ships they had. I saw one race, the EEE, who had Resonator V's on destroyers on turn 170. By turn 220. They had seven of these ships. But I could see no evidence that they had ever used them.

I may try loading that game up and hitting End Turn 20-50 times and see if they start using them.

It would be really great if there was some way to coax the AI into building and deploying these ships against you. Maybe wait 100 turns without doing anything?

Re: Do the regular Empires do Stellar Manipulation?
 

For you folks that have seen the AI USE Stellar Manip... Are you using a Mod? and if so, which one(s). I am using some of the mods, not all. I have seen the AI BUILD ships with SM components, but they never seem to use them. Of course, the key word here is USE...