Phased Polaron too easy to research?
 

In every game I have played so far, I go straight for Phased Polaron before I put *any* beam weapons on the ship. In addition to punching through shields, they have a very good range. Plus, they seem quite cheap to research.

Do you think they should be more difficult to research? For example, do you think it would be better if you had to research every level of Anti Proton first?

I also think that since they punch through the shields, they should have some sort of drawback such as reduced range. I think it is just too easy to build ships equipped only with these fairly long range shield piercing weapons which took quite a good bit of damage.

Another question: What good are weapons like the ripper beam and other such weapons?

Can someone start up a game with all the tech turned on and design a ship with weapons better than the Phased Polarons? They just seem to be too good of a weapon.
I'm sure this sounds pretty naive to you SEIV gurus out there. But I haven't started playing with the AI bonus turned on yet and so haven't yet encountered any AI races with better tech ships than me. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Phased Polaron too easy to research?
 

I think alot of the weapons need to be balanced better. PPB's need to be a little weaker,and Anti-matter and Quantum torpedoes need to be more accurate in my opinion.

We have alot of weapon systems but we all use the same ones like PPB's because they are the best. So we don't really have alot a weapons to use because we have figured out the few that are the best.

I don't use special racial weapons,so I am pretty much limited to what I actually use on my ships and fighters.

I think we need more new conventional weapons,especially for fighters.

Plus if we make beam weapons less effective on planets and fighters,we will use planetary and specialty weapons like anti-fighter/sats torpedoes and missles if they are created in the future.

I'm bored with PPB's doing it all.
Each weapon should have a reason for using it,and a need to use it.



[This message has been edited by Emperor Zodd (edited 26 January 2001).]

Re: Phased Polaron too easy to research?
 

Yes, weapon balance needs quite a bit of work IMO. Its not a big deal as it can all be modded to taste, though.

It was one of the first things on my 'hit list' after my first few games. My data set has completely rebalanced all of the 'basic' weapons in the game. IMO, they all have their uses now.

If anyone is interesting in seeing the latest and greatest revision, lemme know. I guarantee that at least the weapons will be far better balanced than in the orginal.

Talenn

Re: Phased Polaron too easy to research?
 

Actually Organic races have better weapons than the PPB. The enveloping Acid weapon is great. I also usually use the PPB if I don't use a racial trait with weapons. At least untill I need a better range then I start researching other weapons. A PPB up against a full tech Organic ship is cannon fodder at least human against human. Even against the AI it can be very tough if they outrange you and do more damage per hit.

Re: Phased Polaron too easy to research?
 

I agree with Tomgs. Organic tech has awesome weapons. The Enveloping Acid Globule (I think that's what its called) on massive mounts has a damage of 500, a fire rate of 2, and a range of 8 and are actually quite accurate. To me, thats even more powerful than a WMG even if it seems the WMG's never miss. However, the PPB's skip shields and have decent range and fire rates. They also IMO are only good for early game weapons. Once the AI get's Phased Shields, they (PPB's) drop drastically in thier effectiveness.

I do agree that PPB's are very easy to research, but IMO are useless in huge galaxy, low tech games except to rush the first AI you encounter. However, that could definitely put you into position to be MEE in a hurry. Personally, I like to avoid PPB's 'cause they are such an advantage early on (its easy enough to 'rush' an AI as it is).

Re: Phased Polaron too easy to research?
 

Talenn:

I would like to see your data files. Would have a problem with just posting them in the mod section. I'm sure a lot of people sooner or later will be interested in balancing weapons.

Could you also by chance take a look at my update to the default ai race files, I would really like your opinion on them. Thanks.

Re: Phased Polaron too easy to research?
 

Have you noticed how you have to research all the way up to Shield Generator V before the next thing you can research is Phased Shield Generator I?

I'm shocked and dismayed that they didn't do something very similar with the Phased Polaron Beam.

At least the AI *does* at least research and use the PPB...

Re: Phased Polaron too easy to research?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rdouglass:
Once the AI gets Phased Shields, they (PPB's) drop drastically in their effectiveness.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes and no. Certainly PPBs stop being the best weapon by an order of magnitude, but they're so far in the lead early that they can lose a lot and still be one of the best weapons in the game.

I decide how good a weapon is by damage divided by rate-of-fire divided by size--"Damage per turn per kiloton". Even ignoring its special ability, the score of 1.6 (50/1/30) for a normal-mount PPB 5 is the best score for a non-racial-tech direct-fire weapon, and it even beats most of the racial-tech weapons. (I don't remember the score of a normal-mount enveloping acid globule, and I'm at work--anyone care to tell me?)


[This message has been edited by UmberGryphon (edited 26 January 2001).]

Re: Phased Polaron too easy to research?
 

However, it costs 200k research to get there. For another 140k you can have ripper beams whith a ppk value of 2.5 (again, ignoring the special ability and stand-off ranges) and the additional RPs spent are getting you advances in propulsion at the same time.

[This message has been edited by Tampa_Gamer (edited 26 January 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Tampa_Gamer (edited 26 January 2001).]

Re: Phased Polaron too easy to research?
 

In an earlier post, someone said that once the AI gets Phased Shields....

I have never seen Phased Shield on an AI ship. Has someone else?

I was under the impression that this was one of the flaws in the AI--that they never researched this.

I was kinda sorta hoping that my use of Phased Shields would turn the tide in my favor in my current game. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Phased Polaron too easy to research?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tampa_Gamer:
[b]However, it costs 200k research to get there. For another 140k you can have ripper beams whith a ppk value of 2.5 (again, ignoring the special ability and stand-off ranges) and the additional RPs spent are getting you advances in propulsion at the same time.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have never used the Ripper Beam. I didn't think they did that much damage or had that good of a range. Have you found them to be pretty effective?

Re: Phased Polaron too easy to research?
 

In my games the ai uses phased shields. I think the cause of the ai not using phased shields falls under one/or both categories.

1. Phased shields not put in the ai ship design files. If it is not specified in these files then the ai will not use those ship components.

2. Components.txt file, either it being misspelled or put in the wrong order in the same family. There has been problems with the engines that the ai used, I can't remember if shields fall under this Category as well. Hope this helps.

Re: Phased Polaron too easy to research?
 

I have seen many AI use phased shields. Of course, not in the early games - they just don't have the time to research them. I'm not positive, but I believe the AI has a much more "balanced" research regime than I do - I tend to focus on 2-3 specific areas, max it out, and move on to the next area(s).

UmberGryphon - I believe the normal mount for Enveloping Acid Globule is 100 (I too am at work and am calling it from memory).

And Raynor - I think the only purpose for Ripper Beams is a stepping stone to Wave Motion Guns. However, I see the AI building 'em all the time. Their range seems way too short for my taste - I think its only 2.

I do conceed that PPB's are a great early game weapon, but as many have said, the AI needs a little help at first to get going. Once they have about 50-60 turns without encountering a human, they become a much better challenge. That's why I don't use 'em (PPB's) and thats why I always play in a huge galaxy (250 systems).

Re: Phased Polaron too easy to research?
 

I have seen the AI use phased shields in v1.19-but not very often. The AI is using phased shields more often in the latest Beta patch! I had a pretty nasty suprise from the AI Last nite- when it opened 2 warp pts into my home systems and then invaded one of the systems with 10 dreadnoughts, 8 battle cruisers and 2 carriers, all had phased shields!

I think that the PB damage needs to be reduced a bit and the cost of researching them needs to be increased dramatically.

I also think the Shard cannon needs to have a 1 turn fire rate.

Some of the smaller weapons for fighters/troops need to be balanced. Several of the small weapons do the same type and amount of damage - but take up less space on the units.

Re: Phased Polaron too easy to research?
 

I hope we see some changes in the next patch that will balance these weapons better.

Re: Phased Polaron too easy to research?
 

So I mentioned that PPB 5s had a damage-per-turn-per-kiloton of 1.6 in a normal mount. I went home for lunch, and I looked up some other weapons. Enveloping Acid Globules 5 have a value of 100/2/40=1.25, and Wave Motion Guns 3 have a value of 140/3/70=0.6666.... Telekinetic Projector 5s have a value of 70/1/40=1.75, but even in late game the computer has enough obsolete non-phased-shielded ships so that I don't wish I was psychic in endgame just for TkPs.

So PPBs can be gotten early enough that they can be your first direct-fire weapon, but have enough punch that using them all the way through to endgame is completely reasonable.

Re: Phased Polaron too easy to research?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rdouglass:
I have seen many AI use phased shields. Of course, not in the early games - they just don't have the time to research them. I'm not positive, but I believe the AI has a much more "balanced" research regime than I do - I tend to focus on 2-3 specific areas, max it out, and move on to the next area(s).

I do conceed that PPB's are a great early game weapon, but as many have said, the AI needs a little help at first to get going. Once they have about 50-60 turns without encountering a human, they become a much better challenge. That's why I don't use 'em (PPB's) and thats why I always play in a huge galaxy (250 systems).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First, how do you play in a huge galaxy?

Second... how many turns do most of your games Last? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

When I played without any AI bonus, it seemed like I finished up most of my large map games in under 200 turns. Once I got PPB's, max sensors, max ECM and Battlecruisers, I just started opening wormholes into enemy systems and systematically destroying their planets. I never saw the need to research anything higher.

I guess 200 turns is still early game? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Phased Polaron too easy to research?
 

I think each weapon should counter at least one defensive item and each weapon should be able to be countered by one defensive item, sort of like rock, paper, scissors.
This would force you to constantly modify your designs base on your opponents strategy. You don't really have to do this now.
I would guess that everyone's dream ship would contain many similiar components, which is a shame given the vast number of choices available.

Re: Phased Polaron too easy to research?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rdouglass:
...However, the PPB's skip shields and have decent range and fire rates. They also IMO are only good for early game weapons. Once the AI get's Phased Shields, they (PPB's) drop drastically in thier effectiveness.

I do agree that PPB's are very easy to research, but IMO are useless in huge galaxy, low tech games except to rush the first AI you encounter. However, that could definitely put you into position to be MEE in a hurry. Personally, I like to avoid PPB's 'cause they are such an advantage early on (its easy enough to 'rush' an AI as it is).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What other non-race specific weapon would you have me use?

I don't see any weapon *anywhere* on the tech tree that is as effective as the PPB.

Post your ship design, and we can all run it through the simulator.

That the PPB can penetrated non-phased shields is a nice benefit before the AI gets Phased Shields. But the real tragedy is that the PPD does more damage per turn than weapons that lack that particular special ability.

Re: Phased Polaron too easy to research?
 

I don't see how requiring level TWO in physics, and then costing twice as much per level as the anti-proton beam, makes the Phased-Polaron Beam "too easy to research". It looks to me like you'd be taking quite a risk if you were to rely on getting that before you got into conflict another empire. Especially if you want to have a good selection of other technologies before then. If you make it more difficult to research, btw, you make things more difficult for the Sergetti, who use this as their main weapon. A slight adjustment to the damage might not hurt, but the change to phased shields neutralizes their main advantage so the 'special ability' is only a temporary, unlike other weapons like the shard cannon or the time distortion burst.

[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 28 January 2001).]

Re: Phased Polaron too easy to research?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
I don't see how requiring level TWO in physics, and then costing twice as much per level as the anti-proton beam, makes the Phased-Polaron Beam "too easy to research". It looks to me like you'd be taking quite a risk if you were to rely on getting that before you got into conflict another empire. Especially if you want to have a good selection of other technologies before then. If you make it more difficult to research, btw, you make things more difficult for the Sergetti, who use this as their main weapon. A slight adjustment to the damage might not hurt, but the change to phased shields neutralizes their main advantage so the 'special ability' is only a temporary, unlike other weapons like the shard cannon or the time distortion burst.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The main problem with the PPB is that it is an ULTIMATE weapon.

You say it cost twice as much per level as the A-P? Well, look at what you get for that:

A-P IV: 20,20,15,15
PPV IV: 60,55,55,50,50

So, for *just* twice as many points, you are getting THREE times the damage. Plus, it has a longer range. And... AND... at the beginning of the game and against dumb empires who don't research Phased Shields, you are actually doing SIX times the damage.

Compare the damage of the PPB to the A-P and then the small PPB to the small A-P. Small A-P starts out doing 10 pts of damage whereas the small PPB does 2,2. IMHO, the small weapons are reasonably play balanced.

Can you think of another race-generic weapon which does as much damage as the PPB V? I don't know of one. The Wave Motion Gun and Graviton Hellbore fire just once every three turns. So, the PPB still does more damage. In fact, there just isn't a weapon worth researching above the Phased Polaron Beam. So, once you research it, you can stop spending points on weapons research. That makes the PPB DIRT CHEAP!!!

So far, I haven't had any trouble staying alive long enough to research PPB V before I even start building capital ships instead of fighters.

Once again, even if the enemy has Phased Shields, the PPB still does more damage than any other weapon in the game. (excluding race-specific weapons once again)

Re: Phased Polaron too easy to research?
 

There are still some reasons to research other weapons especially if you have the organic trait. The range of the PPB isn't the best in the game (however it is very good) and range can be as important as damage in some cases especially tactical battles. The range issue could be the "fix" for the PPB what if the range was only 4? Wouldn't this offset somewhat the power and early use of this weapon vs some of the other weapons? Maybe add a few levels to the top of its research to get it up to 6 range gradually if you don't want to eliminate it completely. This way it would be a bit more balanced but might still be a great weapon after a bit more research points.

Also a better comparison between PPB and the APB is this:
APB VIII 30/25/20/15/15/15
PPB I: 30/25/25/25/20/20

so at level 1 its still better in every way than an APB VIII and goes through normal shields also as a bonus.

P.S. I hate to say this because I love the PPB the way it is but it is an awesome weapon right now.

[This message has been edited by Tomgs (edited 29 January 2001).]

Re: Phased Polaron too easy to research?
 

Raynor, I always play with race-specific traits, but even if I did not, the range factor discourages me from using PPB's. Even if an AI had PPB V's and I had WMG's, I could stay ouside his range and just hit him every 3rd turn (in tactical combat). That is the generic weapon I would suggest. (A side question - does the WMG get a 60% to hit bonus like it did in SE3??) Also IMO missles are a good choice if you want to decimate the AI (I kinda' feel this is cheating tho and don't use them often) They get a range up to 16. I personally feel range is a big factor unless of course you use strategic battle. I rarely ever do - I like the micromanagement of tactical. Of course, if you're playing Simultaneous, you don't get the tactical combat option, so PPB's may be a better choice - I don't know.

As to the huge galaxy question, I read it on another post and did it. I remember something like editing the Systems.txt file and changing the line from 100 to 250 (I think 255 is the max). If I'm wrong, someone please correct me. Of course, if you do this, you'll probably want to get someone's system names file or you'll end up with a lot of systems with no names and that becomes confusing.

And as to game length, my games easily Last 300-400 turns. EPIC GAMES!!!

[This message has been edited by rdouglass (edited 29 January 2001).]

Re: Phased Polaron too easy to research?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rdouglass:
Raynor, I always play with race-specific traits, but even if I did not, the range factor discourages me from using PPB's. Even if an AI had PPB V's and I had WMG's, I could stay ouside his range and just hit him every 3rd turn (in tactical combat). That is the generic weapon I would suggest.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess I just prefer weapons that fire every turn. It makes the battle seem to go faster.

Mainly, though, *not* researching anything else besides the PPB lets me spend more on other research areas.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
As to the huge galaxy question, I read it on another post and did it. I remember something like editing the Systems.txt file and changing the line from 100 to 250 (I think 255 is the max). If I'm wrong, someone please correct me. Of course, if you do this, you'll probably want to get someone's system names file or you'll end up with a lot of systems with no names and that becomes confusing.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
And as to game length, my games easily Last 300-400 turns. EPIC GAMES!!!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow! I'm doing mop-up work in my latest game, and it is turn 220. And this has been a long game! (Playing in a large galaxy)

Thanks for the info!