Realism (of a sort)
 

It seems to me that when you make a ringworld or sphereworld it should not have any mineral resources. After all, you built it, right? Why would you bury minerals just so you could mine them again? You could make it fertile so it should have good organics, and if the term "radioactives" really means energy sources in general, then these worlds should have high Ratings for their solar collection capability. At any rate, I would like to customize my own games this way. I remember seeing a way to set a planet's initial resource levels in the data files, but now can't find it again. Can somebody tell me where it is?

Re: Realism (of a sort)
 

Well the settings.txt in the Data file has this but it is for all planets. I don't see any way to change it just for ring and sphere worlds.

Re: Realism (of a sort)
 

The two I've built both had Ratings of 150% in all three areas, so there must be something that sets these values rather than assigning them randomly like other planets. Maybe it's not in the files?

Re: Realism (of a sort)
 

Well it depends on how a ring or sphere world is built. The only feasible way that I can see is that you build large gravity generators in a grid, and attract matter to them( asteroids, space dust and such). These fill the spaces between the grid lines, and provide most of the material for the worlds. They can then be mined.
Now, even then the idea is farstretched. I love RW's and SW's, but in reality getting the material for them is always going to be problematic. After all they are HUGE. (The present Versions actually allow each inhabitent to have at least a continent size area to themselves, even when they're fully populated. They could easily hold trillions of people. )
However, given that you have built one, however implausible the building process, I see no reason why you can't generate resources there. They are not just a very big ship after all. They are worlds. Massive worlds.

-Aegis

Re: Realism (of a sort)
 

The other thing that comes with being a huge structure is a huge gravity well - which means extraneous material is constantly being pulled in from space as well. Maybe the mineral miners are pulling in "space debris" as well...

Re: Realism (of a sort)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aegis:
Well it depends on how a ring or sphere world is built. The only feasible way that I can see is that you build large gravity generators in a grid, and attract matter to them( asteroids, space dust and such). These fill the spaces between the grid lines, and provide most of the material for the worlds. They can then be mined.
Now, even then the idea is farstretched. I love RW's and SW's, but in reality getting the material for them is always going to be problematic. After all they are HUGE. (The present Versions actually allow each inhabitent to have at least a continent size area to themselves, even when they're fully populated. They could easily hold trillions of people. )
However, given that you have built one, however implausible the building process, I see no reason why you can't generate resources there. They are not just a very big ship after all. They are worlds. Massive worlds.

-Aegis<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


wow. check out the big brain on Aegis, thats something I had not really considered in their construction before. if that were the case, in a limited resource game, could you mine the world out, then just flick on the gravity generator again to replenish the resources? would it crush all your existing facilities if you did so? would something that big have enough gravity by its bad self without even needing generators, and woud it not take advantage of all the stars gravity and the naturally occuring ring of dust / debris in the stars orbital plain? hmmm...

..and if there is artificial gravity (or a spining ring) could the facilities be built on the inside while resources pile up on the outside?

Re: Realism (of a sort)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Puke:

&lt;snip&gt; would something that big have enough gravity by its bad self without even needing generators, and woud it not take advantage of all the stars gravity and the naturally occuring ring of dust / debris in the stars orbital plain? hmmm...

..and if there is artificial gravity (or a spining ring) could the facilities be built on the inside while resources pile up on the outside?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uh, Puke, I mentioned that possibility in my post below - something the size of a ring/sphere world would certainly create its own gravity well, which could drag in all kinds of debris. Not to mention the incredible amount of surface area available to catch meteorites and comets and other space debris.

And while we're on this subject: the "infinite resources" available on naturally occurring planets is just as unrealistic as infinite resources on a ring or sphere world.

Re: Realism (of a sort)
 

A ring or sphereworld would indeed be massive, but don't forget that it would also be a dispersed mass. The gravity well would reach far out into the solar system, but would be rather weak at any given point. I doubt it would create a noticeable influx of matter.
To restate my original point, say you have a valuable asteroid. Would it make more sense to haul it directly to a processing facility in zero-g, or to use it to build a ring/sphereworld, and then have to mine it back out of the artificial dirt and expend fuel to haul it back out of the gravity (artificial or otherwise) of the world? The problem is not that it couldn't be done, but that it would be insanely uneconomical.

Re: Realism (of a sort)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DirectorTsaarx:
And while we're on this subject: the "infinite resources" available on naturally occurring planets is just as unrealistic as infinite resources on a ring or sphere world.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

or as unrealistic. as far as mineral resources go, its not terribly likely the mantle of an earth sized planet will be tapped out. that is unless those mineral mining facilities are greenland-sized boreholes or something, and if you were to work that into kilitons, oh-my-f'ing-god. but then where would the planet be after you mined it out? gone? smaller? asteroid debris? I dont see any 'realistic' limit to mineral or radioactive extraction, especially considering things like quantum technology. organics might get hard to come by after the top layer of a planets crust was stripped, but the whole issue is game ballance and play style rather than realism. oh well.

Re: Realism (of a sort)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Puke:
I dont see any 'realistic' limit to mineral or radioactive extraction, especially considering things like quantum technology. organics might get hard to come by after the top layer of a planets crust was stripped, but the whole issue is game ballance and play style rather than realism. oh well.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

to elaborate, why not some sort of matter conVersion? there is already resource conVersion tech, so why are minerals rare? in theory you could take any kind of matter and turn in into an equal (atomic) mass of another type of matter using the same prinicpals, with some loss to entropy. so if you had a medium sized planet, and you did nothing but convert its mass into mineral resources, even if you lost 50% to entropy, whats 1/2 the mass of the earth? more than most empires produce in a 200 turn game? probably. that sort of sends play ballance out the window, but why wouldn't a galactic empire with super-technology be able to convert a small moon into a million or so warships in a year or so? realism? where? and who's Version of super-science do we use for it?

and why do we need mineral / rad storage facilities? come on now! find an empty planet or moon, and stick it there. or put it in solar orbit for heaven's sake! what's it going to do, walk off? sure someone might try to take your 100,000KT of minerals thats orbiting Bravo Seti III, but I dont think volume is really an issue here. I would gladly dedicate 1 planet to resource storage, and I would sure expect it to be unlimited storage if a WHOLE PLANET was dedicated to it. MT Everest has got to way a bit more than 100,000 KT, and it is not even a significant portion of the earth's surface. I wont even GET INTO planetary cargo vs. cargo ship capacity.

pardon my little rant.



[This message has been edited by Puke (edited 30 January 2001).]

Re: Realism (of a sort)
 

Just a thought, right now the ability to convert one material to another (minus an effeciency hit) is unlimited. In effect you can process 1-2 million organics into minerals (if have them) into minerals in one turn with one plant ... would think that is a huge plant. If limit what can process from x to y at a plant then have to build more to get a decent conVersion operation going. Another point is that in one of the special areas get that solar convertor capability, i really think that should be a generally developable capability, with maybe the special race char given just better effeciency.

jsnider

Re: Realism (of a sort)
 

I have converted 3M each of Organic and Radioactive into Minerals on the same turn the question that would be on my mind is how did those 4.2M (6M x 70%) KT get to all of those worlds all around the galaxy so that they could complete their building in a 10th of a year? Instantanious transmission? Putting limits on the resource converter would make sense but the ability to convert resources is already pretty advanced so other abilities could be assumed also.

Re: Realism (of a sort)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tomgs:
Instantanious transmission? Putting limits on the resource converter would make sense but the ability to convert resources is already pretty advanced so other abilities could be assumed also.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


resource converter you can explain that way. a better question is: how do the resoruces from a storage facility on planet A get to the construction queue on planet Z in .1 years? Kan-Bon manufacturing? does J.I.T. finaly work in the far future of SE4?

Re: Realism (of a sort)
 

Yes but its the same question if my one resource converter is on one side of the galaxy with storage containers all over the galaxy how does every single resource get to that converter get converted then get to a planet on the other side of the galaxy in 1/10th of a year. Its FM (freaking magic).

[This message has been edited by Tomgs (edited 30 January 2001).]

Re: Realism (of a sort)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tomgs:
Its FM (freaking magic).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


yep. any way you look at it, its pretty hosed. I dont know if i would prefer managing half-quadrant-long supply lines, or FM better. probably have complaints either way i guess.

Re: Realism (of a sort)
 

If you haven't played Stars!, go get the shareware/demo at http://crisium.com/stars/stars/index.htm and experience shipping three kinds of minerals around in all it's glory. It's not uncommon to have hundreds of freighters zipping around the place with minerals. A micromanagement nightmare if you have a couple of hundred planets. Still a very good game though, but taking your turn in a advanced pbem game can take quite some time. Especially if you want to maximize your production which means you have to ship around minerals so they are where they are needed all the time. It can be automated with the very advanced cargo carrying system but before you have set it all up to your satisfaction you need to keep tabs on it personally.

I'm no big fan of the Stars! approach because of the MM, but I'm not to fond of the SE4 approach either because of the FM. It's kind of like choosing between two evils...

Re: Realism (of a sort)
 

Puke: I like the idea of space-borne resource storage; I think I've seen other people request that (and I've posted it myself, as a way to make bases more valuable; imagine being able to build resource storage starbases around your homeworlds...).

Jubala: careful about using MM to refer to micromanagement; don't forget SE4 was created by Malfador Machinations, aka MM... (hmmm - a subliminal message, maybe?) http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Maybe one way to make the resource storage more "realistic" is to give each colony an innate storage capacity (I think SE3 gave storage capacity attributes to each construction facility, but I think I prefer colony-wide storage, since not all colonies have factories/farms/extractors). You could also add storage capacity to the shipyard facilities, to represent "stock" items. Then, rather than having to imagine resources being produced, then sent to storage facilities, and then sent to construction queues (or directly from the factories to the construction queues), we have a system that keeps a certain storage amount on each colony, and the "invisible" supply lines are merely replenishing that stock as required. Probably this could be managed by allowing storage capacity on each colony equal to three to five turns worth of construction (6,000 to 10,000 of each resource based on the standard colony construction rate of 2000 each resource per turn). Shipyards would have to provide enough extra storage capacity to make up the difference (i.e., a Space Yard II builds at 2500 each per turn, so it should store 500*3 [or 500*5] or 1500 to 2500 of each resource).

The space yard storage could be created just by modifying the existing data files. Adding planetary storage would be trickier...

Hmmmm... I think we're straying from the original post's topic, but at least we're following the title of the thread ("Realism (of a sort)") http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Re: Realism (of a sort)
 

Putting limits on the capacity of a resource converter is good thought. You'd think that a physical 'facility' with a definite size would have limits, wouldn't you? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Resource storage for ships/bases, research and intelligence point generation for ships/bases, and a "habitat" ability that lets a population in a component GROW like it does on a planet. These three things would allow space-living races (since remote mining is already in the game). We keep hoping that MM will get around to these things. The bug fixing is still occupying almost all of the programming time.

[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 30 January 2001).]

Re: Realism (of a sort)
 

DirectorTsaarx:

Yeah, I know and I thought about when writing the post but I eventually I didn't care since everybody should understans what I was talking about anyway. Besides, the abbrevation MM is generally accepted as standing for Micro Management. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/tongue.gif

Re: Realism (of a sort)
 

If you have the resource converter tech, you also have the Ultra recycler thingamybob facility.

With this little building, you can build fleets of VERY expensive ships, mothball them indefinitely and then scrap them for 80% or so of their purchase resources. Seems like a good deal on orbital storage. Also leaves the mothballed ships vulnerable to attack / capture by enemy forces.