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What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
Dom I. was a very good game, and very unique on the strategy market. Dom II. looks very good as well, but I am very disappointed, that there will be no diplomacy again.
Diplomacy adds a lot to all strategy games, making alliances, exchange troops and territories resources etc, are a major part of all strategy games. The question is: WHY there wont be diplomacy in Dom II? It would be awesome to have it...dont tell me that Illwinter cannot script a good diplomacy AI! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif [ September 21, 2003, 15:00: Message edited by: Mortifer ] |
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
Because it's all about holy war.
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Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
There is a little chunk of diplomacy in Doms II : you can define in scenarios which nations are friends. This will prevent the AI of striking at a supposed ally, and for the player, until they attack (if they choose too) the given AI, they will have not to fear any attack.
I dont know aside that if something else has been done, perhaps you can end a war against an AI by sending a high enough bribe. Can be coded in a patch I suppose (if they want!) |
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
I too thought that there should be diplomacy (alliance making), but then I got to thinking...with every nation being led by a Pretender to Godhood, and only one can become God, then that does make it a holy war....there is no room for alliances....
Really if you think about it, it does make sense....I wouldn't make an alliance with someone I KNEW wanted me dead....sure, the "alliance of common enemies" may be valid, but still....when that person wants me dead, no matter what...and then throw in the affects of religion....it makes sense that there is only total war.... The mixing of religion with alliances shouldn't work...and in multiplayer, you can make your alliances...just nothing formal... |
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
Cpbeller,
I disagree with you : even if on "Holy" war and with only 1 "god" to be left, you can prefer ally with some to fight others, in order to be able to defeat thereafter your former ally ! ;evilgrin: No, the absence of a diplomatic model in Dominions is just a "we got no resources for that" effect - and it's only lacking in SP. But I only play SP for the moment, so I miss it ! |
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
not quite PDF... the problem of having no diplomacy rules in MP is that you cant move thru your allies territories. This can be circumvented with various means, but still it is a bit a pain in the rea...
realm http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif lack of diplomacy is partly a problem of IW resources, and partly a design decision from the authors. I dont think we will ever get something on this topic http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
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Here you should be able to make alliances, also the AI should be able to make AI-AI alliances, that would make the game lot more interesting. |
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If you are in a race for godhood you are not willing to risk subVersion of you divinity. For any reason. Ergo, no diplomacy. |
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
I think that a minimal dose of diplomacy would be nice, all those reasons some of you invent against "any" diplomacy aren't that convincing..
What for example would do a sensible god http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif against Ermorian threat ? Ally with some other to deal with it... If this in turn cause new problems, he can always change side and declare war on his former ally ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
but we are talking about a game of world-wide holy war....if every nation in the world (real-life world) was so invested in a particular religion (ex, every nation in the world an opposing nature of Muslim and Jewish), you would not see them joining forces in any way....both religions are so excluding of other religions (like the religions of Dominions), that they don't allow (true and trustful) alliances with one another.
Even within their own religious nations, there is constant war....the Shiites vs. the Sunni, Turkey (I believe) vs. the Kurds....in the Old Testament of the Bible, the two Kingdoms of Jews vs. each other.... That is why I can believe in the Dominions world with no true Diplomacy.... Now, I understand you will not agree with me....but this is what my thoughts on it are....i love diplomacy (working models in a games vs. the AI), but in Dominions, it just makes sense to me that there is none... |
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
Well, Holy War or not, you guys dont get the point.
Just because the concept of the game is about a war, there should be dimplomacy. Gods, warlords, emperors, who cares?! Diplomacy does make a lot of sense in all strategy/war games, regardless of the concept. Since we have territories to conquer here, diplomacy could be a nice addition....... I am sure that lot players would agree with me. |
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
but why change the concept? that is my point...I think illwinter has done a superb job in making this game....diplomacy or not....sure, it would be nice if there was diplomacy in the game....but I don't think it has to have it to be successful....that is my point....and, the no-diplomacy "fits" in the game....that is why I think it still works....
a game of civ3 should have it...but not dominions doesn't need it.... who knows...perhaps if illwinter makes more money with this one, they can add some diplomacy in the next installment, if they decide that they want it....but...again, this game works without it....and it makes sense with the concept... you say "holy war or not, the game needs diplomacy", i disagree...it is a game of holy war....therefore, the game doesn't need diplomacy.... And I really would hate illwinter to change the "concept" just to put in a diplomacy model....I really like the religious theme in the game.... |
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Most religions are peaceful and do not indulge in holy wars. However if the faith is threatened they might react (the followers at least). Just as if someone attacked your house. Religion has been used to legitimate hostilities, but is rarely the underlying reason of a war. Greed, megalomania and fear of your neighbor are. In a fantasy world the God is not as aloof as gods of this world. Perhaps the point of faith is lost when you can actually see your god, but fear or loyalty in a manifest god should be enough to gather armies intent on conquering the lands of heathens if this was the outspoken will of said god. In general, diplomacy is a means to an end. You could argue, as M. does, that Gods should use it as well as humans. I agree. In multiplayer this is often the case. Dominions was designed as a MP game and this is the main reason there is no SP diplomacy. I have never played civ 3, nor any SP game of diplomacy for that matter in a very long time. The most recent one that I can remember is MOO2 and I was not very impressed. In Dominions there is peace until war breaks out. Eventually hostilities cease. You can not know if your enemy is at peace with you, but this is as it should be. If your enemy said that you were friends it would take some time for you to trust him. No removed 'war' tag on his forehead so to speak. We have given diplomacy some short thoughts, but felt that other matters were more interesting. If we come up with some good solutions we might add it in a later patch, but as I said, we have no real experience of how a good diplomacy game should work. I prefer the simple and uncertain war/truce/peace situation of Dominions to a stupid diplomatic AI that you can fool or abuse. If there is diplomacy you must feel that it is a person you negotiate with. Otherwise it gets annoying and the game gets boring pretty quickly. |
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There are games with awesome dimplo AI...that you cannot abuse. If you cannot abuse it, its hella fun in any games... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Dont get me wrong guys, I can live without diplomacy, BUT my point is, that IF Dom II. would have a good singleplayer dimplo AI, that would ADD A LOT TO THE GAMEPLAY! That is my only point.. [ September 21, 2003, 23:34: Message edited by: Mortifer ] |
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
I find that far too often a really bad diplomatic AI makes things worse than they were before. (AoW anyone?) And the time that it would take to make a good enough diplomatic AI for dominions...which would be hard I'd imagine...would detract from other aspects.
I just have bad images of invading my allies undefended border. Plus the whole uncertainty thing works well...the computer is your "friend" only so long as it does not benefit him to invade you, just like any human player. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif And it is certainly MP intended...thats why theres simultaneous PBEM possible. [ September 22, 2003, 00:44: Message edited by: LordArioch ] |
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
Eh lol, than what is that sentence on Shrapnels site? "1) The strongest AI we have EVER seen!"
If the AI is really that good, they can make a decent diplo AI as well, I guess. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Anyways I understand your points, still I say that a good diplo system adds a lot to any games. If the diplo AI is really good, you cannot abuse it. [ September 22, 2003, 08:56: Message edited by: Mortifer ] |
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
*sigh*
Have you actualy played Dominions I? It's peace until either you or AI attacks, and there will eventualy be a "peace". Why is it so hard to understand that its a conceptual thing? |
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
Yes I played with it....I understand all things about the game concept, it is you who dont get my point. You say you cannot make truces or alliances even in Holy War? The best example is the Crusades. Those nations who were involved in it, lived in peace before and after it. Its all about diplomacy.
So if you ask me Dominion is more like a strategical deathmatch. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I think a strategy game with a diplo system is lot better, than a 'go and conquer' game... I like the idea that you can set up alliances in the editor at least. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
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Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
So if you attack an AI, or the AI attacks you, there will be no more peace, am I correct? I didnt remember, I played with the game long time ago.
A few final words.: The concept of the game [holy war] shouldnt wipe out diplomacy. Its still acceptable that there wont be any kind of diplomacy, but as I said, it would be lot more fun to make alliances, exchange troops or territories. Of course this would require a decent diplo AI. Perhaps as an addon, Illwinter should try to add something like that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif It would be an awesome addition... |
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
you misunderstand me....
I agree...a good diplomacy model would be good....but, in this game, I don't miss it...in Civ series, I would... but I just don't really miss it... If, they put one in that works...GREAT....that will just add that much more to move it closer to fantasy tbs perfection...but, "I" don't miss it... |
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
I think there is two issues : diplomacy, and sharing of same space. I dont care a dime about diplomacy in MP, but I would have really appreciated to have an order which would let the troops of my ally move thru one of my province without triggering a combat with the units I have there. This, I miss a lot.
the problem of not having that is that the game is more compartimented by physical positioning of players that most other games. You wont have choice, and you are forced to interact with your neighbors, be it peace or war. |
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I havn't said much on this issue because I don't think that a game like Dom really needs anykind of SP diplo model. The holy war theme leeds easilly enough to the belief that the pretenders would never grant any kind of authority to each other, at best they would just ignore the others until they had the time/resources to directly challenge them. I do understand the Machiavellian attatude of doing whatever you can to acheive your end results, but for the sake of gameplay (SP anyway) the simple approach seems to work. That said, it shouldn't be that difficult to add some sort of an 'attitude' setting that allows the SP to see what the reletive attitudes of his neighbors towards him is. Of course the attitude doesn't have to mean anything, but it would be a nice cosmetic touch perhaps. As you can gain intel on provinces where you have dominion or spies, add to the info the relative attitude of the province toward your nation. At least that way you'd know if the other nation was seething at you, or merely annoyed, or whatever. |
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
Well guess what! I seen the best AI in old KOEI games like the Romance of the 3 kingdoms VI. It had some awesome diplo AI. There was a table what showed you, that the AI players like you or not. [there were more attributes, so for example if you sent lot of gold they liked you more, but if you attacked a country, and the AI liked that country, your reputation was decreased as well...sorta like in civ3...but it worked better in that game...and tons of more stuff in that game..like a joint attack with the AI on a province etc! It was fantastic.
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Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
Dominions 2. + diplomacy = That's what we need! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
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Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
Interesting idea. Diplomacy can be very good and fun, IF the diplomacy AI is good enough. If it's crap, it can be exploited.
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Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
I'm going to have to chime in on the 'forget diplomcy' side... partly because I've seen more strategy games ruined by poor diplomacy than I've seen improved by it, but also because I don't think it suits this game very well.
One huge problem with allowing you to move through your allies' territory in Dominions is this... what's to stop you from moving your Prophet and your Pretender all over your so-called ally's territory in order to subvert their dominion (or just sitting on their capitol for that matter)? You could conceivably destroy a nation you supposedly had an alliance with this way... and while a human player would recognize what you were doing and break the alliance, how would a computer player tell the difference between this exploit and 'accidental' interference you might cause from just being nearby? |
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
That's a good point BoP, an excellent reason for why only one nation should be allowed per province (seiges and sneakers non withstanding).
However, it would be nice to have some basic options or information on relations. It would be nice to be able to declare (from your side) intentions vs. another empire. Non aggression, hostilities, holy war. This setting could influance your population along the boarder with the nation to increase production (while decreasing income) or other effects. It would also be nice to be able to offer bribes or swap territories (only where you have more dominion I'd imagine), things of that nature. I agree though, that unless the devs have the time and resuorces to approach diplomacy correctly it's best to be left alone or for the MP games |
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
I think there should be an option to pre-assign your forces to not attack enemy forces, and if both sides had this activated, no combat would ensue. However, if only one side had this activated, there would be a battle as usual.
I think diplomacy on larger scale should not be implemented. It is actually very intriguing to not know what your neighbouring nations think of you, allowing you the freedom to discover their schemes through espionage and your clever thinking alone. |
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
A good diplomacy system would raise the quality of the gameplay.
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Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
One question:
Why? What do you need diplomacy for? As for a side note, i am getting increasingly worried the about the direction where Dominions II is being slowly steered. |
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
I think that diplomacy can be awesome, BUT ONLY if its really good. A bad system can ruin a game.
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Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
Yes, but why?
The "diplomacy" i have experienced has been computers whining something from me and then attacking me if i won't agree, or the other way round. And that is, from Civ 3. Diplomacy haven't added much anything to the games i have played. It just lets you to abuse the "poor" AI. |
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
Well yes, if the diplomacy AI is bad, you can abuse the AI. The civ3 diplo system is good, the diplo AI is moderate, and can be abused.
If you want to see a decent diplo system, get some old games like RotK 4. or 6. You cannot abuse the diplo AI there, in fact its adding a lot to the gameplay. |
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
Rigth then, what does it add to gameplay?
[ September 28, 2003, 14:07: Message edited by: Nerfix ] |
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SP : add variety to the game, as the player woul dhave to manage his relations with the others, say keeping peace with a nation while warring another etc ... But the AI diplomacy has to be good else the player will be able to easily abuse it. In MP it's simpler : it'll allow players to give passage or join forces in war, without changing much the diplomatic aspects that are anyway handled by Messages and agreements. I'd be glad to see some simple "diplomatic features" be available in MP, but suppose it'll be too difficult to implement properly in SP until Dominions 3 : Alliance of the Gods http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ! |
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
At first when this subject was raised I was thinking that diplomacy just wasn't what Dominions was about, and to add it would mess with something that works just fine…
…but I think I'm beginning to agree that it would be cool if there was diplomacy for single player games at least. Here's why - how many times have you been about to attack one of your neighbours when another suddenly decides to attack your flank with 200 summer lions (for example)? Pretty soon you're fighting a 2 front war against 2 powerful opponents. Now if that were to happen in the real world the first thing I'd be doing would be to try to negotiate some kind of truce with one of my neighbours so that I could fight my battles one at a time. I would gladly pay up magical items (nothing too powerful) and gems for a reprieve. Dominions already has the capability to trade items, gems and money between players. I guess at the most basic level you could have an indicator of how nations are feeling toward you (through spies, scouts) which could be manipulated up by gifts etc. and down by you attacking them/getting too close. Plus which different AIs could be more or less aggressive. Even as thin a diplomacy as this I think would be a nice feature for single player - and to be honest I think I wouldn't even want much more of a full-blown diplomacy. What do the developers think? Does this sound reasonable? Desirable? Possible? |
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
I already can see how one negotiates with all the AI's and kills them with Dominion...
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Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
Nerfix, you can NOT abuse a well scripted diplo AI. Do not think about civ3. As I said the diplo system is good there, but the diplo AI is far from good, that is why you can abuse it!
A good diplo AI will 'think' just like the battle AI. AI and AI will sign treaties as well, do not forget about that. I remember when I played with RotK, sometimes I had a huge 4 allied AI team on me, and on my allies. There were lot of options to please the AI, like giving gold, marriage, etc. but lot stuff decreased the value of your relations, example: You attacked an AI A, and AI A was peaceful with the AI B. Than AI B begin to hate you, and you cannot make him friendly just by gold and items, you were forced to stop the war etc. As I said, it CAN be awesome, and raise the value of the gameplay greatly, if its scripted properly! We all know that the Illwinter team can script very well, so... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif [ September 28, 2003, 15:22: Message edited by: Mortifer ] |
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
I would like to see a nice diplomacy system + AI. If it is possible....if no...oh well.
[ September 28, 2003, 15:43: Message edited by: MStavros ] |
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
I hate chiming in late, but this is a major issue for me as well. I really hope that Illwinter will put some diplomatic functionality into the game eventually.
It is my understanding that in Dom II that gateway and other movement spells now only work between labs. This means that in multi-play you will have to attack the person next to you even if that is a bad idea. In Dom I if there was a clear leader, the smaller nations could negotiate some level of cooperation to further their interests. In Dom II if there is no way to cross anoter nations area, and the movement spells are gone, it will reduce diplomatic options even lower than Dom I. Even if "there can be only one" it still stands to reason that nations will cooperate when it's in their best interests. By affording no diplomatic options IW is limiting player interaction, and player interaction is half the fun of multi-player. I like seeing more options, not less. A good diplomatic system would do nothing but enhance the game. Players could always turn it off if they didn't like it. |
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I agree about Diplomacy, too... free movement and formal peace treaties would be nice... SP diplomacy would be a huge bonus, too. -Cherry |
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Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
Yer, I love this idea too! Please add some kind of diplomacy with a later patch! Hrm, if the AI will be good enough to work with it perfectly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
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Im also for more instead of limiting options. Im disturbed to hear that about transport spells. ALL transport spells or just the army ones? If its all of them then it does major damage to some of my favorite strategys for some of my favorite races. Not so much in attacking but in setting up multiple hot-spots all over the map. Scouts find a weak corner, call wind or wild there to take the province, setup castle/lab/temple in a good spot in that area. Rinse and repeat. There are ways to get a mage or priest somewhere besides the early transport spells but it will slow things down terribly for races that already have enough problems (or did in Dom 1) [ October 15, 2003, 13:17: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ] |
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
Quite a few uses of diplomacy come to mind.
- Allowing free passage through an area. Perhaps only along a path, 'tho, or in specified provinces? - Requests for assistance. GalCiv's one of the only PC games that I know of in which an AI ally will ask for help when it's in trouble (in contrast to demanding tribute). - Demands for tribute. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Has to be handled carefully; nations which give tribute should not provoke war, and should be entitled to live without further provocation in turn. - Sharing of map. Partial or whole, hm? The ability to lie here could be amusing, too. - Sharing of scouting reports, e.g. current estimates of enemy army sizes. "Our scouts report that... Caelum scouts report that..." et al in the province information. Perhaps should have a "we're lying; exaggerate/minimize by this much" slider. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif - Gem trading/item trading. An item/gem exchange might be pushing it, 'tho. ("Fire gems up 0.05 to 1.85 Astral, Caulrons of Broth down to 30 Astral, et al"). Heh. An ongoing gem-trading treaty could help, e.g. every turn A sends a certain set of gems to B in exchange for a similar allotment. - Perhaps agreements on future targets? e.g. if two nations could both soon conquer a number of independent provinces between them, deciding who takes who to eliminate the chance of accidentally starting a war. This could be supplemented or enforced by a non-aggression pact which would cause mutual withdrawal rather than a battle if they do both attack the same. Could also be stated as "sphere of influence". A lot of this might be fairly hard to do, without resorting to the usual "AIs gang up on Humans/main threat" deal. Some of the mechanics would still be helpful for MP, e.g. not having to manually type out army estimates on a shared foe. |
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
AI gang up? maybe. All games are different. I mean when you play a game and starting over, the next game will have a different situation, sometimes you can gang up with other AIs, sometimes the AIs will gang up on you, sometimes you won't notice any gang ups.
You have a nice list there. A good diplo system would be awesome. If Illwinter want to add something new, they must think about 2 things: 1. The weapon / armor system 2. The diplomacy system PS. there was another game, with this AI request when he is in trouble: The good old Romance of the 3 Kingdoms series by KOEI. As I said those games had the best diplo model ever! |
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