priests spells?
 

what will be the spells available to priests in Doms II? I found strange that so few were availables, and that each faith got the same.

Will we got an area divine armaments, with varying effects depending of the magic of the pretender? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: priests spells?
 

Fires of Faith sounds like a priest spell...
Oh, and for those who haven't played Dominions I, Dom I had:
Banishment
Blessing
Sermon of Courage
Divine Armaments
Fanaticism
Sacred Blessing
Holy Avenger
Smite

Unholy spells, i'm not sure about the list, i havent played Ermor for a while(In Dom I, only Ermor and a single summon had Unholy magic...)
Unholy Strength
Unholy Protection
Wrath of The Sepulchre
Anathema(a fun spell...)
Mass Version of U.S
Mass Version of U.P
Mass Version of WoTS

[ September 23, 2003, 14:48: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

Re: priests spells?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The priest are not intended to be AD&D clerics. There will be a few more theme specific spells for certain nation themes, but these are analogous to the bless effects of ordinary priests or the undead boosters of unholy priests in dom 1. Also the varying bless effects in dom 2 will also serve to differentiate various faiths.

Re: priests spells?
 

But i think you have changed the unholy spells a bit...
I mean, i have seen an early Dom II pic with a C'tissan Priest with Unholy Magic...(i believe it was called "Tomb King")

Re: priests spells?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That would be one of the theme specific changes I metioned, in this case for the Ctissian theme Desert Tombs.

Re: priests spells?
 

It's a theme spell. Only C'tis priests on one particular theme can cast it (don't remember what is the theme called).

Re: priests spells?
 

Lol, we posted at the same time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: priests spells?
 

But C'tissan won't have the "Wrath of Sepulchre", riiight...?

Re: priests spells?
 

Royal Blessing. Similar spell different name.

Re: priests spells?
 

Ah good.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: priests spells?
 

not quite the subject of the thread, but about game balance, have you not found that caelian weapons traversing etheralness was not a bit too much?

Re: priests spells?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The magic nature of caelian weapons was so powerful largely due to the propensity of experienced players to rely on seasonal spirits. The seasonal spirits are now more expensive and hopefully will not be quite as dominant on the battlefield as they once were. Furthermore elementals of all sizes now costs gems to summo,n so lesser air and fire elementals will be scarcer, once again decreasing the importance of caelian weapons.

Re: priests spells?
 

Hold on, you could summon elementals WITHOUT gems in Dominions I??!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

No wonder I saw tips on some sites telling how fight air elementals.

Now all those Posts I was reading make more sense. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: priests spells?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah, the lesser elementals didnt cost anything and the greater just 1 gem. It used to be popular strategy for caelum to field multiple mages that would cast summon air elemental under the cover of storm, grounding most other fliers and rendering almost all misiile fires ineffective. If you had a dozen or so High seraphs you could churn out massive amounts of air elementals in battles, combined with the storm spell to protect the mages you had a very mobile and very effective strike force that was very hard to counter. Played well you could handle most battles without suffering any losses. Of course there were some counters and enemies that would require a greater concentration of forces or a modification of the tactics, but the basic strategy was both very powerful and cost effective.

Another previously popular tactic whose power is somewhat reduced is the so called supercombatants, powerfull commanders equipped with shields or spells that would cause an attack on anybody that struck them, such as the charcoal shield or the spells astral shield or fireshield. A powerful commander equipped with the right items could reap hundreds of kills in a single battle, they still can but due to changes in the strikeback spells it should be a bit riskier to the supercombatant to just wade into hordes of enemies.

Re: priests spells?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I wonder if their armors are/were immune to all the "rust" spells... Tell me, how i'm i playing Caelum wrong when i don't find it so overly powerfull nation?

Re: priests spells?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Because you are biaised toward them. We had discussions about this, you, other players and me. There is nothing more to add, as you wont change your mind. So to each his opinion. I cant help notice that strangely, your prefered race is Caelum.

Re: priests spells?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The magic nature of caelian weapons was so powerful largely due to the propensity of experienced players to rely on seasonal spirits. The seasonal spirits are now more expensive and hopefully will not be quite as dominant on the battlefield as they once were. Furthermore elementals of all sizes now costs gems to summo,n so lesser air and fire elementals will be scarcer, once again decreasing the importance of caelian weapons.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have problem finding the explaination logical. In essence you are telling us that Caelian weapons are less an advantage, because the targets where they could apply their supremacy (compared to other weapons) are more potents but less numerous (because costlier). I would say that his render the problem at least as acute as before.

If a summer lion cost 5 gems now and not 3 as before, or if elementals (any type) cost one gem at least (and not zero), then the ability to have 4 times more chances to hit them because you are Caelian and not any other nation, render the Caelian weapons at least as valuable, and grossly overbalanced than before. And even if you encounter those magical beats more rarely. Because when you encounter them, it wont be in skirmishes as in dominions I, but in major battle where players commits the best.

Also, a point that your forget, is that many players use body etheral to boost their units. There is nothing hard-core or 'trick of the guru master ' here, I know that a bunch of players will protect with etheralness their most valuable troops. Take for example Ctis (poor Ctis I would say). The shaman can cast BE on their best units (the blessed serpents at first, then summoned behemots). Thats nearly a common combo (in competitive pbem, in solo I wont bother optimizing like that). Caelian weapons will here too render body etheral useless.

Anyway, I know that you have set your mind on this, so I will move to another subject.

Re: priests spells?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Interesting. How have you changed the "strike back" effects?

-Jasper

Re: priests spells?
 

Originally posted by Pocus: <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">My point is that the situation where the caelian weapons is an advantage is less common than it was in dom 1.

Re: priests spells?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In dom 1 the strikeback effect would set in before the attack was resolved, meaning that weaker troops often would not get a chance to land a blow before they died or where stunned. Now hordes of weaker creatures can land their blows even if it kills them in the process. We also thoguht about adding a small fatigue penalty after each strikeback but we will wait and see how this works out first.

Re: priests spells?
 

"My point is that the situation where the caelian weapons is an advantage is less common than it was in dom 1. "

yes. but 10 x 5 and 5 x 10 gives the same result.

Less occurences, but stronger impact when it happens.

but I knew you had your mind set on this http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Can I ask for the Relief and howl spells now, where they modified a bit?

Relief is cheap, and basically allow the mages on the battlefields to cast spells without leftover fatigues for the first 5 rounds (if you have some 2-3 nature mages, like druids).

Howl is problematic, not because of the wolves attacks, but because of the not so intelligent targetting of friendly mages. They will cast nether darts on a nearby wolf, killing 4 comrades in the process.

[ September 23, 2003, 22:03: Message edited by: Pocus ]

Re: priests spells?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Targeting AI is improved I think this is true of the spell targeting AI as well. I'll have to get back to you on that though.

Re: priests spells?
 

I edited my post Johan, couldnt resist to put a Last ditch counter argument for Caelian weapons. Feel free to be angered http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

From previous discussions I know that doms II AI is better at targetting as many problems were revolving around that, so I think the howl problem is somehow fixed by this.

For reliefs, well lets say that less druids (in doms II if I recall) = less reliefs I suppose.

Re: priests spells?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In dom 1 the strikeback effect would set in before the attack was resolved, meaning that weaker troops often would not get a chance to land a blow before they died or where stunned. Now hordes of weaker creatures can land their blows even if it kills them in the process. We also thoguht about adding a small fatigue penalty after each strikeback but we will wait and see how this works out first.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Interesting as well.

This will especially weaken Fire Shield and Medusa's stoning, as huge hordes can attack such foes when their damage shields kill attackers (where you are usually limited to only adjacent attackers).

I hope you're carefull with adding a fatigue cost, as even 1 fatigue per strike back will make the shields unusable (at least under Dom 1 mechanics).

Actually, what's always bugged me here is that huge hordes of foes can attack damage shielded foes at all (stepping over mountains of their comrades bodies). Why not change damage shields to kick in after all of a sides units have moved -- so that only a limited number can attack someone with a damage shield each turn. This would weaken the effect of damage shield, and seems more believeable.

-Jasper

[ September 23, 2003, 22:21: Message edited by: Jasper ]

Re: priests spells?
 

>My point is that the situation where the caelian weapons is an advantage
>is less common than it was in dom 1.

I'm sorry for this naive question but could this effect be linked to the temperature too, like ice armors ? Exemple : if your caelians fight in a +2 or +3 cold province, they get "magical" sharpened weapons. But if they fight in a warmer climate (say, cold +1 or warmer) their lances do ordinary damage only. Just a suggestion (it could be like that already, I dunno).

Re: priests spells?
 

There seems to be some misunderstanding here. You can't just fly to enemy commanders or magic Users and kill them with ice swords simply because there is no longer command to fire or attack commanders or magic Users. Best thing you can do is order flyers to attack rear troops, but they will attack troops - not commanders. So I see no problem with Caelum at all - they are much weaker in Dom II.

Their ice swords are good against nations who use air magic (like Vanheim or Man) but nations like Ulm or Marignon are their worse nightmare, especially if Ulm player uses Drain 3 domain. In fact, Caelum gets their behind kicked regularly by those two nations.

Also, Caelum has ground troops (non flying ones) that act as heavy infantry, but they have ice armor that is even better then Ulms in Cold 3 province, but is like light armor in Heat provinces, so heat affects their armor, not weapons.

Re: priests spells?
 

Well, the Air Magic-C.W relation is that Air Magic offers Air elementals with the dreaded etherealness, and C.W's tear trough etherealness.
But since..*rant about how all elementals cost gems and that you need to keep bringing the gems to mages and have big piles of them because the mages will use them for something stupid like removing fatigue or casting Wrathfull Skies instead of summoning elementals, even if you have scripted them*, that propably won't be so much of a problem.

The magic weapon-drain scale relation must be something new...

Oh BTW, did you know that wards cost the same as in Dom I but only protect part of your troops?

[ September 24, 2003, 14:26: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

Re: priests spells?
 

yes, and that the battlefield Version still exists (to my displease I would say). Just hope its a level 8 spell, needing 400 fatigues at least.

Re: priests spells?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Misunderstandings happen, that’s why we can talk - so we can understand each other better. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Just don't take any of this as some sort of assault on you because it is not. I'm just trying to clarify this question since I'm able to see the end product and give you accurate info on some of its specifics.
Here we go. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
You can help your troops tremendously if you cast some other spell as well. You have zounds of spells with earth magic that increases protection and magic resistance of troops, nature spells that improve both resistance and protection, fire spells that will hurt attackers (and do some major damage on the battlefield) etc. So I really miss a point here. Why would I rely on etherealness spells against Caelum if I know that Caelum weapons ignore it. I'll use some other protective spells and summons who are far more effective then seasonal spirits. All it requires is change of tactics and there are some even cheaper and better methods of protecting your troops. Etherealness is just one of possible protections (and not even most powerful because earth magic surpasses them by far in that area). So these weapons don't unbalance the game, they just make you use different tactic.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I didn't point out a relationship between bypassing ethereal and drain, but relationship between Ulm and Caelum in which Ulm doesn't care about Caelum Ice weapons (they could use rocks and sticks for all they care with their armor), doesn't care about flyers who will only get killed faster with their weak protection and their only weakness being magic which DRAIN reduces significantly. Ulm and some other nations are perfect example how these weapons don't affect them and thus there is no reason to say they are "overpowered".

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">They have wingless who are no better then standard light infantry (hp 9 prot 10) and excel in only slightly greater morale. Temple guards are good but cost 20 gold and 43 RESOURCES and can be produced only in main castle. You won't see much of them simply because you cant produce lot of them. Also they have 18 protection in normal temperature that is nothing special comparing to other heavy infantries that can be produced both faster and in other castles as well. Their ground force is not so powerful as a result but at least they have it (don't get me wrong, they are good). And again you put an example against spirits, which are by far not the only summons or cheapest summons or most powerful summons. I don't know how it was in Dom I but here they don't play large role in battles. If there is major battle I will use more powerful summons like Tiamat, Kithironic Lions or swarm you with weaker cheaper units that don't consume supplies (magical or undead).

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think the problem with "misunderstanding" start somewhere here (bolded text). Where did you read that they are more potent? They just cost more so you can't swarm the battlefield with them and forces you to use other units, summons and spells in combat.

[ September 24, 2003, 15:38: Message edited by: Daynarr ]

Re: priests spells?
 

Tiamat?
Dominions I had spell "Voice of Tiamat", but you speak about a summon...

Re: priests spells?
 

Tarrasque, I presume. There is no summon Tiamat spell.

Re: priests spells?
 

You are right, Tarrasque. Sorry. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

Re: priests spells?
 

I think there is also Blessing of Tiamat global spell. Allows ALL units in the world to enter sea.

Re: priests spells?
 

Nope, the spell is called "Thetis Blessing", atleast in Dom I...

[ September 24, 2003, 19:56: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

Re: priests spells?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">thats a south france mythological monster by the way. If I recall well, it rampaged the countryside, then returned to his lair for several years.

Re: priests spells?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">thats a south france mythological monster by the way. If I recall well, it rampaged the countryside, then returned to his lair for several years.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And was finally lured into a city by a virgin of great faith and brutally slayed. Women - the bane of monsters.

Re: priests spells?
 

"It was the beaty that killed the monster"
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: priests spells?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Right again. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif
I wont be posting about spells before reading their correct names in the manual anymore.

Re: priests spells?
 

you know what Daynarr? You are almost convincing! I think I will hold my opinion on this topic until I have played some thousands hours in doms II (roughly 2 weeks, yes I have a portable time distorter).

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thank for taking time to respond. In doms I, there was not much high quality protection spells which were castable by small mages. Body etheral is one of the most powerful, as it divides by 4 your chance to be hit against mundane troops, and it asked for a little astral 1 mage only. Then you had some earth spells which acted on a group, and then it moved to big spells which asked for much more expertise, like mass regeneration, or battle luck.

Early, to protect efficiently precious units, BE is the best. Now if you tell me that there is new possibilities, why not. I'm happy to know that most magical schools can now have protective spells (I include a fire shield dealing damage in this Category)

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I suppose you are confident in what you say http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . In doms I, even in Drain 3, a group of high seraph would make short works of Ulm, even with the added 30% fatigue (or is it 60%? never mind, Ulm was creamed by a same gold cost Caelian army composed of mages).

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">dunno if Temple Guards are weakened in Doms II, but they not only had a 18 prot, but also the blessing bonus, and a 13 or 14 natural defence. All of this added (with etheral bypassing) led to TG capable of butchering any other unit, same gold cost wise. Now that TG are limited to the capitol (or is to templed provinces?) then the problem will be lessened. But beware the numbers, with for example a mere 4 differential between attack and defence, you have either 80% of hitting your enemy, or 20% chance of being it by him. So the balance is fine tuned here, and TG with 24 prot (their armor in icy provinces) and 14 or more defences are really nasty.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">exact. I browsed the thread, and Kristoffer said that spirits were costlier, but never spoke of being more powerful. My mistake.

Thanks again for the time.

[ September 24, 2003, 21:20: Message edited by: Pocus ]

Re: priests spells?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Right again. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif
I wont be posting about spells before reading their correct names in the manual anymore.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">*EgoBoost catchet*
My precioussss EgoBoost!
I'm the 1337's lurker there ever was!
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ September 24, 2003, 21:21: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

Re: priests spells?
 

What are "divine titles"? You know you can't escape "Eyes of the Lurker"...
2003-09-24
* New Windows sound setting, dsound or waveout sound driver.
* Easier to get your full allowance of divine titles.
* More divine titles and fixes to some existing ones.
* See divine title on unit info screen.

2003-09-23
* Maps are now stored in a seperate folder.
* AI gets divine titles too.

Re: priests spells?
 

---quote
There seems to be some misunderstanding here. You can't just fly to enemy commanders or magic Users and kill them with ice swords simply because there is no longer command to fire or attack commanders or magic Users. Best thing you can do is order flyers to attack rear troops, but they will attack troops - not commanders. So I see no problem with Caelum at all - they are much weaker in Dom II.
---

I dont know who does not understand the other. Perhaps thats both of us. Caelian weapons are nasty because they pass etheralness. I dont care if my mages cant be attacked directly, because most often than not your etheral units are not your mages, but either seasonal spirits, or in case of astral nations any big unit which would receive a body etheral from a mage (a shaman, witch hunter, whatever). As of now you could help tremendously your units by casting etheralness on them. Except that against Caelum your are toasted.

---quote
Their ice swords are good against nations who use air magic (like Vanheim or Man) but nations like Ulm or Marignon are their worse nightmare, especially if Ulm player uses Drain 3 domain. In fact, Caelum gets their behind kicked regularly by those two nations.
---

I dont understand the relationship between the ability to bypass etheral, and air magic or a drain scale. Can you elaborate?

---quote
Also, Caelum has ground troops (non flying ones) that act as heavy infantry, but they have ice armor that is even better then Ulms in Cold 3 province, but is like light armor in Heat provinces, so heat affects their armor, not weapons.
---

Yes, this is already there in doms I. Ice armor effectiveness depends on heat. Also they have Wingless or Temple Guards, which are an hell of a soldier. For example 4 temple guards kill 12 fall bears in neutral temperature. Try to do that with 120 gp worth (in doms I TG cost 30 gp apiece) of any other units, be it Emerald Guards, Knight of the Holy Chalice, Warden, or what ever you want. You cant surpass TG, just because their caelian weapons is the insult which add to the injury.

Re: priests spells?
 

That's a brand-new extra-crispy enhancement. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

In a nutshell, your Pretender God will be given divine titles after its name based on the powers you define for it upon creation. There are, according to one post, about 200 different titles, so there's not much worry about them growing stale for awhile. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

They're mainly for flavor, really, but they add quite a bit of that. They also have the side effect of letting you get a glimpse into the kind of powers enemy Pretenders have, and that's rather slick.

Re: priests spells?
 

Ooooh, that sounds good...
I must say that this game might as well be the best fantasy TBS ever. And yes, i have played MoM, but it didn't feel so great. Perhaps i don't have the nostalgia...

Re: priests spells?
 

dom II. wont be the best, it will be different than the others, also very unique I must say, this is why I cant wait to play with Dom II.

Re: priests spells?
 

no, I agree with Nerfix...no other fantasy strat game compares even with Dominions...Dom2 will be even better....NOTHING will compare...