Depopulation
 

One thing I've often wondered about in Dom I (and whether it might be different in II) is the issue of depopulation. I never participated in a long pbem, but I'd expect that by the end, players are fighting over a nearly dead world. There are an awful lot of ways to kill off the local populace when you consider pillaging, Murdering Winter, patrolling for $, Ermor's dominion, etc.

So a question for the vets: did the world start feeling empty towards the end of a long game, and how did you feel about it, if so?

Re: Depopulation
 

I would like to see more spells focusing in augmenting the population of a province locally (you can do it with Gift of Nature's Bounty, but it's a global enchantment).

Also, if raising taxes lower the population, low taxes should do the inverse.

Re: Depopulation
 

Depopulation was mostly a problem if Ermor was one of the nations in a game. I have seen many games where players crank up their growth scale to get increased populations in their home provinces.

The dominion of Ermor is no longer destructive by deafault, but there is a destructive pangaean theme, so provinces left barren are probably about as common as before.

Slightly off topic:

Population might decrease due to high taxes in Dom II.

To reduce micromanagement patrolling, taxes and the order scale have been remade. The order scale now directly effects the income. High taxes and successful patrolling reduces population making high taxes a short term policy and not something every player must master to stand a chance of winning a game.

High tax - patrolling was tedious and unbalancing. Only vets with high ambitions of winning could stomach the micromanagement issues of patrolling.

Now high taxes are a short time measure. We hope that this is a good solution.

Re: Depopulation
 

nice issue to raise Truper. It is true that in doms I you have many population killing spells, but few (one, a global) which do the reverse. I wonder if doms II is a bit more gentle with the poor farmers and workers... I like to be able to reverse a process (is it akin to the fear of death, doctor?). In doms I for example, if you 'liberate' the wasteland which constitute Ermor, you are left with a barren land, without hope of any reconstruction, and despite a growth +3 factor (because the growth is a % bonus of increase, and dont give you a base increase of say 300 pop a turn). Whats more its even stranger when you read your dominions description : it is written that the lush of nature can be seen everywhere, and that harvest is done 4 times a year, but ... nobody live here!

to answer more specifically your question, in dominions I, with growth +3, you can raise your population slowly.

Treebeard : in doms II patrolling wont allow you to increase taxes, if I recall. In fact I dont think there is a tax % to be modified.

Re: Depopulation
 

Kristoffer replied while I was typing... so the Last part of my post is obsolete. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Depopulation
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">We like it the way it is, it is easier to kill than to repopulate. If you kill off a whole province it only makes sense that it is a very slow process for it to be repopulated.

Re: Depopulation
 

Maybe there should be more global spells what would help to repopulate the provinces...

Re: Depopulation
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Heh, it should much easier to kill than to repopulate, the problem is, it's almost impossible to repopulate. I'd love to get some other ways to raise the population of a province.

Re: Depopulation
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Heh, it should much easier to kill than to repopulate, the problem is, it's almost impossible to repopulate. I'd love to get some other ways to raise the population of a province.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why not add a kind of 'forced migration', take a commander and some troops and force a few hundred people from one province to another... You'd have to take a pretty hefty unrest hit, but in some situations it might be worth it to try and get the pop jumpstarted somewhere...

Re: Depopulation
 

That wont help, if almost all provinces are depopulated.

As I said there should be some major spells to populate a province, or maybe some other options.

Re: Depopulation
 

To raise a child takes time, and even though lust and good harvests might speed up the *!* http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif , breeding is a rather slow process.

Population is a resource, much like gold or metals. During ancient times chinese warlords force-moved farmers from one province to another. This was probably done by other ancient empires as well. After all, population was the most important resource of an empire. We realized that a game mechanic that allowed moving populations would cause all inhabitants to be gathered into capitals. Not a very good solution.

I like the fact that it is impossible to increase the population. It is the only non renewable resource in dominions.

Last remark: There are three kinds of spells I can think of that would increase population: teleport thousands into your province, create thousands out of thin air or force grow thousands. I do not like the first two options and the Last one strikes me as inefficient if you want to create a farming population. I prefer to keep crossbreeding for war only purposes.

Re: Depopulation
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmm, well if almost all provinces are depopulated then I'd guess that Ermor (or whomever) had pretty much won. Besides where does the new population come from? Even with as much magic as there is in the game, it doesn't make alot of sense for people to just pop out of the aether. Spells that increase the %growth make sense, for that reason, being able to forcibly move enough pop from one place to another, then slap on some spells to make them @#%# like bunnies (so sue me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) or make them happier where they are make more sense.

Maybe for some nations it makes sense to create population from nothing, but the entire aspect of who lives in where is pretty well abstracted I think. Better to not think about it too logically perhaps, or else you'll lose your perspective on the game as a whole, by getting bogged down in arguments about realism and the like http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

"We realized that a game mechanic that allowed moving populations would cause all inhabitants to be gathered into capitals. Not a very good solution. "

But surely you could implement population caps based on scales and province size, ... for various provinces, and as such trying to cram in too many people would cause bad things to happen? If you look at MoO3 they had this exact dynamic (though you couldn't really force move people either), but once a system (province) started to get too many people in it, unrest would go through the roof, and alot of the people would leave to go to less crowded places.

Also a decreasing rate of return as you swell the population somewhere would work as well. I don't really mind the situation as it is now, but its not that difficult to implement a system to allow for population transfer, especially if its forced and by design takes up commander and troop time, as well as increasing unrest in the provinces it affects.

[ September 25, 2003, 19:23: Message edited by: licker ]

Re: Depopulation
 

Hmmmmmm...
Crossbreeding for war purposes only...
Apparently you still like crossbreeds...
We even got the R'lyehian Tentacle Boogeymen/Human Crossbreeds... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif
(if you don't know what i am talking about, then forget...)

Re: Depopulation
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">LOL... it reminds me of one of my first big PBEMs, I managed to conquer Atlantis early and after a while my twin capitals were past the 4Ok pop mark - great!. At this point a coalition of all the remaining players (bar just two) decided I was a really stinking squid and they poured Black Deaths on my big sea provinces like if there was no tomorrow. 14 turns after the first hit, and despite the fact I had domes of AW on every 20k+ province even before the onslaught started, Atlantis was down to 11k, R'lyeh to less than 4k (!), and although I had conquered a dozen more provinces (mostly Abysian wastelands, sheeesh!), I had 65% less pop! That was the first time I was subject to mass devastation, and it left me somewhat... shocked ;-)

Every game I played after that, especially on small crowded maps, was pretty brutal on the pop if it were to Last more than 50-60 turns. Pillaging your ennemy's territory is sometimes more profitable than storming his fortresses.

Ah, another fun 'death' game: common random events, and every player had to pick max unluck + max turmoil. I got 3 floods on my capitol in the first 8 turns, reducing it to just above 8k. A few barbarian invasions and emigrations later, I was down to less than 4k. My closest neighbor was in an even worse shape, at the same time he had just 1200 pop left at his capital. The only lucky event I had was the visit of the hero team, since I managed to convert Bogus and his fellow Troll archer to my cause ;-). After a while every regular troop you could raise was a virtual deserter because of gold shortages. At some point I suicided all my standard leaders to cut on my upkeep (I had no regular troop left for them to lead anyway), so I could buy a couple more summoners. OFC Ermor wasn't allowed in this game, but it turned out the most succesful players had 'Ermorian' dominions and pretenders (and strategies). The game Lasted more than 70 turns and I don't think the largest province was bigger than 5k in the end ;-)

Re: Depopulation
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, we could implement some ways to keep people from crowding a few well defended provinces. I have an idea right now on how it might work, but it will change the game and the balance a bit so for the time being it will not be implemented. I actually like the idea of moving populations, but the micromanagement involved would be the opposite of what we try to do with the taxing/patrolling. We don't want micromanagement to be a means to victory.

Re: Depopulation
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Excellent. These 3 options will be enough. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Dont forget that this game has NOTHING to do with reality, so I see nothing wrong, by creating population out of thin air. In fact this will BALANCE the game.

Re: Depopulation
 

Perhaps. It has not been tested.

Re: Depopulation
 

[quote]Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
[quote]Yes, we could implement some ways to keep people from crowding a few well defended provinces. I have an idea right now on how it might work, but it will change the game and the balance a bit so for the time being it will not be implemented. I actually like the idea of moving populations, but the micromanagement involved would be the opposite of what we try to do with the taxing/patrolling. We don't want micromanagement to be a means to victory.

I agree that micro should be avoided like the plague, however, if some action is uncommon enough, then making if micro is probably ok. Anyway, my suggestion would be to allow for the player to 'mark' provinces for immigration. I would imagine this working by having an extra box or check on the province info screen where the player could set a certain amount of cash to encourage people to migrate there. So you wouldn't gain any population to your entire kingdom, but you would be able to pursuade your citizens to move around some. As I envision it, the money would have to be paid every turn, and there would be no gaurentee that anyone would actually move. I don't know how, or even if, migration is handled in Dom2, but it would be an interesting addition... add some effects that allow you to 'encourage' enemy pretenders population to move to your border provinces, and you have a new way of fighting your enemies with gold rather than magic http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 25, 2003, 20:02: Message edited by: licker ]

Re: Depopulation
 

There can be also some sort of spell that will bring people from parallel universe or another world (Dimensional Gate or something like it). Of course war is always destructive on population but population is always finding its own way of survival too, so it may be easy to kill some of the population but to kill all population is a bit too much and unrealistic. Heck, in our own history towns and villages have been razed to the ground and there always would be survivors. So I think that, at the moment, rate of population destruction is way off scales. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Lower taxes would probably lead to more babies http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif and that would lead to more population. So it would help population growth just not instantly. As it is now, lower taxes have no effect at all on population.

I guess I vote for population instead of Death. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 25, 2003, 20:14: Message edited by: Daynarr ]

Re: Depopulation
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm not overly enthusiastic about growing more pop in Dom2 to compensate for depopulation, but I think yours is a cute idea. Other options:

(1) The "marking" could be triggered by a ritual spell (thus needing a lab), and you could spend extra gems to slightly increase your chances of success.

(2) Preaching/religious dominance - if your dominion spreads into your adversary's territory, it seems logical the believers here should see an opportunity to migrate to the land which actively promotes their own faith.

Re: Depopulation
 

And there are two additional good ways/spells to increase population:
- Spell that would reduce accidental deaths (good luck) among population, which would reduce death in province and thus increase population.
- Spell that will increase life span of population (Spell of long life maybe). That would also have immediate effect.

Re: Depopulation
 

I still bring out my opinion that crossbreeding is the road to happiness and equality! Because of R'lyeh, the world is happier than before R'lyeh, because we have crossbreeding that can solve so many problems!

Yes, this is very, very OT and very, very weird and somewhat disturbing. But that doesn't change the fact that R'lyeh has Tentacle Boogeymen/Human Crossbreeds... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Depopulation
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Look at history... times of religious wars weren't kind on the common people. The Taiping Rebellion alone (which was triggered by a fanatic christian chinese) caused the death of 20 or 30 millions.

Re: Depopulation
 

Is there no one that have tried to wish for population?

It does work.

[ September 25, 2003, 20:40: Message edited by: Kristoffer O ]

Re: Depopulation
 

Who wishes for "stupid" things like that when we can wish for Lord of the Night's who we then give proper equpment and then use as uber-assasins.
Or then we wish either for gold or gems.

Re: Depopulation
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmmm... my own favorite wishes are POWER and MAGIC POWER - definitely! Turn an astral mage into a killing machine...

Re: Depopulation
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">a bit too costly for a 100 gems cost.

a simple mechanism would be to have the growth scale give a *minimal* increase, whatever is the pop of the province. As of now, a depopulated province stay depopulated.

Also, why not tie pop growth to tax rate. You already have implemented that too much taxes reduce populations, so why not enabling the reverse (population migrate into the province, they dont have to be teleported magically!).

also the growth scale give roughly 0.15% increase each time (for an astonishing ~~ 0.5 % for growth +3). The doms I manual states that the growth rate is 0.5% for EACH scale. So, is the code buggy (anathem!) or is the manual wrong?

Re: Depopulation
 

It can't be anathem!
Illwinter is holy, their manuals just got attacked by the printing demons!
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ September 28, 2003, 07:52: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

Re: Depopulation
 

If there will be spell(s) to 'summon' population, its all good than.

Re: Depopulation
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">a bit too costly for a 100 gems cost.

a simple mechanism would be to have the growth scale give a *minimal* increase, whatever is the pop of the province. As of now, a depopulated province stay depopulated.

Also, why not tie pop growth to tax rate. You already have implemented that too much taxes reduce populations, so why not enabling the reverse (population migrate into the province, they dont have to be teleported magically!).

also the growth scale give roughly 0.15% increase each time (for an astonishing ~~ 0.5 % for growth +3). The doms I manual states that the growth rate is 0.5% for EACH scale. So, is the code buggy (anathem!) or is the manual wrong?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In dom 2 one turn is one month. If I recall correctly the growth is 1.001+(growth*0.002) maxing out at 1.007^12=1.087.. a year, almost 9% population growth a year. At growth 0 it will result in appr. 1.2% growth a year. 9% population growth a year is a pretty big whopping growth. The reason that taxes below the default does not increase population growth is that the 100% is considered the tax that is sustainable without impacting negatively on the population, more taxes will be detrimental to the health of population, but lower taxes will not have that much of a positive impact. There is no national health care plan in dominions but gift of health! Demand gift of health from your local pretender today!

[ September 25, 2003, 22:18: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Re: Depopulation
 

Another idea: give the growth scale a fixed population increase, so with growth +3, per example, you'll have a growth of 30 or the percentual bonus, whichever is greater.

Re: Depopulation
 

I like licker's idea (borrowed from MOO3) for the most part. At the least, a system of auto-migration would work very well for this game, IMHO. Residents of high-tax, high-unrest provinces would likely start moving out into neighbouring provinces with lower tax rates, or a nicer living environment (dominion scales could play a part here as well... people in a 3 point Death scale would be migrating in droves. Likewise, sitting next to a province with Order, Growth and Fortune scales all at 3, you would start to seriously consider moving to this 'paradise' province next door).

Overpopulation could be factored in as well (although, if there's an unrest effect for overpopulation, that would take care of it). In this way, the population of larger provinces would gradually spread out to nearby provinces with lots of empty space (thus, no crowding 100,000 people into your capitol). This would also encourage people to settle newly-conquered wastelands, as your dominion gradually improves conditions there... which seems to have been the original goal of this thread.

In particular, I like the idea that as your dominion spreads to enemy provinces you convert people in that province to your faith, who would then consider making a pilgrimage to lands where the 'true god' is worshipped. This adds even more depth the idea of waging war with the strength of your dominion (as it allows you to 'steal' an opponent's tax base).

All of the above effects would be automatic, and therefore require no micromanagement on the part of the player (a design goal I strongly agree with). With that system in place though, you could then add controls to allow players to influence the process, if you wanted. Some of the other ideas in this thread would be good for that (spending gold to 'encourage' people to migrate, using commanders to 'force' migration, and even using magic to teleport people from distant provinces).

Other things that are already in the game could be of use as well... patrolling troops might help prevent migration for example (on top of reducing the unrest that makes the people want to leave)... and players could manipulate their tax rates if they really wanted to 'push' population in a given direction (this is how the North American west was settled after all... with free homesteads and tax breaks offered to people willing to migrate).

Re: Depopulation
 

thanks for the precision Johan.

Re: Depopulation
 

So we will have spells/other options to repopulate provinces? I hope so. In my games, there are huge amount of dead provinces. Its very annoying. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Depopulation
 

Rigth. And you don't happen to play with players who think 3 Death is a good way to get more design points?

Re: Depopulation
 

I do like that idea of automatic migration. High unrest + a Dominion that doesn't match the provincial owner = sudden relocation plan!

I'm not all that concerned about population growth; I just think it'd be an interesting dynamic to have going on. Possibly patrols could then serve another purpose: to stop the people from crossing the border into enemy territory!