cavalry archers, and other lost units
 

What has been done to get us have a bit more interest in cavalry archer (a shortbowman on horse costing 30 gold in doms I). It was debated a time that perhaps they would have a bonus in province movement, but I think this was abandoned. So do they simply cost less now?

And what about some forgotten units that few if any players (the experienced ones at least http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) used, like the velites, cardaces, etc. ? Are they now tweaked (cost a bit less, or a slight increase in stats).

Re: cavalry archers, and other lost units
 

I can't tell you much about how they've changed (I haven't had time to play Dom I yet, but I'm a Dom II beta-tester) but I can definitely say mounted archers are very useful troops in Dom II. I'd have to check on their costs but I don't remember them being that expensive, for mounted troops at least, and they pack a heck of a punch as support troops for an infantry line or a few regular cavalry. Make for good skirmishers too, especially with the Fire And Flee command set for them.

I use the Velites and other javelin throwing units quite a bit when playing the appropriate nations. You can rapidly field a huge army of them, and those javelins hurt! They can't take much abuse but they are quick and cheap to replace.

You probably knew all that though . . . my point here, really, is just to say that I'm finding the costs and usefullness of these troops to be balanced in Dom II.

Re: cavalry archers, and other lost units
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">ok for the mounted cavalry. I suppose they are less costly. Using fire and flee is not that interesting, in doms I anyway, as you spread your troops in another province, even if you win the battle. Is it changed in doms II? I mean, are the fleeing troops still with your army when you win the battle?

Velites in doms I cost 9 gp and 10 resources. They have the same price that legionaries, but cost roughly -30 to -50% of the resources. With that in mind, you will recruit legionaries, because they have a javelin too, and are far better protected.

Re: cavalry archers, and other lost units
 

Well, IMHO the problem with Horse Archers is rather a problem of orders available : those guys have bows, mobility and are armed with spear.
Their usage should be "harass", that is come in range, shoot, retreat, rince & repeat, wait for rout or flanking position, then attack !
Problem : we have "attack" and "fire" orders only, that are good for "one usage" troops (Heavies attack, Bowmen Fire) but don't go well with Light Cav.

A "Harass" order should be nice and unveil the true power of Horse Archers ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Pocus, about Velites, maybe you can use them as Hypaspist for Arco : less resources-costly infantry, good enough against indies in start game when you're light on resources.
Maybe ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ September 29, 2003, 08:50: Message edited by: PDF ]

Re: cavalry archers, and other lost units
 

Harass or skirmish would be a better order which define well what they should do. Basically, a fire and flee, where units stay with your army win the province, would solve elegantly (understand not to bothersome to code I suppose) the problem.

I'm waiting for the response of Psitticine in fact, perhaps it works like that in doms II.

Velites cant be used as hypaspysts, because :

hypaspysts have a very high morale, meaning that they are used throughtout the game to bolster troops with weak morale, whereas velites are average on that.
But mostly because hypaspysts are worth their cost, as they have a high defence. They are produced 2.5 faster compared to hoplites. On the other hand, for nearly the same cost (9 gp versus 10 for a legionary), you will get velites which have an average morale, and are produced only **slightly faster**(+30% faster compared to the ( lowest cost in resource )legionary, which is anyway far better than a velite).
So in essence there is no real justification to choose building a velite compared to the lowest (cost in resource) legionary.

Re: cavalry archers, and other lost units
 

Fleeing units still scatter into neighboring friendly provinces, alas, even if their army wins the battle. (I guess they're too chicken to come back to the camp right away and get laughed at. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) If their flight is interrupted by victory (in other words, if they don't exit the map before you win) then they're still with the army after the battle.

The benefit I've been finding with Fire and Flee is that they'll fire away for 3 turns, but then retreat before the enemy can close ranks and whomp them back. It works especially well against infantry, obviously, including those with the shorter-ranged javelins. I don't use it all that often, for the exact reason you cited: it is dull having to round them up again afterwords. Still, even though I can't recommend it as a universal tactic, I've found it useful, especially in the early game where the low income situation means rounding them back up is a lot less costly, relatively speaking, than replacing them. In that early game, they will often end up having only one place to retreat to anyway.

Re: cavalry archers, and other lost units
 

It would be nice if there was a 'controlled retreat' option which preserved structure - and pretty realistic, since tactical withdrawal is not the same as a rout. Would this be difficult to implement?

Re: cavalry archers, and other lost units
 

No offence st.patrick, but "tactical withdrawal" reminds me from LAN-games with my friends...

Anyway, "controlled retreat" idea is very good IMO.

Re: cavalry archers, and other lost units
 

tactical withdrawal or fall back, whatever. Thats would not ask for too much works to make a test before scattering them, and if you win, abort the dispersal.

methink that if the mounted bowmen perform like this, you wont see many players using them in dominions II (well perhaps the same than in dominions I).

Re: cavalry archers, and other lost units
 

I agree with Pocus and st.patrick. This would make at least mounted bowmen more usefull.

Re: cavalry archers, and other lost units
 

Sounds like a good idea to me: if the army wins, those who were ordered to flee remain with it. I'd think those who fled because of broken morale might still logically scatter. Once one starts running, it is hard to stop, but that's why a total rout is quite different from an orderly, planned, and purposeful retreat.

Re: cavalry archers, and other lost units
 

Ohhhh most beautiful all mighty God of They Who Can Fly And Have A Quite Enervating High Pitched Voice (aka Parrots!), apply your persuasive and beguiling voice unto the Illwinter team http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: cavalry archers, and other lost units
 

Yes, yes, i can already divine the rise of Illwinter Dominion!
Yes, this would be nice to see along, with that "non-national militia" suggestion.

Re: cavalry archers, and other lost units
 

This "Exit battle but stay with army" option gets my vote as well. Collecting and reorganizing retreated units, after a big victory, is a huge pain and makes little sense. It has prevented me from ever using "Fire and Flee" orders, and generally makes me put all my units in one huge group if possible, just because it is so annoying if half your army flees to another province while other half wins.

-Cherry

Re: cavalry archers, and other lost units
 

This goes back to a discussion from way back on the Usenet...

I suggest a "raid" order. This is what light cav (and cav archers) could excel at.

Have raiders cross from one province to an enemy province. Once there they engage in a fire and flee battle. Doen't matter what the results are, the province hit should experience heavy unrest, as population does not like enemy troops romping around and causing trouble.

Light troops are better for this situation since on defense they can run down raiders. On offense they can escape. Archers allow for some extra attacks before the raiders flee.

Want to stop raiders from crossing the border, causing trouble, starting a skirmish, and leaving? Then go to war and invade. Just like real life.

I think this would add a new dimension to the game, would be easy to implement, and would raise the value of light cavalry.

Re: cavalry archers, and other lost units
 

"Harass", "Skirmish", "Raid", whatever, please give us an order that makes Lt Cav behave like Lt Cav should ...
Today again I viewed a battle involving Cav Archers : the guys shoots incoming HI, but when the HI come to contact they engage instead of just breaking to the sides and continue peltering the footsloggers ... And then they're cut to pieces, game over http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
Not a very effective Lt Cav eventually...

Re: cavalry archers, and other lost units
 

the fire and flee works in an interesting manner now (dunno if it will makes original release though, perhaps the first patch)

Re: cavalry archers, and other lost units
 

The improvements to Fire and Flee and the other orders that lead to units exiting the battlefield will be in the first patch. There wasn't time to get them into the gold Version and have them tested out thoroughly without delaying everything, which would not be good.

To summorize those improvements for those who don't know what I'm talking about, units that have been ordered to make a strategic retreat will remain in position with the army if it wins the battle. Those that rout due to morale failure will still be scattered in neighboring provinces, just as before.

I'm not sure what will happen in a raiding situation if everybody has been ordered to retreat and the battle is "lost" because of the that. They may return to their province-of-orgin but I don't know. I'll post an update on that part of things when I have more info.

Re: cavalry archers, and other lost units
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">originally, when you loose a fight, you retreat to the highest numbered province. This could lead to some abuse, and was anyway not that optimal. I would like to have the units retreat into their province of origin, if still controlled, and if not, randomly.