Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

In Dominions I there is some Pretenders that just aren't wortwhile. Lord of the Nigth, Mother of Lions, Dragons and (from what i have read) Nagas, and "Rainbow Mages" to some extent. What have you done to make these Pretenders worthwhile.
I am also concerned that will the RB Mages become even less usefull, even if their cost has been reduced, because bless effect is now dependant on your starting magic, and it requires minium 4 to get an effect from a magic path.

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

Johan made a comment on this earlier in the forum (the RB is worthwhile). Other pretenders have been remade. We hope that they are balanced.

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

Ok, now i'l just have to wait...
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

you know Nerfix, when I first saw your signature, I thought you would change it every day so that we can check the dom II progress page without having to goes there. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I must say I'm rather sad to see that you are not updating your sig at all. Shame on you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

Pocus, i will update my sig if i find anything as hilarious as those two pieces of text...

And why did you derail this thread?
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

I tend towards liking pretenders with very strong magic in one or two skills rather than having it spread about, but I have tried the jack-of-all-trades type enough to know that approach works OK.

Magic paths give benefits to the mage itself (which includes pretenders) for even 1 point of power in that path. If your pretender is intended to function as a combat unit, I think the accumulated benefits for having many paths nicely offsets the fact your blessings won't be as potent.

The reason I usually take a very high level in one path plus a medium-high level in a second path is because I love the super-spells and do enjoy the second-tier blessing effects you can only get from having a starting power of 9+ in a path. It's a taste thing, though, not an "I'll never win if I don't do it this way!" thing.

I do, however, think that you wouldn't be getting as much out of a diverse pretender if he/she/it wasn't on the front lines, actually using those boosted stats. If you tend to have your pretender hanging about the home province, casting spells, enchanting stuff, and so forth, then I think focus rather then diversification is what pays off more.

I haven't played as a Naga, but Dragons are just too much fun. I haven't played the cost-analysis game to see if they are worth the price compared to others, but their breath attacks, transformations, and the fact their really-strong-in-one-path natures fit my play style means that they are worth it to me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

How much Nagas and their magic picks cost in Dominions II?

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

I've been playing a dragon in Doms I, and have no complaints. I was stuck in a two-way stalemate when my two enemies started coming at me with their pretenders.

Incidently, one enemy pretender was a very deadly naga who, although her army was being repeatedly smashed by mine, would then lay waste to my high-quality troops, who would overrun her and chop at her. The troops caused her several severe afflictions eventually, including the loss of both eyes, but she still laid waste to scores of my elite heavy-armored Ulm infantry, because she cast SOUL VORTEX at the start of the battle, so as they all mobbed her, they died very quickly. That set me back years of game time in progress, and tipped the scales against me...

... until I sent in my own pretender, in dragon form, with "attack commanders" tactics, and gobbled her up. Did it again when she came back. Did the same thing against the other attacking pretender. Dragons are quite potent. My dragon is also #1 or #2 in the hall of heroes, through laying waste to enemies in combat.

Perhaps a human player would have a trick I don't know to take out a dragon?

PvK

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

Well, Dragons do have huge physical stats, but they have only misc slots and they can't use magic in their Dragon form.

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

Ya, the poor little thing. (burp) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">pretenders which are physically strong but have few slots (misc) wont stand against super-combattants, like an equipped golem, arch devil, ice devil, gifted gargoyle, etc. When you encounters beasts which have defence 35 amongst other stats, I can assure you'd better be prepared with specifics counter measures.

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

In a game I finished recently, the final battle was (suitingly) a clash between my pretender and the enemy. I was playing as a Bog Mummy and the enemy was a Blue Dragon.

My Bog Mummy ended up alone on the field. Everybody else on my side had either fled or fallen. He marched up to the Dragon and cast Leeching Touch on him. The Dragon lost something like 96 HP, I believe, and my Bog Mummy was suddenly at full health and 0 fatigue. The Dragon whomped on him pretty good in return, but another casting of Leeching Touch patched up ol' Dry & Crunchy, plus it brought the Dragon down to single digit HP. This was repeated once more, and then there was only one pretender on the field. My Bog Mummy did some little something that took out the remaining enemy troops (can't remember what he cast, but it worked well!) and that was that.

(On a side note, it should be kept in mind that my mummy had a power of 10+ in Blood Magic at that point; Leeching Touch isn't always that powerful, but I'm sure y'all knew that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )

Soooooo . . . I think the moral here is that Dragons will eat combat types for breakfast but powerful mages armed with the right spells can still go toe-to-toe with them. If the Dragons haven't transformed yet, then they are often powerful spell-casters in their own way (along one path only, usually) and that can certainly change things, but that Blue Dragon was not a challenge for my Bog Mummy.

Also, before they clashed directly, he ate down my best troops like they were popcorn and those he couldn't reach routed in droves. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif This post should not be seen as contradictory to my earlier pro-Dragon one!!

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

How often do you script your mages by the way? Occasionally to get a combo going, or more often than that?

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

Me? I usually don't script them to any great degree. They do an excellent job of selecting their own spells in most cases. I will often give them orders to start off with a communion and/or use power-boosting spells if I know they are going into something nasty, but then I more often than not just leave it up to the AI's judgement.

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thank you Psitticine, this is what I wanted you to say http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
The following 'critics' are not directed toward you, and, I hope, will be felt constructives. I'm sorry if I'm offending anybody with them :

I dont want to feel accusative, but I think this is part of the 'problem' we have, us pbem'er of dominions, and you, the Illwinter team and associated beta testers.

Perhaps the dominions players on the NG are perceived as a small grognard community, but the fact is that most if not all of these players, when playing in pbem, script very often their mages.
Why :
1) tac-AI in doms I is not that good in his spell choice.
2) Competitive play *ASK* you to extract the best of your units. Often we are not playing to win at all cost, we play to have fun, but we dont play either to loose. So we script, even simple tactic like casting Aim them 4 astral fires.
On the contrary, I believe that it is extremely rare that you (the IW team and beta testers) script to the extent we do (that is 50 mages in a row).

This appeal some comments :

1) the problem : Most of dominions I players expected a major, or at least big, focus of IW toward easying scripting tediousness. On the contrary, IW didnt saw a problem there, and didnt focus on how to improve the work of scripting spells. We asked for scripting templates, saving and reloading scripts, scripting several mages at once with the same list, etc.

2) The arguments of IW against the 'problem' are that :
a) there is no problem.
b) few players engage themselves in scripting too much, we dont make modifications for an handful of customers.
c) the game is our, we head it in the direction we want.

Personally I'm pretty sure that many doms I players see there is problem. I posted a poll on what players wanted to see in doms II. True, 50 or so people is a bit too few to get an idea, but still, most of players wanted less micromanagements, including in scripting.
Lastly, IW is selling a product. This mean they want people to buy it. This mean they will increase there selling figures if they try to alleviate the problems many customers have.

Speaking of the (small) french community as an example, 8/10 friends of mine bought the licence of doms I. 2 and perhaps 3 wont buy doms II, before playing the demo, to see if scripting micromanagement is more easy. I know this is a small population, but I think it shows well the trend.

To end on a positive note, perhaps the domsII AI is so good that we wont have to script anything, bare special combos. I pray and hope for that, this would solve everything http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

ok flames away, and votes for one star now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually IW tends to say things like that, and it is very annoying. IW should take a lesson from Timegate [Kohan developers], they are an awesome company.
They are always communicating via their message board with the fans, and they are always listening to them. That is the key to make a successful game. If you say things like: 'We like it this way, this won't be changed.', you will loose more fans for sure.
Think about it, before posting that sentence in any form. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

[ October 06, 2003, 07:08: Message edited by: MStavros ]

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">a)There is obviously a problem for some players, other wise you wouldn't complain. In our experience it seems to be less of a problem than it appears to you.
b) There has been a modification to this recently, this was discussed in another thread, The one with Daynarrs suggestion etc.
c) Wether I say it or not or your complaints are listened to or not the game will head in a direction JK and Kristoffer wants. It is not like your views are inherently incompatible with theirs.

There have been some discussions on some of this before. First of all we do script our mages, or at least I do, I just very seldomly have 50 mages in a battle. In fact I have never seen it in multi* player, perhaps we play on poorer maps or play shorter games etc. Secondly just because I argue with you does not mean I do not listen, and more to the point that JK or Kristoffer does not listen. Just because you suggest a change does not mean they should immediately roll over and implement it, they have to weigh it against their own experience and knowledge of the game. Thirdly the major constraint is not lack of wanting to add features that will ease up on micromanagement but it is a lack of resources. IW is still more or less a hobby company, changes are often made because they are fun to make, this might make changes you might find useful to have low priority. Any changes in spell scripting, tac AI etc is changes JK has to make that he doesnt particularily enjoy that he so far hasn't been paid for and might very well not bee that heavily reimbursed for. At the moment you are more or less making demands on JKs or Kristoffers spare time when you suggest a change, so if there isnt an immediate outpouring of wholehearted support for any suggested changes this should not suprise you.

As for the complaint that IW do not listen to your your opinions MsStavros. I thought it would be preferable if I we argued point or made our reasons clear why a change was not made rather then just saying uh huh or there might be a change, or just not answering at all. I think my opinion as a player are as valid as yours even if I have had some small part in the making of dominions, I play the game I have opinions on it. Just because I do not agree to you do not mean that I do not listen.

A few parting point thoughts.
There is work on modding tools going on, the possiblilty of copying scripts have been added. Other changes suggested here or by shrapnels beta testers have been implemented.
If all the features suggested here was to be implemented, dom 2 would never see the light of day.
JK and Kristoffer are nicer than I am.

*Edit changed single player games to mult player games

[ October 06, 2003, 10:09: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">YAY! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ October 06, 2003, 10:04: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

So it seems that Dom II (at least as played by beta-testers) doesn't have such a reliance on scripting mages as Dom I - presumably because in Dom II mages aren't as foolish with their spell-casting options as Dom I mages.

My question is this: a prominent way to destroy armies in Dom I was to cast a ward spell, followed by the appropriate battlefield damage spell, e.g. Thunder Ward, followed by Wrathful Skies etc. Is this as important a part of winning battles in Dom II as it was in Dom I? I can see one reason why it wouldn't be - wards do not give total protection against their element anymore.

I guess a related question would be whether the AI would ever do the above combination - ward then battlefield damage spell. If not, and if such combos are still a viable way to do lots of damage to your opponent, then it would seem that scripting is still a really important part of the game.

The way Dom I is, if you want your mages to do anything really useful you've got to script. It seems like with Dom II IW are moving away from script-intensive battles and more toward getting the mages with the right abilities and research level out into the battlefield and letting them do their thing. In fact it seems like scripting might be a liability at times, and it's maybe better to let the mage decide what's best.

Since I'm kinda lazy I don't mind the trend http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif , but on the other hand I think scripting is a key part of tactical combat in Dom I [perhaps the most key part]. I wonder if a well-scripted mage would beat one on autopilot, or vice versa - I guess that's what all this rambling is about http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

p.s. We all have ideas about what we'd like Dom II to look like - I myself have suggested several, and had several shot down by IW. But you can't really fault IW for taking their game in the direction they want. I think it's great that they have a presence in this forum, and actually interact with our suggestions & comments - but I don't think at all that they have a responsibility to do so - more like they're doing us a favour. That said, I do hope they implement some of the suggestions that have been made.

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

I am not sure this have been obvious enough, or perhaps you do not think it is enough of an improvement on scripting etc. There is in the latest Version of the beta the ability save a script or a set of orders and copy it to another commander. You can have up to ten scripts in memory simultaneously by pressing [ctrl]+[number] to copy and [number] to paste.

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I read that, I think the suggestion was from Daynarr. I was unsure if this would be implemented for true, or was just a feature in testing. If this is validated & found in the final release, then is it great news.

thanks for your time.

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Are you aware that Illwinter released no fewer than 15 patches to Dominions 1, and that the vast majority of them were for the purpose of implementing improvements suggested by the player community? Implying that Illwinter is unresponsive is absurd.

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It all depends on how you define 'successful' - a lot of fans' suggestions aren't very good; if you as a company incorporate all (or even most) of them you may be popular because you listen to what players want, but chances are your game will suck. I think IW (rightly IMO) are more interested in making a well-balanced game than having every player suggestion included. And again, I say this as someone who has made plenty of suggestions, so I'm not against making suggestions. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ October 06, 2003, 15:28: Message edited by: st.patrik ]

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

I don't think there's any real animosity between illwinter and any of their fans, just people who want to see Dom2 be the best that it can be, though that 'best' can and is different for different people http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I will second (or third or whatever number I am) the suggestions that would leed to Dom2 becoming more of a macro oriented game, I think everyone has done enough micro games, and Dom1, while containing elements of micro, really is more of a macro type game than it is micro. For the sake of clarification (sticking with fantasy themed games) I consider HoMM and AoW to be micro oriented games, what they consist of mostly is learning the proper order in which to build up your cities, then doing it, then learning the proper order in which to build up your troops. Its fun for a while, but it gets really dull and annoying (especially HoMM) after a while, becasue you *have* to do things in a certain order, and you can't automate it very effectively.

Dom is much better in lessening that aspect, partially because it abstracts all the improvment building into the province statistics, but also because it isn't as geared toward that type of thinking. Where I run into problems with Dom1 is in the issuing of orders to troops and mages, for this some saved scripts (as has been impemented apparently) would be a real god send. It would also be nice to be able to issue permanent orders for anything (already done for patroling and repeat rituals), and stacked orders for site searching mages or sneaking commanders/armies.

It sounds like Dom2 is orders of magnatude more user friendly then Dom1 already with the empire screen (F4 right?) and other already implemented improvments, so I am hopeful now that once Dom2 has been out for a few weeks and people have kicked it around, working out any remaining bugs or balance issues, the devs will have the time and desire to address further UI, or 'player friendly' improvments.

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

Thanks for the support! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

We like you too! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ October 06, 2003, 18:58: Message edited by: Kristoffer O ]

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That hasn't anything to do with that we are paying customers?
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Anyway, shortly put, you make quality work, and quality work is what i respect.

Oh yeah, a friendly word of marketing advice:
Maybe you should replace the current batle pics at Shrapnel's page with depixelaed sprites? Pixelated units can scare customers away...

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Cool! This is the best thing I've heard about Dom 2 yet.

Dominions 1 frankly has a _lot_ of micromanagement. When playing a competitive late game on even a small map like Dandelion, my turns take me hours to finish -- and I could easily spend more time and improve my play.

This is the prime reason that so many multiplayer games stall in the end game and are never finished. For example, the "Grana" game hosted by Illwinter a while back, which I believe we were both in (I played Pangaea as a Medusa).

Most of this micromanagement for me comes from giving units orders -- all units that can reasonably be in combat must be scripted to do well, and during a war these orders often must change from turn to turn due to changing threats, gem availability, force mixture, etc.

Further improvements in this area could easily cut by half the time it takes me to finish a turn. Needless to say this would be a Good Thing, and I suspect it's what Pocus is getting at as well.

[ October 06, 2003, 22:38: Message edited by: Jasper ]

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

Yeah, I was Jotunheim. I beat myself bloody on Caelum, and was swallowed by Abysia.

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is my main point. I dont want my comments to be perceived as bitter remarks. I know well that you have heard in the past, many time, the numerous complaints of players.

I know well the issues you are reporting, and take account of them. That IW is a small team, mostly doing the work on hobby time for example. I wont discuss the 'problem' any further, because baring a massive poll on this topic, poll which could reasonably be launched only after some weeks or even months of playing dominions II, baring this, you would not be convinced, and me neither, that the problem is widespread, or is reduced to a hard core community of fanatic players.

The forum is a place of discussion, I felt appropriate to rise (again) the issue, because it is one for some players. I'm not speaking alone, and I dont feel either that I have the right to have anything from IW, except perhaps some explainations that you just gave me. SO everything is ok. I will play eargerly doms II, and will surely either recognize that the 'issues' some of us were having have dispareared, or, on the other hand, are still there. Then I will bring again the 'problem' on this forum.

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">FWIW, your post is far from offensive-seeming to me. It reads to me like you took time to think out what you wanted to say about an important issue and presented a careful piece of criticism. As always, people may or may not agree, but I don't think anybody would think you're trying to do anything but be constructive.

All just IMHO, of course, but I thought I'd toss that out there. I hope everybody will continue to express their thoughts, ideas, suggestions, and, yes, their criticisms. Illwinter has been extrememly open and communicative, IMO, and I think they also deserve credit for being honest about their thinking when they disagree with others (even when they disagree with ME! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif ) The better the communication is on both sides, players and developers, the brighter the game's future.

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

Message read, and point taken Psitticine. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

I know Im jumping in late but I want to make a comment on the ORIGINAL post in this thread. Those from the newsGroups know that Im big on taking whatever seems to be "worthless" in the game and trying hard to find a reason for it.

Lord of Night I wont even discuss in this post since I find it way too useful as a pretender.

Dragons have their pros and cons but one of the things I havent seen yet is an advantage which was obviously planned into them. Their human forms appear to be exactly like other human forms in the game. There are a variety of attacks (such as assassins) where long and careful planning would amount to a big surprise when the wimpy human with only magic to worry about does a form change into a massive winged breathing mosnter.

I do feel that dragons have areas which could stand some upgrading. For one thing I dont like that magic items on the human form will dissapear completely during a change (how about dumping them into the Lab if space is available). Some natural abilitys sticking around would be a big help also, such as the blue dragon still being able to enter the water.

There are other pretenders which can stand some tweaking although most suggestions I see seem directed in the same direction such as making combat or search prtenders out of them. Moving that direction would eventually make them all the same. Id like to see more experimentation and variety of fixes to the lesser chosen ones in order to have MORE choices of strategy rather than less.

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Didn't you make the thread that ranked all pretenders in Dominions I at the usenet Groups?

Anyway, i remember that LoN was ranked pretty poor.

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Dragons of Dom 1 are perfectly fine in their current form and cost.

I think that the trick is to use them in dragon form during early expansion and mid-game. A dragon staying far back, with the "Hold and Attack Commander" can take out indies far better than a Wyrm. You can even enhance some of them with spells ("Regeneration", "Fireshield") during the first two turns before enemies arrive. Later in the game, he will be a low level mages giving you access to otherwise an unaccessible path, or an expensible physical basher.

Green Dragon is the best for because a slightly boost up Green Dragon can cast "Lamia Queen" and other Nature summoning spells, giving you even more access to other schools. Red and Blue Dragons are not as nice as their spells are mostly useful only in combat. If dominion strength is not too important, a boost up Green Dragon will be about 80 to 100 points, comparable to a Balrog and not significanlty more expensive than a raw Wyrm.

Nagas are *slightly* too expensive. If the cost is about 25 to 50 points lower, a Golden Naga can be reasonably used as a high-hitpoint rainbow mage. Her large hitpoints can help her survive a battle. The normal Naga is (IMHO) not particular useful because Nature magic is non-offensive in battle. Her large hitpoint won't be much a bonus over your normal Arch-druids.

Lord of the Night is usable for Ermor, who has numerous nation points to waste http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif . His stealth can give you some very interesting tactics. But since Ermor is in general hard to play, I don't know how well he can be played.

But I guess, the problem for most other pretenders is more because the MP game has been optimized to the point that only the best pretenders are now being used. As in the this stage, the game mechanisms and dynamics favor towards early expansion, everybody needs a cheap (enough) pretender to stay in the game.

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

Dragons have been remade more than once. In Dom II a dragon in dragon shape has -2 in all magic skills. Thus dragons can cast spells, enter water (if blue) and will tend to have one high magic skill (several low level skills would not be usable in dragon shape). This fits their nature.

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">YES!
That is what i wanted to hear!

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I use LoN quite abit for many races. His ability to create demonic sneaky flyers is a big boost. I especially liked using him with Pangaea. Having a deity who was flying-sneaky, with a flying-sneaky (demons and harpies) was very handy for a race who could move a sneaky army long distances. Nice for quick support.

In fact I used him for just about any race that didnt have an overabundance of units with priest powers (they tended to dispell my own units in combat)

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Great! That combined with their latest Dom 1 price of 50 IMHO might make them useable, although the price still isn't cheap when you factor in the Dominion of 1 (especially now that Dominion Strength can exceed 10).

The funny thing is that I find their transformation ability to be mostly a weakness. I would far rather have a dragon that kept his magical power, but couldn't transform.

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Great! That combined with their latest Dom 1 price of 50 IMHO might make them useable, although the price still isn't cheap when you factor in the Dominion of 1 (especially now that Dominion Strength can exceed 10).

The funny thing is that I find their transformation ability to be mostly a weakness. I would far rather have a dragon that kept his magical power, but couldn't transform.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Don't forget special blessing bonuses you receive at levels 4 and 9. If you want to boost your blessings, dragons are a good and cheap way to go. IMHO it makes them even more valuable (Nagas as well).

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Great! That combined with their latest Dom 1 price of 50 IMHO might make them useable, although the price still isn't cheap when you factor in the Dominion of 1 (especially now that Dominion Strength can exceed 10).

The funny thing is that I find their transformation ability to be mostly a weakness. I would far rather have a dragon that kept his magical power, but couldn't transform.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Eh, I think there must have been a misunderstaning somewhere. If you and everyone else is referring to what I said earlier about dominion strength exceeding ten, my correction was intended to state that I had it wrong, but that I wasnt sure if blood sacrifice or fire of the faith could bring it over ten. I haven't checked it out but my guess would be that they can not do this.

So as far as I know dominion strength is limited to 10.

[ October 07, 2003, 23:26: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wouldn't that just be the same as buying a great sage, or whatever dragons are in human form?

[ October 08, 2003, 00:20: Message edited by: st.patrik ]

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

As I've said before, I'm a "role-playing" type, so the extra bonus flavor that comes from Draconic Pretenders is well worth the admission price. They seem powerful enough to me anyway, but, of course, Your Milage May Vary.

Call me weird . . . (pause to allow everybody to say it) . . . but I enjoy the fun of watching the enemy try to gang up on what seems to be a frail old mage, only to have a really NASTY surprise. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

I think the dragons offer alot of variety. Their human form can be a mage/searcher. They can fly to a far province, check it, and fly back. They can deliver flying troops to quickly support their front line. They can act farther beyond the dominion glow than many pretenders since they can get back very quickly.

I also have had good luck with cast xxxxx, cast xxxxx, cast xxxxx, transform, attack enemy commanders. A good choice of spells can make him 5 times as good. And you almost ALWAYS kill the fleeing commanders which makes for good item scrounging.

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

Oh, one thing I always wondered. If a dragon is in human form with 10 HP, and gets hit for 11 HP, will it die, or transform? And if the dragon form has 100 HP, but the human form is hit for 5 HP (and subsequently transforms into a dragon with 95 HP left)... does the pretender have a 5/10=50% chance of gaining an affliction, or 5/100=5% chance of gaining an affliction?

Without knowing these answers, I've always been afraid to send a dragon into combat in human form.

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Don't forget special blessing bonuses you receive at levels 4 and 9. If you want to boost your blessings, dragons are a good and cheap way to go. IMHO it makes them even more valuable (Nagas as well).

Uhhh...
Wasn't it at levels 4, 6 and 9?

[ October 08, 2003, 05:51: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I disagree. Dragons are not cheap when you take into account their initial dominion of 1. In order to get even a middle of the road 5* dominion you'll spend 105* points; a pretender starting with 3 dominion spends 42* pts. This puts them about on par with one of the 125 pt titans price wise, which is about as expensive as Pretenders come in Dominions.

Now that I think about it, titans are a good comparison from an effectiveness standpoint. Titans can more easily cast spells and fight, can freely use items to boost their combat power, start with more magic, have cheaper suplemental paths, and have cheaper prices for higher dominion. In return a dragon gets a few extra hitpoints, decent natural protection, and a not exactly awe-inspiring breath weapon. Nor are titans particularily potent pretenders...

I like and play Titans as well as Dragons, but I don't let this interfere with my assement of their balance.

* Edit: Oops! Those are the costs for a 6 dominion.

[ October 08, 2003, 10:41: Message edited by: Jasper ]

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">AFAIK there are no Titans, just Titan. There is female Titan though, with 1 in astral and nature but getting any of those to level 9 leaves you with little more then 100 points. The only Titan can get to level 9 in AIR easily and only in AIR which makes your holy troops 75% shock resistant.

And what if you want to use other bonuses instead? Like fire weapons if you get level 9 in fire. Will you use titan for that? Or nature level 9 to give regeneration to your holy ones? Or water level 9 to get quickness? I don't REALLY see what do you have to agree and disagree with my post. My post was not about comparing Titans with Dragons, it was about getting those blessings and Titan can be only used to get Air level 9. If you like Air bonus Titan is way to go, but if you like to get some other bonus you will most certainly NOT use him. Dominion or no dominion.

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

[quote]Originally posted by Nerfix:

Quote:

Uhhh... Wasn't it at levels 4, 6 and 9?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Only level 4 and 9. Why do you think level 6 would give bonus?

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

Sorry Daynarr, I misunderstood you to have meant that dragons are cheap in general. I honestly hadn't even considered starting with a 9 in any field as a viable option, due to the extreme cost.

Hmmm, which indirectly brings up an interesting question. Do the special bonuses to holy troops stem from a Pretender's initial magic skills, or his current magic skills? Can you increase them with items or empowerment? What if you die?

[ October 08, 2003, 10:39: Message edited by: Jasper ]

Re: Nagas and other "lost" pretenders
 

Initial. Empowerment or death makes no difference.