Dead pretender poll
 

This is a spin off from the mind duel discussion. I begun to wonder what people do when their pretender dies and how often this occurs.

Re: Dead pretender poll
 

I'd like to mention that I never have, and never plan to, take Astral on my pretender in MP, because of Mind Duel.

Re: Dead pretender poll
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">True enough, at least not on a pretender you expect to take into alot of combats...

Though it would also depend somewhat on if you know what nations you are up against in advance http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Dead pretender poll
 

I typically like to have Pretenders who can fight well in battle, and losing them due to random chance just happens. It's frustrating when it's due to random chance (e.g. a 30 gold mortal commander attacking my Medusa, not being stoned, actually hitting, and then doing 50+ damage in one swing, but it's not that bad because you had to account for the chance when creating your Pretender anyway.

Note that this poll is a bit self fulfilling: I've never _lost_ a Pretender to Mind Duel, as I rarely play with Astral on a Pretender, and when I do I try to have lots. I have killed Pretenders this way...

After trying Astral Pretenders, I've softened my anti Mind Duel stance, but the expense of at least Astral 5-6 and risk of Astral Pretenders repeatedly dying to Mind Duel still makes me avoid playing them.

Mind Duel is enough to make _many_ players use house rules to ban it's use, and IMHO pretty much hoses Marignon, and greatly adds to Pythium's power (errr, assuming Communion adds to Mind Duel, which I can't be sure about).

Re: Dead pretender poll
 

knowing if mind duel is boosted or not by communion would be really important to know : it would be a major change to the strategy of all astral nations, especially whose which have level 1 or 2 astral mages, like C'tis, Marignon, Jotunheim.

I would much appreciate an answer on this. The weak astral nations would stop to cower when they encounter big bad Arco or Pythium.

Re: Dead pretender poll
 

I don't think Communion effects Magic Duel. That was the conclusion posted on csipgs and, while the test I just ran wasn't statistically significant, it didn't favor the Communion. It might have been significant if I had realized Magic Duel is an area spell!

My test was four sets with four Theurgs and eight Communicants on each side. The Theugs using Communion Master lost 8 of 16. The others lost 12 of 16. Oddly, the attacking teams lost 15 of 16, making me wonder if Magic Duel does still (v1.15) favor the caster? When hitting more then one target does it use the strongest target's magic?

Re: Dead pretender poll
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I recall one of the devs (JK?) saying the attacker still got a bonus, like winning ties or something.

Also, I hadn't realized it was an area spell?! I'm not even really sure what that would mean...
Can a single instance of Magic Duel kick off three Duels?!

[ October 06, 2003, 08:58: Message edited by: Jasper ]

Re: Dead pretender poll
 

[/qb][/quote]I recall one of the devs (JK?) saying the attacker still got a bonus, like winning ties or something.

Also, I hadn't realized it was an area spell?! I'm not even really sure what that would mean...
Can a single instance of Magic Duel kick of three Duels?![/QB][/quote]

More then that if you can find six dwarfs with Astral magic!

Winning ties would leave it 21/15 in favor of the attacker which agrees tolerably with the lab results. It's a pretty significant advantage really.

Re: Dead pretender poll
 

Attacker wins ties.

Re: Dead pretender poll
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Shouldn'it be fairer if defender wins in this case ?
If I've understood the mechanisms (Astral + 1D6), then currently a +1 advantage in Astral gives an attacker 72% to win, and even with -1 he still has 50% !

Re: Dead pretender poll
 

I am only now getting free from my Rainbow Mage syndrome, so i have litle experience with combat pretenders, so i haven't lost a single pretender to Magic Duel, and all my Astral gods have been either RB's or "Astral Kings" with 9 in Astral(i'm practising for Dom II already...).
But i have seen my Starchild(with Starshine Skullcap) killing enemy Wyrm pretender with Astral Duel...

Re: Dead pretender poll
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As I understand it, with a -1 disadvantage the attacker gets only 42% chances to win. Actually the attacker always gets (6-difference)/36 % better odds to win, as long as the difference is less than 6 (then it's either suicide or automatic victory).

Re: Dead pretender poll
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm, yes, it was a bit self fullfilling. I happened to have a third question in my poll setup and wasn't sure how to formulate my question. Take it for what it is (almost pointless).

My main interest was how often people lose their pretenders and how they take it. It is less fun to play when your enemy has almost given up, just because he gambled with his god and lost.

Regarding communion: I'm not sure, but I believe it has an effect. I also believe that all communicants will suffer from the same fate if one of them is slayed in a magic duel (this might be Dom II, or might not be implemented at all, I'll have to ask JK).

Regarding the initiator winning ties. Do you believe the opposite would lessen the impact of magic duels in pretender design and in marignon-arco/pythium balance?

I am feeling a hostile usenet dominion with a strong order scale altering my perceptions. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: Dead pretender poll
 

I would prefer the defender to win tie. Because defenders are generally weaker than the attacking mage. This would help a bit Marignon, Jotun, Ctis, etc. as they would dare a bit much field all their astral mages into battles.

Have you tried to field Witch Hunters (150 gp and astral 1) or Grand Master (270 gp and astral 2) versus Arcoscephale? Ouch, you are left with a bunch of shortcircuited dead mages. These nations (the astral 1&2 level) would be more playable in these circumstances.

Re: Dead pretender poll
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As I understand it, with a -1 disadvantage the attacker gets only 42% chances to win. Actually the attacker always gets (6-difference)/36 % better odds to win, as long as the difference is less than 6 (then it's either suicide or automatic victory).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You're right, D6 are "discrete" and odds can't be 50 % http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif !
Anyway I'd prefer defender to win ties so the attacker has to take more risk. In this case at same Astral level attacker will have 42% to win, and at advantage of +1 will have a 58% chance, seems fair to me.

[ October 06, 2003, 21:09: Message edited by: PDF ]

Re: Dead pretender poll
 

Bold text originally posted by Kristoffer O:

My main interest was how often people lose their pretenders and how they take it. It is less fun to play when your enemy has almost given up, just because he gambled with his god and lost.

I suspect that people who play risky combat pretenders are prepared to deal with the consequences. The skill and item loss from death actually aren't _so_ bad, but getting a bad unhealed affliction can be devestating.

Considering all the powerfull magic running around (including cheap healing magic that will save you from near death!), it seems odd that afflictions are so permanent. This colors the discussion of Curse too.

You seem to have drawn a lot of ideas from Ars Magica, why not treat healing the way they do? Have a 2 nature skill "Heal Affliction" enchantment that costs gems 5-10 "Corpus Vis".

Regarding communion: I'm not sure, but I believe it has an effect. I also believe that all communicants will suffer from the same fate if one of them is slayed in a magic duel (this might be Dom II, or might not be implemented at all, I'll have to ask JK).

Ouch! That could be devestating... Both sides would boost from communion, and the first one to win a Duel would probably win the rest as well.

Regarding the initiator winning ties. Do you believe the opposite would lessen the impact of magic duels in pretender design and in marignon-arco/pythium balance?

Well, it would lessen the impact of Magic Duel, but I still like the Attacker winning ties. The attacker is taking a great risk, and the oppurtunity cost of the time to cast a spell is significant. These costs need to be offset by some advantage, or IMHO Magic Duell will rarely be used outside of extreme skill difference.

IMHO a better tweak would be to simply have Magic Duel do 200 fatigue damage, perhaps with a chance of causing feeblemind. Don't other similar mind attacks work this way?

I am feeling a hostile usenet dominion with a strong order scale altering my perceptions. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Usenet has an _orderly_ dominion? Heh, you must have a damn good flame/troll filter. ;-)

Re: Dead pretender poll
 

Bold Text Originally posted by Pocus:

I would prefer the defender to win tie. Because defenders are generally weaker than the attacking mage. This would help a bit Marignon, Jotun, Ctis, etc. as they would dare a bit much field all their astral mages into battles.

Have you tried to field Witch Hunters (150 gp and astral 1) or Grand Master (270 gp and astral 2) versus Arcoscephale? Ouch, you are left with a bunch of shortcircuited dead mages. These nations (the astral 1&2 level) would be more playable in these circumstances.

But the weaker mages can also stand to gain from the attacker having a Magic Duel edge, as they have a reasonable chance to start a magic duel themselves and win -- even against a mage with more skill.

If defenders win ties, then casting Magic Duel would be spending time to risk a mage in order to maybe a _cheaper_ mage. You'd want to know you had at least +2 and probably +3 more Astral than your target before considering Mage Duel.

Re: Dead pretender poll
 

Easy solution...

A tie results in the death of both (all) mages involved.

Or a tie results in some amount of fatigue for both mages, say 150+

Re: Dead pretender poll
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, it would lessen the impact of Magic Duel, but I still like the Attacker winning ties. The attacker is taking a great risk, and the oppurtunity cost of the time to cast a spell is significant.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I second this, so for now (and if I count well) there's 2 votes pro, and 2 votes con - hem, who will win the tie? ;-)

Re: Dead pretender poll
 

I'd have to say the defender should win ties. It seems now that mages with mainly astral should be scripted to magic duel always. Odds are if he has equal or worse astral mages you kill all his mages and laugh, and if he has better mages he probably wants to magic duel you himself and beating him to it increases your odds.
Astral duel should be a fairly risky venture under almost any circumstances (unless you have an astral-10 mage or something http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) Keep in mind this is a direct attack on enemy mages. Although I honestly think it might be better if the attacker wins on ties BUT the defender gets to use FULL magic skill or +1/2 other magics or something. It makes sense to me, and it would make some of the astral 1/mage/priest units a good deal more useful against astral nations with cheap mages that get a greater than 50% chance to kill them. But that's just my opinion and I freely admit I'm not too experienced.

Re: Dead pretender poll
 

I say let the attacker win ties. If player deems that the mage has enough skill in astral and is willing to risk the die (d6) roll then let her have the edge, however small. That 'small' edge might seem bigger for all you number crunchers, but the dice never do as expected, right?

And IMO the number cruching really has no meaning since the sample group of Magic Duels remains small in any game.

- Humer

edit: It's Magic Duel, not Mind! Bad spelling! Bad!

[ October 07, 2003, 05:32: Message edited by: Humer ]

Re: Dead pretender poll
 

I have a new contribution to this "heated" conversation!

What if nobody wins ties?

Re: Dead pretender poll
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">the problem I see is that you have already very big chances to win a duel even with an edge of +2, and with the tie for you. And +2 is so simple to have when you are Arco or Pythium versus (Marignon, Ctis, Jotun) that they will practically win more than 90% of the duels they initiate. The supremacy IMO is then so great that in a war between an astral 3/4 nation versus an astral 1/2, you are preventing the weaker astral to field any of their mages, thus crippling them enormously before even starting the fight.

I dont have the figures, but I would like to know what is the probability to win a duel, as the defender, when you are at -2 and when you loose tie. Thats must be pretty low.

Would you risk your grand masters at 270 gp apiece, or Witch Hunter (less costly, but even more loosy in an astral duel), knowing that you are facing Arco or Pythium? I dont think so. A single mystic with skull cap and medaillion (to counter the ones Marignon would field) would fries them all.

Re: Dead pretender poll
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">1/6 (17%) if the higher skilled mage initiates the duel, and 10/36 (28%) otherwise. But If the defender has 2 mages who take the risk to magic duel a single mage who's +2 in astral skill, the odds climb to 48%. With 3 mages, that's 61%. So even with winning ties, the risk for the attacker is real.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The greatest threat comes from TPers/gaters, because you can't see them coming. But when that happens the defender has the benefit of the first shot. Look at the numbers above - 2 Witch Hunters cost only 300 gp, and have 48% chance to fry an Arch-Theurg which costs way more if they duel first. Things are not as desperate as you think.

Re: Dead pretender poll
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">1/6 (17%) if the higher skilled mage initiates the duel, and 10/36 (28%) otherwise. But If the defender has 2 mages who take the risk to magic duel a single mage who's +2 in astral skill, the odds climb to 48%. With 3 mages, that's 61%. So even with winning ties, the risk for the attacker is real.

Quote:

Would you risk your grand masters at 270 gp apiece, or Witch Hunter (less costly, but even more loosy in an astral duel), knowing that you are facing Arco or Pythium? I dont think so. A single mystic with skull cap and medaillion (to counter the ones Marignon would field) would fries them all.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The greatest threat comes from TPers/gaters, because you can't see them coming. But when that happens the defender has the benefit of the first shot. Look at the numbers above - 2 Witch Hunters cost only 300 gp, and have 48% chance to fry an Arch-Theurg which costs way more if they duel first. Things are not as desperate as you think.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">ok, I fired XL.

You have indeed 17% chance of winning a duel, if you are at -2 and loosing tie.

Your percentages pertaining to examples where the lower astral nation initiate a duel are exacts, but I dont think many people will have the guts to engage witch hunters in a counter battery of duel against Arco (WH cost nearly the same btw)

I prefer to point out that a single mystic, unenhanced has 69% of killing 2 WH in a row, and 57% to kill three.
Costly enough to warrant that the defender earn the tie IMO.

Re: Dead pretender poll
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Costly enough because you're only considering the worst case: cheapest astral-3 initiating duel vs most expensive astral-1. Now do the same math with an Arch Theurg vs 4 or 5 Star Childs (assuming these fire first), and do a mean before giving figures.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">True in theory, false most of the time in practice, because of the thunder rod effect you have with magic duel, the same one you get when you Vengeance of the Dead somebody :

The highest astral level will be targeted. I wonder if somebody can really send 3/4 archtheurg in a gating party against a weak astral nation, without having at least one enhanced with starshine skull cap and/or astral medallion.

Where as I would not dare pretend that somebody is rich enough to give +1 astral items on astral 1 mages which are more or less in a province to counter a 'possible' gateway.

So in essence the situation you speak of is seldomly, if never encountered, in my humble opinion ( a mere +2 supremacy between an attacking party of a strong astral nation, versus a defensive and/or garrisoning party of a weak astral nation).

Well you can argue that it can happen. Sure. It can also happen to gate 75 summer lions with only one leader, loose the leader by a stray arrow, and have all your lions dissolve*. But I think you speak of situations which have a reasonable chance of happening between players somehow experimented.

* : happened to me in my first pbem, so the example is demonstrative of a newbie attitude http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

so when you spoke of doing a mean, I concur. But do a ponderated mean, with the associated probabilities that the events appear. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ October 07, 2003, 13:39: Message edited by: Pocus ]

Re: Dead pretender poll
 

No Johan, the dogmatic discussions of the newsgroup are not yet in Shrapnel forum. What can lead you to think that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Dead pretender poll
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As long as there is still discussion on a subject I do not think we should worry about dogmatism.

Re: Dead pretender poll
 

A tweak suggestion that occured to me: possibly if Magic Duel cost a gem to cast (consider it a "focusing cost"), that might even things. Then, not only would the attacker be risking death but there'd be a limit to his/her/its "ammo" supply over time, and resources that could be used for other spells, including other offensive choices, would be consumed.

FWIW, I haven't been running into Magic Duel much, but I realize a lot of people script their mages and that would "force" (ugh, what a biased-sounded word, but I can't think of a better one right now) Magic Duel into the mix if they wish to use it. The spell-chooser AI, however, doesn't seem to select it very often. Mind Burn is the big winner there.

Possibly it is because of the risk factor, but I think the fact there are many spells available that can be sent at Groups of enemies instead of single opponents is more likely the root of that decision. It probably also makes a difference that there are totally safe spells (i.e. Mind Burn) that can be pinpointed onto specific targets.

If you add the cost of a gem to the mix, and the AI will now only use gems if it feels it is really necessary, then that would make computer-guided mages (be they enemy or friendly) all the less likely to cast the spell.

Eh, just my 2¢ there. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I also feel like adding, after my reread, that I've been staying out of this one because I just haven't run into Magic Duel very much. (There's no point in me shooting my mouth off on a topic I just don't know all that much about; I'll save that for the ones I'm more familiar with. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

I love Astral Magic, and while some of the new spells are very expensive both to research and to cast, they are really, really potent! This, however, would lead to the enemy not wanting to challenge my empowered front-line mages (they need the boost to cast the high-power spells I love) and my Pretender will always have an Astral of 9+ if I go Astral with him/her/it because of the specific blessing effect it gives. I, myself, haven't tried the spell in question more than once or twice by scripting. It just seems like less of a gamble to send a nice Stellar Fires spell raining down on the poor shmucks, but that's just me; experience with the spell (and I do intend to experiment) may well change my feelings on the matter.

Re: Dead pretender poll
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Steve Andrewartha's "Dark Ages of Grana" game - I was Marignon (a "weak astral nation"), and my Pythium enemy gave up on equipping his AT when he realized they were outmatched in astral power by my Virtue ;-). Yet he still gated parties of 3 AT to support his Atlantian ally - he lost many, but keeping the war in my domain paid for them in the end.

I had the same problem in my own "Bloodfest" game as R'lyeh, dealing with an Abysian player (another "weak astral nation") who apparently had enhanced Warlocks everywhere (astral boosters + crystal matrices + an apparently unending supply of Conjurors - 1 blood/1 death cheap mages he used to cast Sabbath Slave). I still don't know if communion boosts astral level wrt magic duel, but he thought so and was confident, and since I was the invader, he had the luxury to shoot first and fry my best Starspawns' brains (this was before the magic duel bug fix). I kept on sending naked Starspawns in Groups of 5+ to keep him on the defensive.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I now do this routinely when I have 5 or more - and I need only a single item for the whole pack.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You're right, it's rare, but I think the main reason behind this is the magic duel mechanics wasn't completely understood until recently - prior to that everyone thought you had to be insane to equip weak astral mages with any item of importance.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Then let's not forget to add the "cost" of casting the spell itself - after all, an Arch Theurg could summon air elementals instead ;-)

Re: Dead pretender poll
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If it works vs magic duel (never tested it), I think Phoenix Pyre could give your WH enough lives to make this irrelevant. If it doesn't, I can imagine a few scenarii where this counter-battery fire would be the best thing to do - eg, when sitting in a province which the enemy can only reach with gateway. With shamen (who costs roughly half a mystic when you factor in their halved upkeep) I wouldn't hesitate.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Costly enough because you're only considering the worst case: cheapest astral-3 initiating duel vs most expensive astral-1. Now do the same math with an Arch Theurg vs 4 or 5 Star Childs (assuming these fire first), and do a mean before giving figures.