The neutral challenge
 

I got to thinking about “playing as a neutral” after a recent discussion in another topic about switching sides, etc… Another inspiration is the various science fiction stories where a planet (usually Earth) first discovers interstellar travel and finds the galaxy already full of big established empires, but nevertheless rises to great power status itself because of some cultural or technological advantage vs the alien empires (for example, the rise of the Terran Confederation at the expense of the Vilani Imperium in the history of the “Traveller” roleplaying game universe). Also influencing my thoughts is how “Non-Player Races” work in Starfire. There, the NPR does not know about warp points until a player enters their system and contacts them, but thereafter are “activated” and can 4X right along side the players. In other words, they act like an SE4 Neutral until “activated”, then like an SE4 AI Player. So, I thought it might make an interesting challenge to play that way as a human, and see if human smarts vs the AI is enough to win against that sort of head start. I’m in a game where I’m doing that now. I intend to post a formal set of “rules” for this single-player scenario later, but I thought it might be interesting for some folks to read about how it is going so far.

It has not gone as I figured, largely because of board placement. So, lesson #1 for this scenario is start over if you land in a corner, because they might not ever come activate you otherwise. I began in a corner, and after I fully exploited my home system and got bored (no contact YET!), I began very cautious exploration (I expect there will be a “limited activation rule” for that situation). My home system is very near the galactic SE corner, and has three warp points (E, S & W). The one to the E is a dead end – planets but only the one warp point. The one to S has planets but only two warp points, the one to N that connects to my home system and one to W that connects to a black hole system. The black hole system has two warp points, the second of which is N. The E warp point from my home system connects to an asteroid system. The Asteroid system has three warp points, the one to my home system, one S to the black hole system, and one E to “out there”.

So, I’ve colonized all the rock planets in the three systems and converted all their atmospheres. I’m just finishing up colonizing all the ice planets. I’m remote mining everything I can’t colonize via mining satellites. Tech-wise, I’m up to battlecruisers & level IV on the various ship systems, and have monolith facility III’s & research facility III’s everywhere. I’m about ready to come out onto the galactic stage, since they won’t come in after me.

I do know a little about “out there” because I had to do some switching to troubleshoot RCE’s, and because I set the game up to be able to see all scores. There are 8 AI player races, all ahead of me except for ships (because I have a huge mothball fleet – probably won’t allow that before “activation” in the “rules” for future games). They’ve pretty much filled the galaxy, and are fighting wars and making alliances and having a grand old time, unaware of the danger lurking in the dark corner. There were originally 5 neutrals. Two more appeared in mid-game, one of which later disappeared from the score window but still appears in the players window (I think that means it got killed). I assume the mid-game appearances reflect planetary revolts. One of those times I had to go fix an RCE, the race causing the RCE was an “ancient” race and partnered with another race (at war with them next RCE) and the galactic map showed a presence by the partner race in the system connecting to my asteroid system. So, I expect they will be the host for my coming out party. However, I fixed the data file causing the RCE’s several years ago (game time) and haven’t peeked lately. When I Last looked, the AI’s had lots of dreadnoughts and war fleets of over 30 ships. So, my strategy with my 9 BC’s is going to have to be to avoid war and try to pick off one planet at a time under Non-Intercourse, hoping the AI victim has bigger fish to fry on other fronts. I think I’ll need a lot of mines & sats, too. As I get more of an industrial base, I can expand the fleet and get more aggressive.

Re: The neutral challenge
 

Mr. Bill, this sounds like a very interesting concept. Just reading your post, many ideas, drawbacks and advantages popped into my head. This would be the ultimate in Human vs. AI - no more complaining about the weak AI anymore, although playing a regular game w/High(X5) AI bonus on is definately not easy.

I'll check back for more ideas, and possible rules later

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

Re: The neutral challenge
 

Ok - just some ideas off the top of my head but any feedback would be appreciated.

1) Start play in a Large Map - 100+ systems. Try for a position toward the middle. If don't like the starting position, try again.

2) Play w/only NonNeutral AIs - I believe Neutrals tend to slow down the Reg AI empire's expansion.

3) Obviously, no expansion/exporation outside your "Home" system untill 1st contact.

4) Can't select "Ancient" as a Race Charateristic - kinda obvious reason

5) Put a cap on researching Stellar Manipulation past Lvl 2 untill after 1st contact - reason: until you discover that there are warp points via 1st contact, you shouldn't be able to research em. (can't research a car till you know about the wheel)
**Or maybe reorder the Stell Manip tree and move warp tech higher while still allowing research in planet construction.

6) Can't research Applied Intelligence until after 1st contact - reason: if you think you are the only race in existence, then you don't need Intel ops against another race

7) Possibly put a time limit on the isolation - such as, if no contact w/in the 1st 100 turns, allow expansion in some limited fashion (say, can only expand to adjacent systems)

8) Not allowed to place Mines, Sats, Bases, Ships (nothing!) on warp points until after 1st contact - reason: If you don't know Warp Points are there until after 1st C, you shouldn't be able to mine, etc. them

9) To prevent the massive buildup of ships, etc. that Bill mentioned earlier, place a limit on the number of WarShips allowed. Maybe, 5 Capital Ships/1 Carrier Type Ship/2 Supply-Repair-MineLayer-SateliteLayer-Etc. Ships/1 PopTransport Per Planet- No need for a large navy if you're the only race out there. Limit the ships to only a peacekeeping navy size or something.

10) Also should place some type of limit on the number of Troops (say 50 per planet), Mines (?), Sats (say 25?) & WP's per planet till 1st contact.

Limiting military units per planet could represent some type of loose Federation Govt in existence b/t all planets in the system, each w/its own military until news of other races is discovered - which could then allow the basis for a "Unification" of your race under your Supreme Command.

Just some ideas I'm throwin around.



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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

Re: The neutral challenge
 

I have to admit that I really like your idea to play as a neutral after one is discovered. It would be very advantages to this game is Malfador would allow technology level set ups for each individual empire during game set up. That way you could set the technology level of each player where you wanted it, and thus play as the strongest or the weakest player in the game.

Thanks for the game idea here. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

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"We've made too many compromises already, too many retreats! They invade our space and we fall back -- they assimilate entire worlds and we fall back! Not again! The line must be drawn here -- this far, no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done!" -- Patric Stewart as Captain Picard
UCP/TCO Ship Yards

Re: The neutral challenge
 

This is a good RP idea. I recall playing it in the demo, but of course 100 turn limit didn't allow me to finish it. It was VERY interesting though.

Re: The neutral challenge
 

Here are my rules for the Neutral Challenge, based on learnings from my game so far:

The Neutral Challenge is a set of house rules for playing an SE4 scenario in which the human

player is a minor power trying to win against AI empires that have huge head starts. The

basic assumption is that your race is initially unaware of the existence of intelligent life

other than itself, or of what warp points are or how to use them. They remain unaware of

these things until "activated" by an AI empire entering their home system and creating First

Contact. Assume for the purpose of the game that warp points only work through some

deliberate interaction with a ship’s engines, and if you don’t know how to do it then you

can’t "warp". Your race therefore cannot do anything it would not logically do in

isolation. Even in isolation, however, the central government of your race would maintain

armed forces in order to prevent colony worlds within the system from seceding, etc... but

would not stockpile defenses against an imaginary alien threat.

The rules:

1) You cannot use a race having the "Ancient" trait. It is also suggested that you start

over if your home system is in a far corner of the galaxy, as it may take forever for the

AI's to find ad activate you.

2) "Full Activation" occurs when any alien vessel enters a system of your empire and

initiates First Contact. At that point, all restrictions are lifted and you may play

normally.

3) Your race is initially at a state of "Inactivation".

4) While in the state of Inactivation, you must play according to the following

restrictions:

a) No exploring warp points. The AI ministers which would do this automatically must not

be turned on.
b) The total number of units that you have, whether in space, as planetary cargo or as

cargo on ships, cannot exceed the current total cargo capacity of all your planets added

together, plus 1 remote mining satellite per asteroid belt or uncolonized planet. Improved

remote mining satellites can be built in excess of this limit for the purpose of replacing

old ones which are deployed, but the old ones must be brought back to a shipyard and

scrapped as soon as possible.
c) You cannot give any ship or fleet a sector as a destination, unless it contains a planet

or asteroids, unless if it contains a storm and your ship has a storm-destroying component

you wish to use on the storm, or if it contains a star and you are building a ring- or

-sphere world there. You have no reason to go to or hang about in warp point sectors or

empty space, if you are not expecting company.
d) Satellites can only be deployed at colony planets, except for the remote mining

satellites per "b" of this rule.
e) Bases may only be built in sectors containing colony planets, with an exception for

remote mining bases. A remote mining base must use 50% or more of its volume for remote

mining components, and can be built in any asteroid or planet sector, but only 1 per such

sector.
f) You cannot mothball any ship or base.
g) You cannot research any tech which grants only components for opening/closing warp

points or destroying stars, unless they lead to other techs which grant other components

that you are allowed to use. If you discover any such components under that exception, or

via colonizing artifact planets, you still may not build any ships mounting such systems.

Remember - you don't know what a warp point is yet, and why would you destroy your own star?

5) "Full exploitation" of a system is defined as having colonized every planet for which

you have the necessary tech, and having the maximum possible population and number of

facilities on each colony. Once you have fully exploited your home system, your race can

somehow "accidentally" discover warp points. However, your race is still ruled by a very

conservative regime and will only explore one warp point at a time, and will stop exploring

as soon as it finds a system with colonizable planets until that system is also fully

exploited. This state is called "Limited Activivation".

6) Under Limited Activation, the restrictions of #4 still apply with the following addition

and/or changes:

a) You may now move to and warp through warp points, but only to explore the warp point as

allowed in this rule, or to move around between explored systems.
b) You may select one warp point to explore at a time. The selection must be a warp point

in your your home system if possible. If they are all explored, it must be a warp point in

a system one warp point away from your home system. If they are all explored, it must be a

warp point in a system two systems from your home system, etc...
c) If, upon exploring any warp point, you find a system not containing any alien colonies,

ships, units, etc... you must immediately claim that system. If the newly claimed system

contains any habitable planets, you must then fully exploit that system before you can

explore another warp point.
d) Your unit limit is now increased sufficiently to allow one recon satellite per explored

system in which you have neither a colony or a remote mining base.
e) You may now research and build warp point opening and closing components, but you may

not close any warp point that you have not yet explored, or open any warp point to an

unexpored system unless you have explored all systems that you can reach via the existing

warp points.
f) All systems claimed under "c" of this rule count thereafter as "a system of your empire"

for purposes of causing full activation under rule #2. In other words, if aliens enter

them, or you come back to them and find aliens in them, you are fully activated.
g) If, upon exploring any warp point, you find a system not containing any alien colonies,

ships, units, etc... you are Fully Activated and all restrictions are limited.

7) OPTIONAL (harder) Ignore "G" in Rule #6. If, during exploration under Limited

Activation, you enter any system containing alien ships, colonies or units, you then move to

a state of "Defensive Activation". Defensive Activation is also invoked if your exploring

fleet hits mines, whether or not they survive and whether or not they swept any of the

mines. The system containing the mined sector counts as a system containing enemy units.

Under "Defensive Activation", your race's leadership wants to pursue an "ostrich" stategy -

ignore the aliens and hope they go away. You are still not taking a rational approach to

the galaxy (kind of like an SE4 neutral). You must immediately withdraw the exploring

ship(s) back through the warp point by which they entered the system with the alien

presence. Under Defensive Activation, all the restrictions of Limited Activation apply with

the following modifications:

a) You cannot again transit any warp point which you know through exploration, or believe

by looking at the warp lines on the galaxy map, leads to a system in which you found an

alien presence during initial exploration. You may continue to explore other warp points as

in Limited Activation.
b) You may not send any Messages to the race(s) you encountered, not even replies to their

Messages.
c) You may now station fleets, build bases or deploy units in the sectors of your systems

which contain the warp points that you cannot transit under "a" of this rule. Mines &

satellites deployed in such sectors do not count toward your unit limit. You still cannot

fortify the unexplored warp points that you believe lead to unexplored systems, or which

connect the systems that you have claimed.
d) You may use warp point closing components to close the warp points that you are allowed

to fortify.
d) If aliens enter your claimed system via one of the warp points you have fortified per

"c" of this rule, and do not survive either the transit (because of your mines) or the

immediate battle with your other defenses in that sector, full activation does not occur.

For this reason, you may wish not to excercise your option under "c" of this rule to fortify

your end of the warp point, or under "d" to close it, so as to expedite Full Activation.

Re: The neutral challenge
 

Originally posted by Barnacle Bill:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>5) "Full exploitation" of a system is defined as having colonized every planet for which

you have the necessary tech, and having the maximum possible population and number of

facilities on each colony.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bill, took a little time Last nite and played under almost the identical set of rules (basic anyway - haven't gotten to the advanced part situation yet) you laid out and so far so good. It's actually pretty fun and I found myself getting into the RP aspect of the scenario. My only major change to your set of rules has to do w/the above quote.

I found myself saying "What would a race w/this many planets in its system do?" Find some way to colonize em, of course!

So my theory of Full Exploitation was expanded to be defined as the colonization of ALL planets in the system. If I didn't have the necessary tech to colonize em, I'd research it. My theory is, the races need for living space would drive em to take full advantage of available planets before they leap into the unknown. The "taking full advantage" included in my game the conVersion of the atmosphere of all planets to one breathable by my race. So, b/f I will allow (haven't reached that stage yet) my race to go to the limited exploration mode, I am requiring em to utiliize ALL the planets in their system to their maximum theoretical capacity. (colonize em & modify the atmosphere to their required atmosphere)

I'm on turn 109 (2410.9) and so far, no contact.

I set my game up in a large (200 system) galaxy, Med tech cost, Low tech start, 1 planet start on/Good, 5000 pt races, w/High(I think) Random Empire generatio (after including the EA, Darlock & Sergetti) - total empires in game 12 plus mine.

The Med tech cost seems to be the right choice - low is too easy, and high is, well, too high. Med allows a steady advancement.

My race is a Gas Giant breathing Carbon Dioxide.(max facilities on non CD worlds) I was lucky and started in a system w/2 CD worlds so I had a bit of an andvantage. I colonized the other habitable CD GG and started building Research Fac'ties like made. Scrapped a couple of Min Fac'ty on Homeworld and built RFs in there place.

There were also 3 other GG worlds in the system, so I colonized them. The only ships I've built are colony ships & 1 pop transport to do the "forced Relocation of my people".

All the while I'm researching anything that will help me in research. Got Computers. Got Appl Res II. Researched Cargo III - limited resource supply so needed to save what I did have. My RP goal after colonizing the 3 nonCD colony worlds was "My people need more space in which to live, so I must find some way to convert these 3 worlds." I researched till I got Atmo Conver Plant I and now in the year 2411.2 my 3 worlds will expand from 5 facilities to 25 each. At this point after more "forced Relocations", I believe my race would turn their research to finding a way to utilize the other 5(?) or so Rock & Ice planets in the system.

Even though my system is not in an ideal location - it's 1 system from the Western edge of the Galaxy - I haven't been discouraged by the lack of contact. Getting into the RP aspect of the race is rather enjoyable. Once all the planets in my Home system have been utilized (if I still haven't achieve 1st contact) I'll go into the Limited Exploration mode - hop to the next system, max out the planets and go to the next, etc.

Another note in the RP aspect - after building my 3 Atmo Conv Plnts, I found my alter ego, the leader of my race, becoming paranoid that with the near future pop explosion his rule might be placed in jeopardy. This mindset led to the advances in research of Ship Construction & Weapon & Shield Technologies. He is about to build, for the 1st time in my races history, a standing navy to ensure his lines succession.

I recommend playing this scenerio to any but the most bloodthirsty of players. It is, so far, enjoyable.


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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

Re: The neutral challenge
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhiteHojo:
7) Possibly put a time limit on the isolation - such as, if no contact w/in the 1st 100 turns, allow expansion in some limited fashion (say, can only expand to adjacent systems)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In this vein, perhaps a better (IMO) solution would be to allow you to send 1 fleet through a single warp point per 10 years (or more). This would represent "generation" ships, slow ships, or whatever else you're calling 'em.

Re: The neutral challenge
 

My original 100 arbitrary limit has been shown by my experience anyway, to be a little soon.

100 turns in an Isolated empire is not that long when compared to 100 turns in a regular game. The amount of micromanagement is minimal. So I would take Bills idea after adapting it to my take on "full exploitation" of a system and use that for expansion, removing any arbitrary turn limit.

I think the "Nuetral Challenge" should probably be labled as an "Isolation Challenge". That seems to be the spirit of what the rules have evolved into. No outward exploration until all available options have been exhausted.

Limiting exploration to one system after Full Exploitation could be justified in various ways. It could mean that your empire has not discovered Warp Points but simply some feasable way to travel to the nearest system - slow colony ships, etc.

The key is to limit your exploration and expansion of your empire into the rest of the galaxy until you have achieved 1st contact.

At least this is my belief, subject to modification upon further play testing.

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

Re: The neutral challenge
 

I've gone 400 turns so far without first contact. I seem to be in such a corner that the AI's may never find me, unless I go out after them.

The definition of full exploitation that requires you to develop all the colonization techs and convert all the atmosheres would tend to make that even longer.

However, I see that as a matter of personal choice. I enjoy the game like this, but those looking for a lot of conflict would not. Don't forget the long term promise of challenging conflict, when you make first contact & discover you are WAY behind http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: The neutral challenge
 

My worst fear - play 400+ turns and 1st contact is a fleet of 20+ Heavy Carriers from the EA who promptly "annex" my little empire into theirs w/no time to build up my defenses.

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

Re: The neutral challenge
 

Well, the &lt;ahem&gt; fun twist to what I was proposing was something more along the lines of you being able to send 1 fleet through 1 warp point every 100 turns. If you only send 3 colony ships and there's 10 inviting planets, tough; it's gonna be another 10 years before the other 7 colony ships get there (or if you're really nasty, 10 + build time + 10...). But then I've always wanted a space game which makes you plan ahead years by making your ships take years to get from point A to B...

Re: The neutral challenge
 

This may be an unnecessary point, but what if you fully exploit your system, go next door, and find a neutral? I'd be inclined to stay isolated, but that's me.

Re: The neutral challenge
 

I tried something similar a while back. I got bored with the game I was playing because I was too far ahead so I switched to the Last-place neutral. This was around 120 turns into the game. I played for a while and was fortunate enough to discover another neutral nearby. I destroyed their fleet and all of their planets in successive turns but they would not surrender even when reduced to their home planet only. I also could not get ANY other race to agree to ANY type of treaty. I E-mailed Malfador to see if this was a bug or why this happened but never heard back. Have any of the rest of you encountered this problem? Like most of you, I really liked the idea of starting from a significant disadvantage, and was disappointed that I was unfairly handicapped by not being able to make peace with anybody or get a surrender from a defeated foe.

Re: The neutral challenge
 

I am currently doing a modification, went 150 turns, then sent scout out --- found 1 system with planets and the other empty. So I am in full expansion/exploitation of that syste, plus just got gasss colonization. So I may sit and fully get things up to snuff, then send another scout out.

I did it this way because I honestly just got bored...so I modified the concept a bit ;p

Re: The neutral challenge
 

if you are getting to bored waiting for 1000 turns to pass, you can go into your options and turn off the log pop-up and the end turn confirmation. then just put something on top of the end turn button (F11? F12?) and go grab a beer or three.

edit: i know, what if you miss the invasion. save the game, let advance for 15 minutes, check, save again. not hard. when invaded, just repeat the Last 15 minutes while watching.

[This message has been edited by Puke (edited 31 January 2001).]

Re: The neutral challenge
 

Okay, so why doesn't someone experiment with setting this "house rules" game type up just right, in a perfect start location, and then save the game every x number of turns as they play. If it turns out to be a really great game, they could take an early savegame (around 50-100 turns) and post it in the mod section here. Then everyone could download and play essentially the same exact scenario using their own style of play from that point on. Then you could compare the differing experiences of the players afterwards.

Of course this wouldn't work with any mods installed but it certainly would after the next patch is released when everyone will be able to run the default data files anytime regardless of the number of mods installed.

Re: The neutral challenge
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ealbright:
This may be an unnecessary point, but what if you fully exploit your system, go next door, and find a neutral? I'd be inclined to stay isolated, but that's me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is another good reason not to use Nuetrals in the game. Just make sure in the game setup you turn off the Random selection of computer nuetral empires.

Played some more Last nite on my experimental game. It should be noted that my game had tech cost set to Med. By turn 175 I had researched all colony techs and had colonized and converted all the atmospheres to my natural preference. I believe I had 4 GG huge, 1 GG large, 1 Rock Huge, 1 rock large, 1 Ice med & 1 rock tiny in my system.

At this point I decided to do Bills limited exploration idea. sent 1 ship to the S WP - empty but for asteroids. Sent 1 to the NE WP - empy. Sent 1 to the NW WP - BOOM - Mines. Sent another (home never knew what happened to the 1st ship, never transmitted anything I guess) - Boom. repeat - finally ran out of mines and had 1st contact w/Terrans. They had been sitting next door for who knows how long and for some reason mined the WP leading into my system - all w/o ever contacting me - makes me wonder how they knew to mine that point?

Anyway, another observation I found is that with my 11 planets and 7 Cruisers (must keep the population in line) I was in 3rd place out of 13. go figure.

I think I'll try again w/another scenerio. A helpful idea I found - use Gas Giant as your starting race and hope for another colonizable world in your home system - then build nothing but research facilities.

It is definately a fun way to play.



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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

Re: The neutral challenge
 

This sounded so cool that I thought I'd try it. I didn't have the "rules" at home, so I just played it by ear. I set up a rock/oxygen race and started the game in a large quadrant with a high density of computer generated races but no neutrals. I was dropped into a system that had precisely one other rock planet and one rock moon in it. Everything else was gas giant or ice. I colonized the available planet and moon, and spent almost all of my initial research on planet utilisation (sp.?) and gas giant colonization, figuring that I'd have plenty of time before first contact to get things going. Lo and behold, turn 26 comes along and I get a visit from a race (one of the ones I downloaded, can't remember which, right now) that turned out to be three systems removed from mine. I hadn't researched any ship or weapon technology to that point. I threw together a basic missile escort design and a missile weapon platform design and did a little bit of emergency build. I was able to get a trade alliance with them, but then they decided to get mad and go to war with me (not sure why). Fortunately, I had found a couple of decent systems in another direction from them, once I had been "activated", and I had some new colonies going to support a little more production. I have had to use the "missile dance" alot, since his ships are quite a bit advanced over mine, but I am starting to get the upper hand now.

All in all, I find this a very interesting way to start a game. It gives you a little sense of desperation when you suddenly find yourself confronted by superior technology. Some of the weaknesses in the AI actually fit into the roleplaying in this case, since you are outwitting the technologically superior aliens to defeat them.

Re: The neutral challenge
 

Alpha nails the joy of this style (for me anyway) - the uncertainty.

You think contact might come at anytime but you can never be sure. My 175 turns were filled w/more tension and a sense of urgency than I could recall feeling in any other game of SE4.

My next recommendation would be to max out the number of Computer Active Empires in a game (I have seen, I believe, 20 total empires at one time) - this would increase the likelyhood of 1st contact at a reasonable time but it does tend to make turns take a rather long amount of time - lots of empires, w/lots of stuff to do.



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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

Re: The neutral challenge
 

ack, I just ran into the Amokirie and a Sw race the Trade Federation (who is number 1 BTW)...and right off I po'd my race (my custom one, Brachyura) as I get trade with them instead of war. I had no intel until Last turn. gawd, this is gonan get nasty. they are both 3 systems away but are waay beyond me in tech (both in sips/weapons and everything else) not to mention I ran into the XiChung who DID declare war, but no battles to satisfy the Brachyura blood-lust.

guess I'll see how long I Last tonight.. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

[This message has been edited by pathfinder (edited 01 February 2001).]

Re: The neutral challenge
 

Well, I managed to force the Romii (the first race I encountered) to surrender. Now I have a little better tech situation (including Ice Colonization http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif) so the game will probably settle into a more normal pattern. I think that the earlier first contact made it a lot easier for me than if it had come after 100 turns or so, since the technology gap wasn't too bad. Although, even missile dancing was tough when I had escorts and frigates with CSM Is and he had destroyers and light cruisers with CSM IIIs. Fortunately for me, I was always able to bring more forces to a single point than he was. I still have a long way to go to conquer the quadrant, so who knows what will happen next.

I definitely think that I will start the next game I play the same way. It makes things really interesting up front.

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Ursoids of the galaxy, unite!

Re: The neutral challenge
 

Well, I started another game w/the Nuetral Challenge rules. To my amazement and delight, I actually started in a system w/2 other fully colonizable planets - 1 GG Huge & 1 GG large both w/Carbon Dioxide atmosheres (which my current race breathes)... this should make for a rather advantageous start for my little isolated empire. This setup will give me 3 fully colonizable worlds on which to start my empire.

I noticed ColdSteels earlier post and did happen to mave a savegame at turn 25 and wouldl be happy to post it if anyone is interested. My starting stats were Gas Giant native, Carbon Dioxide breathers. 5000 pt race startup. 13 total races - EA, Sergeti, Darlock & 2 others I downloaded from USY are included in the mix. Tech level start is low. Tech level cost is Med. 1 planet start w/Good quality homeworld - all players start w/same size planet. 1000 unit limit and 500 ship limit (not that they actually work). no victory conditions (I don't like limits).

I can't guarantee anything but it is in a pretty good starting setup (best I've ever come across) and is located in a fairly central system on the big map (home system has 3 WPs)...

I'll wait till Monday and then post my experiences if nobody indicates they wish to try the file. (its kinda neat to tell other people how my little fantasy empire does - my wife never seems to find the fascination in it that I do - oh well)

Take care and good playin...

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[This message has been edited by WhiteHojo (edited 03 February 2001).]

Re: The neutral challenge
 

2441.2: First Contact at Last - An Amon'krie colony ship warped into the asteroid system that connects to my homeworld.

Re: The neutral challenge
 

Started a Neutral Challenge using Mod Pack 1.01 and SunDevil's(?) political mod. Set systems to 254 and started a large mid-life cluster w/ max enemies (no neutrals) at max difficult (no bonus tho) and added EA, Darloks and Sergetti. My race is rock/hydrogen. So I start the game and look down to see where I begin. Very top left corner of the map (doh!). I have only 2 WPs (North and South). The N WP looks like it leads to a dead-end system (guessing) in the very top left corner (more so than me). My home planet is one space south of this WP BTW.

I'm thinking, doh, guess I'm gonna want to start over. Then I look at my planets and see:

Homeworld:
hydrogen/medium/good 97/96/100

Other Rock Planets:
hydrogen/huge/mild 59/149/150
hydrogen/medium/mild 116/21/107
hydrogen/small/good 130/136/81
carbon/large/optimal 105/13/47
carbon/medium/mild 113/50/43
carbon/tiny/good 50/41/137
none/small/unpleasant 27/138/64

Gas Giant:
carbon/huge/unpleasant 36/94/32

Ice Planets (both moons around the huge planets in the system):
none/tiny/good 54/103/94
none/tiny/unpleasant 71/12/25

Argh! I just can't bail on a start like that! So I get going, cranking out research fac. all over the place. I've got all the breathable planets colonized on turn 12 (2401.2) when, WTF, first contact!!! *cry* And from the N WP, only one move from my homeworld. I have no offensive units of any kind and no offensive tech researched. Thankfully they (the Phong) pulled back.

Re: The neutral challenge
 

A nice variation to the neutral challenge:

I started a normal game, high difficulty, medium bonus for AI, but it turned out to be far too easy. then I noticed that one of the colonies of one of the AI players had rebelled and started it's own empire, I have turned my own empire to computer control, and am playing the rebels now.

The rebels started out on a ice/none moon wich they can't breath, they already had quite a lot of technology (same as their original empire) and, luckily they had signed a trade and research alliance with the empire they rebbeled from.

Since all nearby planets are colonized by my 'friends' I am completely depending on remote mining and the trade and research alliance for income. I haven't yet encountered other races, but if I will I'll try to sign a treaty with them, so I am no longer dependant on the race I rebbeled from for my income and can declare war and free my people from slavery...

[This message has been edited by henk brouwer (edited 04 February 2001).]

Re: The neutral challenge
 

Ok - an observation on the N.C.(Nuetral Challenge - tired of spelling it out)...

It seems that if left alone for 150-190 turns I seem to be able to obtain 1st or 2nd place out of 13 races w/o building any warships at all. W/tech cost on Med and low tech start, if left alone, most players should be able to maximize colonize your home system (max pops/fac on all planets).

My tactic is start as GG race and concentrate research on anything that will increase your research output - computers, applied research, etc. Build nothing but Reas Fac w/the occasional Storage fac & resource prod fac when needed. After est. a nice Reas output, start on colony techs and planet utilization techs.

I don't know what the impact of early discovery might be w/this strat b/c I haven't ever been discovered in this pattern.

My desire w/this scenerio is to find myself in the position of the underdog in the galaxy - to paraphrase Ming the Merciless in Flash Gordon, "Hurling myself in the Void w/o the faintest notion of what lies beyond".. all w/o the physical hurling of my pathetic little empire untill found.

So I started a new N.C. w/computer bonus on Low - 30 turns into it and I'm still in 12th place (Last), by a fairly large margin. So maybe I'll get my wish this time.

A side question - Low computer bonus gives the AI a 2X bonus in all areas, but when looking at the scores of all races, are the computers numbers before the bonus is applied or after the bonus is applied? (ex - if race 1 is showing 24.0K Research points per turn, is it producing 12K per turn bumped to 24K or is it actually producing 24K but using 48K?

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

Re: The neutral challenge
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhiteHojo:
Ok - an observation on the N.C.(Nuetral Challenge - tired of spelling it out)...

&lt;snip&gt;

So I started a new N.C. w/computer bonus on Low - 30 turns into it and I'm still in 12th place (Last), by a fairly large margin. So maybe I'll get my wish this time.

&lt;snip&gt;

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You may indeed get your wish....

I started a new game and decided to give the AI a low bonus for pretty much the same reason. I got first contact with the Sergetti (sp?) on turn 37. We were naturally at war within a couple of turns. He has light cruisers with DUC 4s, CSM 3s and PDs. I have frigates (just finished researching destroyer) with DUC 2s and CSM 1s. I don't know how this is going to play out yet, but the first combat was a rude awakening.

I have played this set up a number of times and this game (turn 37) was the longest I have been left alone. I always pick the defaul large quadrant, either mid-life, spiral or galactic edge, with a high number of computer races but no neutrals. I almost envy those who get left alone for more than 100 turns.

Re: The neutral challenge
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhiteHojo:
A side question - Low computer bonus gives the AI a 2X bonus in all areas, but when looking at the scores of all races, are the computers numbers before the bonus is applied or after the bonus is applied? (ex - if race 1 is showing 24.0K Research points per turn, is it producing 12K per turn bumped to 24K or is it actually producing 24K but using 48K?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If the score is showing 24K that race is producing 48K. The bonus is applied after these numbers - could be a bug, but I am not sure.

Re: The neutral challenge
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
He has light cruisers with DUC 4s, CSM 3s and PDs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This sounds like my Sergetti http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif. Good luck. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif
Make sure you tell us how it went, so I could improve them more.

Re: The neutral challenge
 

You guys should try what Henk Brouwer suggested in his post in this thread. I did things alittle differently...did a little Role Playing as to a disasterous even on my home world(nuclear war, accident, etc...).

So anyways when I began the game I built one colony ship and sent it out having ditched my homeworld(abandoned...). I settled the poorest planet in my system and went from there. Did a little more role playing stipulating that I couldn't colonize my original homeworld for at least 100 turns due to high radiation levels or somesuch...

Anyways it was quite fun. You start out with a MAJOR population deficit and lack of research and production...quite fun.

Being ever the resourceful one, however, I have since claimed 5th place out of 16 and am beating everybody I've contacted in resources and research so it's not all bad...



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"He's dead, Jim."-- Lt. Commander Leonard "Bones" McCoy |Chief Medical Officer / USS Enterprise (NCC-1701)

Re: The neutral challenge
 

update on the low AI bonus N.C. I mentioned in my Last post.

1st contact was achieved around yr 2412.0. The now hated Pionda race (look like rock faces). This very unfriendly race promp'tly attacked my homeworld - fortunately my race was rather suspicious of this strange new intruder so was able to put up a couple of small WP w/PDs & TPs - beat off the attack.

This incident, needless to say, led me to view ALL new races with suspicion, not initiating contact w/any new race untill they approached me 1st a verrrry nervous way to play if you're a small, weak empire hoping to not get crushed.

At 1st contact, I was in 11th (the EEE were actually in Last by a few points). But the notable thing was that the EA were already in 1s w/1.2 Million points to my lowly 112K (I had jacked up the Mega Evil Empire setting to kick in at 1 Mill and 200% of 2nd score - I believe EA was MEE at this time)

Anyway, I expanded to 2 neighboring systems, continued fighting my little personal war w/the Rock Heads - made Partnership treaties w/the 2nd & 3rd place races and have a TR treaty w/the EA - after I glassed one of their colonies in my adjacent systems (nothing makes me madder than goin thru all the trouble of building a Col Ship, sending it to the system to colonize a green plus world and finding that I was beat to it by some other race!!!) Fortunately the EA weren't too concerned w/the loss of 1 of their 195 planets (I had 5 - I am in such trouble).

I have clawed my way to 6th place, control 4 systems have 20 ships (cruiser/Lt Cruiser), have around 55K RPs, & 8K Int Points... of course, the EA have 2.5 Million in score, something like 100K Intel Pts, and over 200 ships & 1000 units (game limits were supposed to be 1000 units & 500 ships - on a 200 system galaxy - all pts were b/f the bonus is added, 2X I believe)

Pray for the mighty Nar Empire - now I know how Switzerland felt in WWII - the whole galaxy is at war and I'm trying to just survive.

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[This message has been edited by WhiteHojo (edited 08 February 2001).]

Re: The neutral challenge
 

WhiteHojo wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...fortunately my race was rather suspicious of this strange new intruder so was able to put up a couple of small WP w/PDs & TPs - beat off the attack.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You beat them back with toilet paper? I'm impressed.

Re: The neutral challenge
 

Never underestimate the power of a good roll of Charmin!!!!

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

Re: The neutral challenge
 

Well Zanthis, he said he was being attacked by the rock-faced Pionda's.

Everybody knows paper covers rock.

But watch out for the scissor people WH!

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon10.gif

Re: The neutral challenge
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daynarr:
This sounds like my Sergetti http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif. Good luck. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif
Make sure you tell us how it went, so I could improve them more.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, it's your Sergetti alright. I haven't had much time to play (some strange thing called work keeps getting in the way) but I have run through several turns since the initial combat. I backed off and started trying to build up. So far I have seen nothing of the Sergetti. I don't know if they are going to come after me soon, or if they are going to give me time to build up what is at least a semi-functional defense. Time will tell....

Re: The neutral challenge
 

I play like this all the time, I do not research any weapons until first contact. I only explore one sytem at a time. The game I am playing now has 14 races and 200 systems.
made contact on my 3rd turn, they entered my home system and sent a trade treaty. they have not been back since. they nor have they explored beyond thier home system which is next to mine. I never sned ships into their system nor beyond their system. My next contact came after I had moved two systems out. This race declared war on me. since I do not explore beyond one system at a time, I had no idea how meny systems they own.
I never use the map to look this up. once war is declared I switch to weapons research. I also impose a rule that I can not glass any planets. they must be captured. In 4 weeks real time playing 3 hours a day, I have captured 30 planets in 5 systems from them. but have 6 races in my empire since it seems that they like to either capture other Ie races or use subVersion to get planets to join them. only 4 planets that I have captured had the crystal race I was fighting. hope I find their home system soon. plus the game now reports 3 new races are out there somewhere.
Yet I have yet to run across the actual empires of the races that once owned these worlds. 2 still only have 2 known races. They all seem to be voiding the war zone.

Re: The neutral challenge
 

Well, I got a chance to play about 20 more turns, and while I got one message from the Sergetti threatening to kick me out of one of my outlying systems, I have not seen anything of them, other than when one of my scouts encountered a perimeter system of theirs. I have avoided entering any systems that I know are theirs because I know that I am still technologically inferior to them. Much longer without contact, though, and I may probe their defenses a little, because I'm starting to get into a little better shape militarily.

Re: The neutral challenge
 

Just an idea for a new N.C. house rule:

Once you max out your home system, you can start to build unarmed (only) scouts and colony ships to send to adjacent systems, but
they can only have ONE engine component. This simulates the premise that early warp technology is incredibly bulky and early warp-capable ships will be very slow. Until Activation, only ships with a speed of 1 are allowed to utilize warp points.

Also, this may be completely suicidal, but I'm going to say no weapons research until Activation or until I colonize a planet with ruins. That would at least give me a hint that I am not alone in the galaxy. So until until then, I'll have nothing but "police" boats with DUC I's and Missle I's. First contact will be suitably scary.

I'm going to apply the new Mod Pack 1.50 tonight and start my first NC game using these rules and the rules suggested in previous Posts. It should be a bLast!

Re: The neutral challenge
 

Also, I agree that turning off neutrals in an N.C. game is probably a good idea.

Finding a neutral next door and either fighting a war or building an alliance with a similarly handicapped neighbor would be interesting. I could attack them, but only using my speed 1 ships, because I'm not really fully warp-capable yet!

But on the downside, neutrals seem to be "borders" for AI empires. I've only played a few games of SE4 so far, but I don't recall ever making first contact with an empire that had expanded beyond a neutral whose system acted as a chokepoint. So the presence of neutrals will probably (on average) really slow down the onset of First Contact and Activation.

Re: The neutral challenge
 

hehe, Tater, i did that myself in my current game...

now in 4th palce with myself, phong and tolyatan at war with #3 sergetti...phong are #1 with tolyatan a close 2d. currently we are, all 3 of us in partnership.


I tell ya though, those first 100 or so turns were scary 'cause on initial contact the piudon (now kaput) declared war....was a bit dicey with them until the partners of mine also declared war too http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[This message has been edited by pathfinder (edited 14 February 2001).]

Re: The neutral challenge
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by taterbill:
But on the downside, neutrals seem to be "borders" for AI empires. I've only played a few games of SE4 so far, but I don't recall ever making first contact with an empire that had expanded beyond a neutral whose system acted as a chokepoint. So the presence of neutrals will probably (on average) really slow down the onset of First Contact and Activation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I find them to be bothersome if their system has access to the only way into another cluster. They slow me down because they always declare war on me eventually and attack any of my ships that enter their system. Very annoying, so I either conquer them, annihilate them, or heavily escort colony ships and transports while in that system.



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--
"What do -you- want?" "I'd like to live -just- long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I would look up into your lifeless eyes and wave like this..." *waggle* "...can you and your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"

Re: The neutral challenge
 

Totally random point, but sorta related to neutrals;

Anyone who wants to use that delightful generic shipset, all you have to do is create a folder called 'Neutral' in your se4dir/pictures/races/ directory, and put in a few Neutral_AI files.

Then you can play the neutral challenge feeling just like a totaly technologically archaic race would.

Theres been alot of feedback to this post, I'm just gonna have to try to play a game like that - since it did take me 30 minutes to read the other Posts. . .

Re: The neutral challenge
 

bump

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.